I do think that the Sorcerer would benefit from this. However, it is worth mentioning that I agree with the decision by WotC to forego giving 10 additional spells based on origin - that was too much. Even 5 more spells, however, would be a great boon.
I think so. Most spellcasting classes have bonus spells. Bards get Magical Secrets which is arguably better, Warlocks just add them to the list, but they are supposed to have few spells, Moon Druids get a much better beast form to make up for it, and Wizards don't really need the help since scrolls can be added to their spells known. Essentially if they don't get this they should get something (and Metamagic is not enough in my opinion).
Laron, I can agree with that to a degree. In one of the other Sorcerer threads some of us talked about adding a sorcery point short rest recovery mechanic to help with the cost of metamagic. Would that fix things from your perspective, or do you think there is something else needed?
probably they will never do this. Sorcerer low spell list is his weakness, so they will not bump that.
I would like to see more metamagic, sorcerer only get 2 until lvl 10, and four total. They could increase this at least in 50% (double would be perfect).
They could make two categories of metamegic, powerful ones (quick, twin, heightened and empowered) and situational ones (rest), each time you could pick two, but just one from each category. Now is really hard to some sorcerer get subtle, extended, distant (at least until high levels) just because the other options are way better. Where is the versatility to cast they should have?
I'm not sure I buy all of that, but I do see where you are coming from. WotC already played around with adding spells known based on origin (like with the Favored Soul and Unearthed Arcana Storm), so if they are going to make changes, I think there's a decent chance they will revisit the concept.
Really I'd like to see 5 more spells known based on origin, one or two more metamagics, and a small short rest mechanic. Those are all fairly small changes in my book, and I don't think it's an unreasonable measure to balance the Sorcerer. Even one or two of those would go a long way.
I'm not sure I buy all of that, but I do see where you are coming from. WotC already played around with adding spells known based on origin (like with the Favored Soul and Unearthed Arcana Storm), so if they are going to make changes, I think there's a decent chance they will revisit the concept.
Really I'd like to see 5 more spells known based on origin, one or two more metamagics, and a small short rest mechanic. Those are all fairly small changes in my book, and I don't think it's an unreasonable measure to balance the Sorcerer. Even one or two of those would go a long way.
I really doubt. They published storm sorcerer in SCAG, no aditional spells. There is a second version of Favored Soul, no aditional spells. Mike Mearls already said that they don't pretend to add spells for sorcerer.
One big problem for sorcerer: they are an amazing multiclass option. I think this is a big reason why they don't add more cool stuffs to that class.
Maybe it's just my personal thoughts on the issue showing. I've thought for a while that the sorcerer could benefit from a revamp like the ranger. If WotC did find sufficient reason to revisit the sorcerer as a whole, I imagine adding more spells would be on the table again. Unless something major like a class rework happens, I do agree that it's unlikely.
Maybe this also goes without saying, but if multiclassing is a reason for keeping the sorcerer at a lower power level, that's bologna. There's no way a class should be weakened due to an optional rule. If anything, warlocks would be subject to that more than sorcerers. If that is the reasoning, then all they'd have to do is shift any additional sorcerer features to higher levels, right?
Maybe it's just my personal thoughts on the issue showing. I've thought for a while that the sorcerer could benefit from a revamp like the ranger. If WotC did find sufficient reason to revisit the sorcerer as a whole, I imagine adding more spells would be on the table again. Unless something major like a class rework happens, I do agree that it's unlikely.
Maybe this also goes without saying, but if multiclassing is a reason for keeping the sorcerer at a lower power level, that's bologna. There's no way a class should be weakened due to an optional rule. If anything, warlocks would be subject to that more than sorcerers. If that is the reasoning, then all they'd have to do is shift any additional sorcerer features to higher levels, right?
I totally agree with that, the spell problem of sorcerer start at level 11, far away of many multiclass (by the way, multiclass is one away to get more low level spells), add spells at lvl 1 to 9 don't help much (old storm sorcerer and favored soul), but add something new after 11 would be nice. I just don't see WotC change that spell part, and sorcerer is in another level than PHB ranger.
The higher you take a Sorcerer in levels, the more the hard limit on spells known cramps their style.
A 20th level Sorcerer is stuck at 15 spells known. Full stop. That creates an example of a Sorcerer who knows one spell of each level from first to ninth, and six spells left over. Even if you split them up among the highest levels, you're still looking at one spell of each level from first to sixth, and two spells of seventh to ninth known.
a 20th level Wizard can have 20 + Intelligence bonus spells prepared.Let's give him an Intelligence bonus of 1, for a total of 21 prepared spells. He could have one spell from first to sixth level prepared, just like the Sorcerer... and have five spells of seventh to ninth known.
When you compare that Sorcerer with 6 different spells of seventh, eighth, or ninth level ready to go, against that Wizard with 15 different spells of seventh, eight, or ninth level ready to go, the Sorcerer looks a bit weak.
Now factor that the Sorcerer is stuck with those 6 spells. Forever. The Wizard can show up tomorrow with 15 completely different spells. And 15 completely different spells after that. It just depends on the contents of his spellbook.
And that's a Wizard with an Intelligence of 13. A 20th level Wizard is probably rocking an Intelligence of 20, if not higher. Let's call it 20. Now he's got another 4 spells he can prepare. Now he can show up with 19 different spells of seventh, eighth, or ninth level. That Sorcerer? Is still stuck with 6.
Sure, Sorcerers are great in the earlier stages in the game. But in a full-term chronicle, the Sorcerer is severelyoutgunned by the Wizard, who simply brings more to the table, and thus offer more to the party, than the Sorcerer can.
If there was a way for Sorcerers to expand their known spells, this wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately, it appears that the 5E writers are not interested in that.
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GreoryThegreater spell points are only part of the issue.
They massively over value twined, subtle, distant, empowered and extended spell. All of those options are very situational and need to compete with quickened spell. Which renders them virtually useless in some cases. Why use any of them if you are standing 120feet way casting fire ball? You won't be in danger casting from that far away so won't use distant spell, twined and extended are useless on AoE spells, with empowered being extremely limited in use by the spells the Sorcerer gets and the limit of spell slots . Empowered is useful, but not worth the cost. Using it twice will be less effective then using twinned spells one more time. Leaving you with options that aren't really options, that you can't even have all and are limited for the day by a resource that can only be replenished using your very limited spell slots.
You are put in a similar spot as way of the 4 elements monks. Once your resource runs dry you are really not doing much. For sorcerers it is even more painful as they are useless for the rest of the day. That really limits me as a DM. If I throw a long cave at my players where the magic user is a sorcerer, I have to really be careful to not have to many opportunities for him to use his magic. That is ****ed. My decision as a DM should never be " How do I make sure my player isn't willing to use to much of his skills so he isn't ****ed if I put a big encounter at the end ". It is just not fun for me or the player. Either he needs to save all his spells and if there is nothing at the end it is shitty or he uses his spells and if there is something at the end he is ****ed.
Two categories of metamegic would be nice, powerful ones and situation ones, them they could get double of options to increase versatility. No one get extend or distant spell if there is only 2 options until level 10 with things like quick spell.
I would agree that something needs to be done with the situation of sorcerer finds itself as a class. The shift from previous editions of preparing spells in slots to the current model of spells prepared but Slots free, really reduced one of the sorcerer's strengths (that and the removal of flexible spell such as shadow conjuration) without much compensation.
I haven't had a chance to look at all the spells, bit there could be a removal of the material components/foci need for soscerer. Though this could have lasting issues on which spells the class receives in the future.
One thing I've seen suggested that I liked was for sorcerers to be their own arcane focus, at least for materials without a listed cost.
That's such a small thing though that I feel the sorcerer needs more, such as the short rest mechanic being extended to lower levels, more metamagic, and/or a handful more spells known.
I would say yes. One of the things that I found glaring was the spell diversity so far.
I currently have a couple of spells I've homebrewed for Storm/Sea Sorcerer/blue dragon sorcerer, but I think that there could be more for sorc's based on the type of magic that they do.
So I have a reflavoured cantrip for lightning and a reflavoured 9th level AoE nuke according to what I felt was missing for this playstyle.
I'm contemplating more for Storm/Sea atm.
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Something me and my boyfriend were talking about, do you think the Sorcerer could benefit from expanded spells based on your origin?
I do think that the Sorcerer would benefit from this. However, it is worth mentioning that I agree with the decision by WotC to forego giving 10 additional spells based on origin - that was too much. Even 5 more spells, however, would be a great boon.
It could be, alternatively they could touch up the meta magic options and give each origin one or two unique ones
I think so. Most spellcasting classes have bonus spells. Bards get Magical Secrets which is arguably better, Warlocks just add them to the list, but they are supposed to have few spells, Moon Druids get a much better beast form to make up for it, and Wizards don't really need the help since scrolls can be added to their spells known. Essentially if they don't get this they should get something (and Metamagic is not enough in my opinion).
The issue of meta magic is that is is weaker versions then other classes get for free and cost a resource.
Laron, I can agree with that to a degree. In one of the other Sorcerer threads some of us talked about adding a sorcery point short rest recovery mechanic to help with the cost of metamagic. Would that fix things from your perspective, or do you think there is something else needed?
probably they will never do this. Sorcerer low spell list is his weakness, so they will not bump that.
I would like to see more metamagic, sorcerer only get 2 until lvl 10, and four total. They could increase this at least in 50% (double would be perfect).
They could make two categories of metamegic, powerful ones (quick, twin, heightened and empowered) and situational ones (rest), each time you could pick two, but just one from each category. Now is really hard to some sorcerer get subtle, extended, distant (at least until high levels) just because the other options are way better. Where is the versatility to cast they should have?
origin exclusive metamagic would be nice too.
I'm not sure I buy all of that, but I do see where you are coming from. WotC already played around with adding spells known based on origin (like with the Favored Soul and Unearthed Arcana Storm), so if they are going to make changes, I think there's a decent chance they will revisit the concept.
Really I'd like to see 5 more spells known based on origin, one or two more metamagics, and a small short rest mechanic. Those are all fairly small changes in my book, and I don't think it's an unreasonable measure to balance the Sorcerer. Even one or two of those would go a long way.
Maybe it's just my personal thoughts on the issue showing. I've thought for a while that the sorcerer could benefit from a revamp like the ranger. If WotC did find sufficient reason to revisit the sorcerer as a whole, I imagine adding more spells would be on the table again. Unless something major like a class rework happens, I do agree that it's unlikely.
Maybe this also goes without saying, but if multiclassing is a reason for keeping the sorcerer at a lower power level, that's bologna. There's no way a class should be weakened due to an optional rule. If anything, warlocks would be subject to that more than sorcerers. If that is the reasoning, then all they'd have to do is shift any additional sorcerer features to higher levels, right?
What is it about the higher level sorcerers that is weak? I haven't seen a sorcerer played though those levels, so I'm just curious.
The higher you take a Sorcerer in levels, the more the hard limit on spells known cramps their style.
A 20th level Sorcerer is stuck at 15 spells known. Full stop. That creates an example of a Sorcerer who knows one spell of each level from first to ninth, and six spells left over. Even if you split them up among the highest levels, you're still looking at one spell of each level from first to sixth, and two spells of seventh to ninth known.
a 20th level Wizard can have 20 + Intelligence bonus spells prepared.Let's give him an Intelligence bonus of 1, for a total of 21 prepared spells. He could have one spell from first to sixth level prepared, just like the Sorcerer... and have five spells of seventh to ninth known.
When you compare that Sorcerer with 6 different spells of seventh, eighth, or ninth level ready to go, against that Wizard with 15 different spells of seventh, eight, or ninth level ready to go, the Sorcerer looks a bit weak.
Now factor that the Sorcerer is stuck with those 6 spells. Forever. The Wizard can show up tomorrow with 15 completely different spells. And 15 completely different spells after that. It just depends on the contents of his spellbook.
And that's a Wizard with an Intelligence of 13. A 20th level Wizard is probably rocking an Intelligence of 20, if not higher. Let's call it 20. Now he's got another 4 spells he can prepare. Now he can show up with 19 different spells of seventh, eighth, or ninth level. That Sorcerer? Is still stuck with 6.
Sure, Sorcerers are great in the earlier stages in the game. But in a full-term chronicle, the Sorcerer is severely outgunned by the Wizard, who simply brings more to the table, and thus offer more to the party, than the Sorcerer can.
If there was a way for Sorcerers to expand their known spells, this wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately, it appears that the 5E writers are not interested in that.
⬐ If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
GreoryThegreater spell points are only part of the issue.
They massively over value twined, subtle, distant, empowered and extended spell. All of those options are very situational and need to compete with quickened spell. Which renders them virtually useless in some cases. Why use any of them if you are standing 120feet way casting fire ball? You won't be in danger casting from that far away so won't use distant spell, twined and extended are useless on AoE spells, with empowered being extremely limited in use by the spells the Sorcerer gets and the limit of spell slots . Empowered is useful, but not worth the cost. Using it twice will be less effective then using twinned spells one more time. Leaving you with options that aren't really options, that you can't even have all and are limited for the day by a resource that can only be replenished using your very limited spell slots.
You are put in a similar spot as way of the 4 elements monks. Once your resource runs dry you are really not doing much. For sorcerers it is even more painful as they are useless for the rest of the day. That really limits me as a DM. If I throw a long cave at my players where the magic user is a sorcerer, I have to really be careful to not have to many opportunities for him to use his magic. That is ****ed. My decision as a DM should never be " How do I make sure my player isn't willing to use to much of his skills so he isn't ****ed if I put a big encounter at the end ". It is just not fun for me or the player. Either he needs to save all his spells and if there is nothing at the end it is shitty or he uses his spells and if there is something at the end he is ****ed.
Laron,
I agree that sorcerers need a short rest mechanic. Even half or a third of sorcery points back per short rest would be huge.
I still think they should have one more metamagic around level 6 and 5 more spells known, but the short rest mechanic is essential.
Two categories of metamegic would be nice, powerful ones and situation ones, them they could get double of options to increase versatility. No one get extend or distant spell if there is only 2 options until level 10 with things like quick spell.
At the very least, I'm all for more metamagic options.
I would agree that something needs to be done with the situation of sorcerer finds itself as a class. The shift from previous editions of preparing spells in slots to the current model of spells prepared but Slots free, really reduced one of the sorcerer's strengths (that and the removal of flexible spell such as shadow conjuration) without much compensation.
I haven't had a chance to look at all the spells, bit there could be a removal of the material components/foci need for soscerer. Though this could have lasting issues on which spells the class receives in the future.
One thing I've seen suggested that I liked was for sorcerers to be their own arcane focus, at least for materials without a listed cost.
That's such a small thing though that I feel the sorcerer needs more, such as the short rest mechanic being extended to lower levels, more metamagic, and/or a handful more spells known.
I would say yes. One of the things that I found glaring was the spell diversity so far.
I currently have a couple of spells I've homebrewed for Storm/Sea Sorcerer/blue dragon sorcerer, but I think that there could be more for sorc's based on the type of magic that they do.
So I have a reflavoured cantrip for lightning and a reflavoured 9th level AoE nuke according to what I felt was missing for this playstyle.
I'm contemplating more for Storm/Sea atm.