Before I begin I want to say that I don't hate the rogue or think it needs any buffs or that it sucks. I personally really like the rogue class as a whole. However I'm wondering why Rogues don't get a fighting style, but every other martial class does with the exception of barbarian (I'm not including Monk because they basically have unarmed fighting). I think it would fit both mechanically and aesthetically for the rogue to have some, not all, of the fighting styles. If they had a fighting style I think they would include, at level two, Archery, Two Weapon Fighting, Dueling, Defense, and Thrown Weapon Fighting from TCoE. Like a rogue who specializes in throwing daggers and ranged weaponry, or a duel wielding rogue, or a rogue who slinks in the shadows and doesn't like to get hit. Any one else agree? I'm curious as to why Rogues don't get fighting styles.
A Rogue's main feature is their "Sneak Attack": baked-in burst damage that is only granted with advantage, or having an ally within 5ft proximity to the target.
Such is this burst damage, it requires the benefits of "Fighting Styles" significantly less-so than the other martial classes, who lean on these styles for their Extra Attacks, gradually stacking their damage.
However, the "Fighter-Rogue" multiclass is rather popular specifically because it gives you exactly that; a Rogue's "Sneak Attack" with a Fighter's "Fighting Styles"...all at just a single level.
It should be said, since you mentioned Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, that Rogue's CAN now get a Fighting Style without multiclassing...the new feat allows any character to learn a Fighting Style, if feats are allowed at your table.
I, too, wish to make a dagger-tossing Rogue now. : )
Yeah I had considered that sneak attack might be a "fighting style" but using that same thought process could the Fighter's second wind or the Rangers favored enemy be a fighting style too? Because second wind is sort of like interception? I do see your point though
You can actually get a Fighting Style by selecting the new Fighting Initiate feat. I would certainly get Archery for my Archer Rogue after max DEX.
Personally, I don’t like Sharpshooter and Xbow Expert for Rogues, so past level 4-8 when you already have maxed your DEX, leverage the Archery Fighting Style would be awesome.
That all depends on what how you want to play your Rogue. I mean the Archery Fighting style would be great if you are planning on playing the Sniper Rogue, the thrown weapon fighting also seems like it would be a great fighting style if you want to play that stabby rogue that throws daggers.
Being a rogue you also get more ASI than any other class other than fighter, so you can always pick it up later if you want to get that 20 in Dex early, etc.
Personally, I would pass on styles that add damage on hit as those are designed to be balanced based on extra attacks. That narrows it down to archery or defense for me, depending on if I were going ranged or melee primarily.
If I were picking it up as a feat, there are other feats I would want before I went looking at the fighting style one. Before archery, I would probably pick up crossbow expert as the extra attack is worth more than the extra chance to hit. Before defense I would take dual wielder and/or defensive duelist.
If you plan to use thrown dagger, the Thrown Weapon fighting style is a must because while you can draw as much ammo as you need to, you can only draw one weapon for free per turn.
So when given the choice should a rogue take ASI or fighting styles?
ASI always. DEX will increase your To Hit, damage, AC, skill checks (Stealth+) & Initiative.
Once your DEX already reached 20, then you are good to play with some feats. Although most of them are not particularly good for Rogues.
- Sharpshooter: the damage increase is awesome, but the To Hit penalty is terrible. And since you only have one attack, I think the opportunity cost is too high. Sneak Attack should be your main source of damage.
- Crossbow Expert: This is a really good way to attack two times and ensure you’ll land your lovely SA damage, but I often think the conflicts in bonus action usage are hard to pass. Cunning Action is one of the best defensive tools in the hands of a Rogue, that also potencialize offense. I rather boost my To Hit (with Fighting Initiate for Archery) and put my Cunning Action to play all the time.
- Defensive Duelist: It’s a great feat, but you already have Uncanny Dodge locked in your reaction. I don’t think Rogues have enough ASIs to afford Defensive Duelist.
So when given the choice should a rogue take ASI or fighting styles?
Take the one you think is the most fun. People talk about raw numbers and math a lot. They are relevant, but they are not the whole story. If you think a feat to grab a fighting style is more fun, take the feat. And the cannoli.
You can actually get a Fighting Style by selecting the new Fighting Initiate feat. I would certainly get Archery for my Archer Rogue after max DEX.
Personally, I don’t like Sharpshooter and Xbow Expert for Rogues, so past level 4-8 when you already have maxed your DEX, leverage the Archery Fighting Style would be awesome.
I'd probably go vhuman and take it (archery) at level 1. I like hitting things.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
If you plan to use thrown dagger, the Thrown Weapon fighting style is a must because while you can draw as much ammo as you need to, you can only draw one weapon for free per turn.
Rogue only gets one attack per turn unless you're using two weapon fighting, in which case you need to draw the second weapon before you throw the first to be able to throw it as a bonus action. This means your feat (assuming that's how you get your fighting style) would be better used on dual wielder. If you're getting the fighting style a different way, two weapon fighting would provide a larger bonus to damage.
If you have two daggers in your hands then you only need to draw one to throw three in total. Critical Role's Vax does it using Haste (granted by a magic item in his case) for the second normal attack, and a bonus action attack, though I've no idea if he did it correctly by RAW every single time (no proficiency on the third dagger), it was definitely possible to do it.
If you plan to use thrown dagger, the Thrown Weapon fighting style is a must because while you can draw as much ammo as you need to, you can only draw one weapon for free per turn.
Rogue only gets one attack per turn unless you're using two weapon fighting, in which case you need to draw the second weapon before you throw the first to be able to throw it as a bonus action. This means your feat (assuming that's how you get your fighting style) would be better used on dual wielder. If you're getting the fighting style a different way, two weapon fighting would provide a larger bonus to damage.
Hmm, pretty sure you're wrong about this: "You can draw a weapon that has the thrown property as part of the attack you make with the weapon." To me the wording indicates you can choose to draw the blade you plan to throw with; meaning you can free action draw, then start the attack action with the second dagger you have not drawn yet.
It's also worth noting that there are similar shortcomings for Two Weapon Fighting. 1) If you are surprised as in the example above, you can still make two attacks, but you can only draw two daggers (which you just threw) so no AC bonus or chance for opportunity attacks. 2) This style alone would not allow dagger, dagger, dagger if you multiclass to get extra attack, or at least not for more than two turns when you are prepared.
TWF is more versatile granted, but that +4 damage is quite potent early levels.
If you plan to use thrown dagger, the Thrown Weapon fighting style is a must because while you can draw as much ammo as you need to, you can only draw one weapon for free per turn.
Rogue only gets one attack per turn unless you're using two weapon fighting, in which case you need to draw the second weapon before you throw the first to be able to throw it as a bonus action. This means your feat (assuming that's how you get your fighting style) would be better used on dual wielder. If you're getting the fighting style a different way, two weapon fighting would provide a larger bonus to damage.
Hmm, pretty sure you're wrong about this: "You can draw a weapon that has the thrown property as part of the attack you make with the weapon." To me the wording indicates you can choose to draw the blade you plan to throw with; meaning you can free action draw, then start the attack action with the second dagger you have not drawn yet.
It's also worth noting that there are similar shortcomings for Two Weapon Fighting. 1) If you are surprised as in the example above, you can still make two attacks, but you can only draw two daggers (which you just threw) so no AC bonus or chance for opportunity attacks. 2) This style alone would not allow dagger, dagger, dagger if you multiclass to get extra attack, or at least not for more than two turns when you are prepared.
TWF is more versatile granted, but that +4 damage is quite potent early levels.
You can draw the weapon as you make the attack, but you're only eligible to make the attack if it's already in your hand.
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.
You can draw the weapon as you make the attack, but you're only eligible to make the attack if it's already in your hand.
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.
Question; Where does it specifically state that you must be holding both weapon when the attack action is initiated? According to the wording there are only three requirements:
the attack action must be initiated with a light melee weapon
you must make the second attack with a different light melee weapon
You must use a different hand to do so.
Even if holding a weapon in both hands is somehow required, there is still an instance after you draw, but before you throw the first dagger that you are holding a weapon in both hands.
Stupidly the wording clearly means you still can't do this with darts.
Actually I think I see where you're coming from with your statement:
"When you take the Attack action --- you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand."
You're saying that you must already be holding the bonus action attack weapon in your other hand.
However as I already stated you can attack with the additional daggers you can now draw through the attack action. Therefore you are making the bonus action attack with a different weapon you're holding in your other hand. (assuming you used your free object interaction to draw the dagger first)
Actually I think I see where you're coming from with your statement:
"When you take the Attack action --- you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand."
You're saying that you must already be holding the bonus action attack weapon in your other hand.
However as I already stated you can attack with the additional daggers you can now draw through the attack action. Therefore you are making the bonus action attack with a different weapon you're holding in your other hand. (assuming you used your free object interaction to draw the dagger first)
You can't draw them with the attack action regardless, it's not unreasonable to think that you might convince your DM to let you draw and throw one as a bonus action, but it isn't actually RAW.
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Before I begin I want to say that I don't hate the rogue or think it needs any buffs or that it sucks. I personally really like the rogue class as a whole. However I'm wondering why Rogues don't get a fighting style, but every other martial class does with the exception of barbarian (I'm not including Monk because they basically have unarmed fighting). I think it would fit both mechanically and aesthetically for the rogue to have some, not all, of the fighting styles. If they had a fighting style I think they would include, at level two, Archery, Two Weapon Fighting, Dueling, Defense, and Thrown Weapon Fighting from TCoE. Like a rogue who specializes in throwing daggers and ranged weaponry, or a duel wielding rogue, or a rogue who slinks in the shadows and doesn't like to get hit. Any one else agree? I'm curious as to why Rogues don't get fighting styles.
A Rogue's main feature is their "Sneak Attack": baked-in burst damage that is only granted with advantage, or having an ally within 5ft proximity to the target.
Such is this burst damage, it requires the benefits of "Fighting Styles" significantly less-so than the other martial classes, who lean on these styles for their Extra Attacks, gradually stacking their damage.
However, the "Fighter-Rogue" multiclass is rather popular specifically because it gives you exactly that; a Rogue's "Sneak Attack" with a Fighter's "Fighting Styles"...all at just a single level.
It should be said, since you mentioned Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, that Rogue's CAN now get a Fighting Style without multiclassing...the new feat allows any character to learn a Fighting Style, if feats are allowed at your table.
I, too, wish to make a dagger-tossing Rogue now. : )
Yeah I had considered that sneak attack might be a "fighting style" but using that same thought process could the Fighter's second wind or the Rangers favored enemy be a fighting style too? Because second wind is sort of like interception? I do see your point though
You can actually get a Fighting Style by selecting the new Fighting Initiate feat. I would certainly get Archery for my Archer Rogue after max DEX.
Personally, I don’t like Sharpshooter and Xbow Expert for Rogues, so past level 4-8 when you already have maxed your DEX, leverage the Archery Fighting Style would be awesome.
So when given the choice should a rogue take ASI or fighting styles?
That all depends on what how you want to play your Rogue. I mean the Archery Fighting style would be great if you are planning on playing the Sniper Rogue, the thrown weapon fighting also seems like it would be a great fighting style if you want to play that stabby rogue that throws daggers.
Being a rogue you also get more ASI than any other class other than fighter, so you can always pick it up later if you want to get that 20 in Dex early, etc.
Personally, I would pass on styles that add damage on hit as those are designed to be balanced based on extra attacks. That narrows it down to archery or defense for me, depending on if I were going ranged or melee primarily.
If I were picking it up as a feat, there are other feats I would want before I went looking at the fighting style one. Before archery, I would probably pick up crossbow expert as the extra attack is worth more than the extra chance to hit. Before defense I would take dual wielder and/or defensive duelist.
If you plan to use thrown dagger, the Thrown Weapon fighting style is a must because while you can draw as much ammo as you need to, you can only draw one weapon for free per turn.
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ASI always. DEX will increase your To Hit, damage, AC, skill checks (Stealth+) & Initiative.
Once your DEX already reached 20, then you are good to play with some feats. Although most of them are not particularly good for Rogues.
- Sharpshooter: the damage increase is awesome, but the To Hit penalty is terrible. And since you only have one attack, I think the opportunity cost is too high. Sneak Attack should be your main source of damage.
- Crossbow Expert: This is a really good way to attack two times and ensure you’ll land your lovely SA damage, but I often think the conflicts in bonus action usage are hard to pass. Cunning Action is one of the best defensive tools in the hands of a Rogue, that also potencialize offense. I rather boost my To Hit (with Fighting Initiate for Archery) and put my Cunning Action to play all the time.
- Defensive Duelist: It’s a great feat, but you already have Uncanny Dodge locked in your reaction. I don’t think Rogues have enough ASIs to afford Defensive Duelist.
Take the one you think is the most fun. People talk about raw numbers and math a lot. They are relevant, but they are not the whole story. If you think a feat to grab a fighting style is more fun, take the feat. And the cannoli.
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I'd probably go vhuman and take it (archery) at level 1. I like hitting things.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Rogue only gets one attack per turn unless you're using two weapon fighting, in which case you need to draw the second weapon before you throw the first to be able to throw it as a bonus action. This means your feat (assuming that's how you get your fighting style) would be better used on dual wielder. If you're getting the fighting style a different way, two weapon fighting would provide a larger bonus to damage.
Unless you get Extra Attack some other way but still need the feat for the fighting style. Like maybe a Monk/Rogue or something.
My point is, technically speaking “Dagger, Dagger, Dagger” was not possible RAW until now.
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If you have two daggers in your hands then you only need to draw one to throw three in total. Critical Role's Vax does it using Haste (granted by a magic item in his case) for the second normal attack, and a bonus action attack, though I've no idea if he did it correctly by RAW every single time (no proficiency on the third dagger), it was definitely possible to do it.
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Hmm, pretty sure you're wrong about this:
"You can draw a weapon that has the thrown property as part of the attack you make with the weapon."
To me the wording indicates you can choose to draw the blade you plan to throw with; meaning you can free action draw, then start the attack action with the second dagger you have not drawn yet.
It's also worth noting that there are similar shortcomings for Two Weapon Fighting.
1) If you are surprised as in the example above, you can still make two attacks, but you can only draw two daggers (which you just threw) so no AC bonus or chance for opportunity attacks.
2) This style alone would not allow dagger, dagger, dagger if you multiclass to get extra attack, or at least not for more than two turns when you are prepared.
TWF is more versatile granted, but that +4 damage is quite potent early levels.
You can draw the weapon as you make the attack, but you're only eligible to make the attack if it's already in your hand.
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.
Fighting styles don't really benefit rogue. Defense and archery are the only truly useful ones for them from base 5e.
Question; Where does it specifically state that you must be holding both weapon when the attack action is initiated?
According to the wording there are only three requirements:
Even if holding a weapon in both hands is somehow required, there is still an instance after you draw, but before you throw the first dagger that you are holding a weapon in both hands.
Stupidly the wording clearly means you still can't do this with darts.
Actually I think I see where you're coming from with your statement:
"When you take the Attack action --- you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand."
You're saying that you must already be holding the bonus action attack weapon in your other hand.
However as I already stated you can attack with the additional daggers you can now draw through the attack action. Therefore you are making the bonus action attack with a different weapon you're holding in your other hand. (assuming you used your free object interaction to draw the dagger first)
You can't draw them with the attack action regardless, it's not unreasonable to think that you might convince your DM to let you draw and throw one as a bonus action, but it isn't actually RAW.