The problem with extended spell is that the passage of time in D&D is fuzzy at best.
That being said the most useable application that I have found is: -1 min spells set up before a known combat. This allows you to basically precast some action / concentration spell making your action economy much better in round 1. Depending on the DM pre-casting something like this without extended might only have half the duration or something, if they let you do it at all. This obviously depends on DMs and how much time they decide passes but, 1 extra minute to cast blur or flaming sphere while your group is doing whatever before they kick open the door and start combat is pretty reasonable
Also: -1 hour spells during long dungeon crawls -8 hour casts with left over slots before a long rest
The problem with extended spell is that the passage of time in D&D is fuzzy at best.
That being said the most useable application that I have found is: -1 min spells set up before a known combat. This allows you to basically precast some action / concentration spell making your action economy much better in round 1. Depending on the DM pre-casting something like this without extended might only have half the duration or something, if they let you do it at all. This obviously depends on DMs and how much time they decide passes but, 1 extra minute to cast blur or flaming sphere while your group is doing whatever before they kick open the door and start combat is pretty reasonable
Also: -1 hour spells during long dungeon crawls -8 hour casts with left over slots before a long rest
I was reading through the thread and thinking this most of the way. I think these are the best uses for it.
That being said twinned and quickened are probably the best all purpose. Subtle is very useful in social situations. Heightened for save or suck control spells. Careful and empowered for blasting. The others are pretty situational and fall towards the bottom.
Taking metamagic adept gets you two more choices which is really big in terms of adding options.
The problem with extended spell is that the passage of time in D&D is fuzzy at best.
That being said the most useable application that I have found is: -1 min spells set up before a known combat. This allows you to basically precast some action / concentration spell making your action economy much better in round 1. Depending on the DM pre-casting something like this without extended might only have half the duration or something, if they let you do it at all. This obviously depends on DMs and how much time they decide passes but, 1 extra minute to cast blur or flaming sphere while your group is doing whatever before they kick open the door and start combat is pretty reasonable
Also: -1 hour spells during long dungeon crawls -8 hour casts with left over slots before a long rest
I was reading through the thread and thinking this most of the way. I think these are the best uses for it.
That being said twinned and quickened are probably the best all purpose. Subtle is very useful in social situations. Heightened for save or suck control spells. Careful and empowered for blasting. The others are pretty situational and fall towards the bottom.
Taking metamagic adept gets you two more choices which is really big in terms of adding options.
I actually think quicken is overrated and depending on the DM, empower can be better if you have spells like bless and aura of vitality that make the most of it. It's also DM dependent but most combats in D&D don't last much longer than 3-6 rounds so sneaking in 1 extra action is a pretty massive benefit.
Quicken is great but if you are only using it to sneak in another cantrip it is pretty underwhelming even if quicken fireball, twin firebolt on the same turn just feels epic. It's only really impressive if you multiclass warlock, have some 1 action use item, or really need an action to do something like disengage or dash. Otherwise you are trading out your bonus action and 2 sorc points for a cantrip.
The problem with extended spell is that the passage of time in D&D is fuzzy at best.
That being said the most useable application that I have found is: -1 min spells set up before a known combat. This allows you to basically precast some action / concentration spell making your action economy much better in round 1. Depending on the DM pre-casting something like this without extended might only have half the duration or something, if they let you do it at all. This obviously depends on DMs and how much time they decide passes but, 1 extra minute to cast blur or flaming sphere while your group is doing whatever before they kick open the door and start combat is pretty reasonable
Also: -1 hour spells during long dungeon crawls -8 hour casts with left over slots before a long rest
I was reading through the thread and thinking this most of the way. I think these are the best uses for it.
That being said twinned and quickened are probably the best all purpose. Subtle is very useful in social situations. Heightened for save or suck control spells. Careful and empowered for blasting. The others are pretty situational and fall towards the bottom.
Taking metamagic adept gets you two more choices which is really big in terms of adding options.
I actually think quicken is overrated and depending on the DM, empower can be better if you have spells like bless and aura of vitality that make the most of it. It's also DM dependent but most combats in D&D don't last much longer than 3-6 rounds so sneaking in 1 extra action is a pretty massive benefit.
Quicken is great but if you are only using it to sneak in another cantrip it is pretty underwhelming even if quicken fireball, twin firebolt on the same turn just feels epic. It's only really impressive if you multiclass warlock, have some 1 action use item, or really need an action to do something like disengage or dash. Otherwise you are trading out your bonus action and 2 sorc points for a cantrip.
Yeah, I think that's fair. Using quicken for a dps boost like that isn't all that great. I find myself using it mostly when I need my action for something else but still want an effective combat action. Sometimes though one enemy is close to dead and being able to finish it off with a cantrip in addition to another spell is helpful. I also like using it in combination with mind sliver to hopefully give your save or suck spell an extra d4 chance of success.
Yea, given the rules of spellcasting...i.e. not being able to cast a leveled spell with your action and bonus action, I tend to find quickened underwhelming at lower levels.
Now say I'm surrounded, I may want to do a level spell with my bonus action and take dodge with my action, but given the cost (2 sorcery points!) I'm far more likely to misty step if that's an option.
Where quickened shines, is when you have a spell that allows additional usages with your action. Dragon's Breath (2nd level), Maximillian's Earthen Grip (2nd level), Watery Sphere (4th level), Telekinesis (5th level), Eyebite (6th level) and Sun Beam (6th level)
I actually think quicken is overrated and depending on the DM, empower can be better if you have spells like bless and aura of vitality that make the most of it. It's also DM dependent but most combats in D&D don't last much longer than 3-6 rounds so sneaking in 1 extra action is a pretty massive benefit.
Quicken is great but if you are only using it to sneak in another cantrip it is pretty underwhelming even if quicken fireball, twin firebolt on the same turn just feels epic. It's only really impressive if you multiclass warlock, have some 1 action use item, or really need an action to do something like disengage or dash. Otherwise you are trading out your bonus action and 2 sorc points for a cantrip.
Yeah, I think that's fair. Using quicken for a dps boost like that isn't all that great. I find myself using it mostly when I need my action for something else but still want an effective combat action. Sometimes though one enemy is close to dead and being able to finish it off with a cantrip in addition to another spell is helpful. I also like using it in combination with mind sliver to hopefully give your save or suck spell an extra d4 chance of success.
The quicken mindsliver can be cool but I've found that in practice it's not as effective as I'd like. First the target needs to fail the mindlsliver save, then it has to succeed the quick spell save by 4 or less, then you need to roll high enough on the d4, and then if all of those happen to be true, you also have to keep in mind that a lot of targets that you'd really want to land save spells on are going to have legendary resistances.
The quicken mindsliver can be cool but I've found that in practice it's not as effective as I'd like. First the target needs to fail the mindlsliver save, then it has to succeed the quick spell save by 4 or less, then you need to roll high enough on the d4, and then if all of those happen to be true, you also have to keep in mind that a lot of targets that you'd really want to land save spells on are going to have legendary resistances.
Still, isnt that some extra psychic damage, and increased odds of making him burn his legendary actions? Still a win! Plus you could twin cast the mindsliver at 2 foes damaging both, then quicken, and give your other caster allies a boon to their spell/stunning fist/combat manouver too.
Dude. Quicken is OP as heck. You're basically freeing up your action in order to do other things. This means you can disengage, move, then quicken. Dash and quicken. Or use it with other stuff. And there's some REALLY potent combos with the right set-up. For example, quicken a mind sliver then heighten a control spell to make it REALLY unlikely that they'll make it without legendary resistances. Might be costly on the spell-points; but if it means you remove a massive threat from a fight... Or getting hasted and proceeding to utilize quicken to unleash three firebolts a round which is not something minor to scoff at in terms of damage potential. The real grail, though, is combining mind sliver and tasha's mind whip to utterly trash a foes action economy. If you quicken the mind sliver, you can then twin the mind whips to hamper two foes at once. It's the number 2 spell and, even then, it's only because twinned can result in some truely insane things happening. Like two giant apes stomping around the field.
If you quicken the mind sliver, you can then twin the mind whips to hamper two foes at once.
You can't twin tasha's mind whip because it's capable of targeting more than one creature already (by up-casting it); you could do this the other way around and Quicken a 3rd-level mind whip then twin mind sliver to affect two targets at once.
If you quicken the mind sliver, you can then twin the mind whips to hamper two foes at once.
You can't twin tasha's mind whip because it's capable of targeting more than one creature already (by up-casting it); you would have do this the other way around and Quicken a 2nd-level mind whip then twin mind sliver to affect two targets at once.
The rules for twinned specify specifically that 'To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. ' Irritatingly it doesn't list a spell in the examples section of a spell that gains additional targets as it levels (which would resolve this question instantly); but for a level 2 Mind Whip you are indeed capable of twinning it. Useful to know when you're at lower levels and don't have level 3 spell slots/enough to consider upscaling.
The quicken mindsliver can be cool but I've found that in practice it's not as effective as I'd like. First the target needs to fail the mindlsliver save, then it has to succeed the quick spell save by 4 or less, then you need to roll high enough on the d4, and then if all of those happen to be true, you also have to keep in mind that a lot of targets that you'd really want to land save spells on are going to have legendary resistances.
Still, isnt that some extra psychic damage, and increased odds of making him burn his legendary actions? Still a win! Plus you could twin cast the mindsliver at 2 foes damaging both, then quicken, and give your other caster allies a boon to their spell/stunning fist/combat manouver too.
I mean it's not terrible or anything but you still have to have the target fail the save for mind sliver, then succeed the save for the next spell, but only succeed by a margin of 1-4, then you also need to roll high enough on the d4 for it to change a save into a fail. It helps and it can add a little extra damage but there are a lot of "ifs" that have to happen for quicken/mindsliver to actually make any kind of difference.
It can work to try to land big, concentration save spells, but as far as burning legendary resistances, that is almost never a great idea unless you and your party are all attempting to do it as a way of getting off a banish or something like that. If you are throwing a lot of save spells and have something like silvery barbs, it can work out. Just keep in mind that a creature with legendary resistances are also almost always going to have high +saves. It's also going to probably have legendary actions, so your spells having no effect for multiple rounds means that your party is at a significant disadvantage if you don't burn through the resistances and land an impactful spell relatively fast.
Firstly, both Mind Sliver and Mind Whip target INT. This isn't CON that we're talking about where every monster has a bonus and every other monster seems to have said bonus being at least a +4 or more. There are level 20 monsters that have a +0 (Ancient White Dragon) so it 'failing it's saving through' isn't as bad a situation as you seem to think. Sure, it's not likely to hurt a Lich (ignoring LR of course), but it's not like it's a massive, unwinnable, uphill battle. Secondly, assuming you do get it to hit, then that next thing can be a huge variety of spells. MW is just the most straight-forwards combo with a huge return on investment; but you can do other stuff. Even taking on a CON save isn't as bad when the foe is getting that - 1-4. Like, a monster that has a +10 saving throw. Normally you'd probably avoid a spell that targets that stat all together even if it was really good. Mind sliver and, if you luck out, that +10 is now a +6. Throw heighten on your spell and what was an unrealistic longshot is now suddenly... not. Granted, this is going to suuuuuck for spellpoint use (quicken and heighten. 5 points. Ouch.) but this is also a potential tide turner against a foe you normally wouldn't even be considering.
EXTENDED SPELL Cost: 1 Sorcery Point When you cast a spell that has a duration of 1 minute or longer, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to double its duration, to a maximum duration of 24 hours. If the affected spell requires Concentration, you have Advantage on any saving throw you make to maintain that Concentration.
It's not clear if you can 'stack' it or something but, RAW, you can't. The advantage on Concentration saving throws is nice but, on the whole, I don't know if it will actually 'fix' any of the core issues the old version had.
It's not clear if you can 'stack' it or something but, RAW, you can't. The advantage on Concentration saving throws is nice but, on the whole, I don't know if it will actually 'fix' any of the core issues the old version had.
One of the core issues is the lack of spells to use it with, but the UA Sorcerer now has access to the full Arcane spell list which does give us some more options at least.
One of my favourite setups is a Mind Sliver (minus 1d4 to next saving throw) and bonus action quicken DC spell. And if you're a sorcerer then you have access to a metamagic item that gives disadvantage on a target if you use metamagic to cast the spell on them. So - 1d4 and roll at disadvantage. Great for Dominate Monster --- or Fireball if you're a Basic Sorcerer :P
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RIP Healing Spirit.
The problem with extended spell is that the passage of time in D&D is fuzzy at best.
That being said the most useable application that I have found is:
-1 min spells set up before a known combat. This allows you to basically precast some action / concentration spell making your action economy much better in round 1. Depending on the DM pre-casting something like this without extended might only have half the duration or something, if they let you do it at all.
This obviously depends on DMs and how much time they decide passes but, 1 extra minute to cast blur or flaming sphere while your group is doing whatever before they kick open the door and start combat is pretty reasonable
Also:
-1 hour spells during long dungeon crawls
-8 hour casts with left over slots before a long rest
I was reading through the thread and thinking this most of the way. I think these are the best uses for it.
That being said twinned and quickened are probably the best all purpose. Subtle is very useful in social situations. Heightened for save or suck control spells. Careful and empowered for blasting. The others are pretty situational and fall towards the bottom.
Taking metamagic adept gets you two more choices which is really big in terms of adding options.
More often then not, if I'm using extend spell it has to be for either the 8 hour or 1 hour duration.
Summon Draconic Spirit is an *excellent* choice for any and all Sorcerers as well as Suggestion, Invisibility, Polymorph, etc
Divine Soul has several options as well with Aid and Summon Celestial
I actually think quicken is overrated and depending on the DM, empower can be better if you have spells like bless and aura of vitality that make the most of it. It's also DM dependent but most combats in D&D don't last much longer than 3-6 rounds so sneaking in 1 extra action is a pretty massive benefit.
Quicken is great but if you are only using it to sneak in another cantrip it is pretty underwhelming even if quicken fireball, twin firebolt on the same turn just feels epic. It's only really impressive if you multiclass warlock, have some 1 action use item, or really need an action to do something like disengage or dash.
Otherwise you are trading out your bonus action and 2 sorc points for a cantrip.
Yeah, I think that's fair. Using quicken for a dps boost like that isn't all that great. I find myself using it mostly when I need my action for something else but still want an effective combat action. Sometimes though one enemy is close to dead and being able to finish it off with a cantrip in addition to another spell is helpful. I also like using it in combination with mind sliver to hopefully give your save or suck spell an extra d4 chance of success.
Yea, given the rules of spellcasting...i.e. not being able to cast a leveled spell with your action and bonus action, I tend to find quickened underwhelming at lower levels.
Now say I'm surrounded, I may want to do a level spell with my bonus action and take dodge with my action, but given the cost (2 sorcery points!) I'm far more likely to misty step if that's an option.
Where quickened shines, is when you have a spell that allows additional usages with your action. Dragon's Breath (2nd level), Maximillian's Earthen Grip (2nd level), Watery Sphere (4th level), Telekinesis (5th level), Eyebite (6th level) and Sun Beam (6th level)
The quicken mindsliver can be cool but I've found that in practice it's not as effective as I'd like. First the target needs to fail the mindlsliver save, then it has to succeed the quick spell save by 4 or less, then you need to roll high enough on the d4, and then if all of those happen to be true, you also have to keep in mind that a lot of targets that you'd really want to land save spells on are going to have legendary resistances.
double post sorry
Still, isnt that some extra psychic damage, and increased odds of making him burn his legendary actions? Still a win! Plus you could twin cast the mindsliver at 2 foes damaging both, then quicken, and give your other caster allies a boon to their spell/stunning fist/combat manouver too.
Dude. Quicken is OP as heck. You're basically freeing up your action in order to do other things. This means you can disengage, move, then quicken. Dash and quicken. Or use it with other stuff. And there's some REALLY potent combos with the right set-up. For example, quicken a mind sliver then heighten a control spell to make it REALLY unlikely that they'll make it without legendary resistances. Might be costly on the spell-points; but if it means you remove a massive threat from a fight... Or getting hasted and proceeding to utilize quicken to unleash three firebolts a round which is not something minor to scoff at in terms of damage potential. The real grail, though, is combining mind sliver and tasha's mind whip to utterly trash a foes action economy. If you quicken the mind sliver, you can then twin the mind whips to hamper two foes at once. It's the number 2 spell and, even then, it's only because twinned can result in some truely insane things happening. Like two giant apes stomping around the field.
You can't twin tasha's mind whip because it's capable of targeting more than one creature already (by up-casting it); you could do this the other way around and Quicken a 3rd-level mind whip then twin mind sliver to affect two targets at once.Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
The rules for twinned specify specifically that 'To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. ' Irritatingly it doesn't list a spell in the examples section of a spell that gains additional targets as it levels (which would resolve this question instantly); but for a level 2 Mind Whip you are indeed capable of twinning it. Useful to know when you're at lower levels and don't have level 3 spell slots/enough to consider upscaling.
I mean it's not terrible or anything but you still have to have the target fail the save for mind sliver, then succeed the save for the next spell, but only succeed by a margin of 1-4, then you also need to roll high enough on the d4 for it to change a save into a fail. It helps and it can add a little extra damage but there are a lot of "ifs" that have to happen for quicken/mindsliver to actually make any kind of difference.
It can work to try to land big, concentration save spells, but as far as burning legendary resistances, that is almost never a great idea unless you and your party are all attempting to do it as a way of getting off a banish or something like that. If you are throwing a lot of save spells and have something like silvery barbs, it can work out.
Just keep in mind that a creature with legendary resistances are also almost always going to have high +saves. It's also going to probably have legendary actions, so your spells having no effect for multiple rounds means that your party is at a significant disadvantage if you don't burn through the resistances and land an impactful spell relatively fast.
Firstly, both Mind Sliver and Mind Whip target INT. This isn't CON that we're talking about where every monster has a bonus and every other monster seems to have said bonus being at least a +4 or more. There are level 20 monsters that have a +0 (Ancient White Dragon) so it 'failing it's saving through' isn't as bad a situation as you seem to think. Sure, it's not likely to hurt a Lich (ignoring LR of course), but it's not like it's a massive, unwinnable, uphill battle. Secondly, assuming you do get it to hit, then that next thing can be a huge variety of spells. MW is just the most straight-forwards combo with a huge return on investment; but you can do other stuff. Even taking on a CON save isn't as bad when the foe is getting that - 1-4. Like, a monster that has a +10 saving throw. Normally you'd probably avoid a spell that targets that stat all together even if it was really good. Mind sliver and, if you luck out, that +10 is now a +6. Throw heighten on your spell and what was an unrealistic longshot is now suddenly... not. Granted, this is going to suuuuuck for spellpoint use (quicken and heighten. 5 points. Ouch.) but this is also a potential tide turner against a foe you normally wouldn't even be considering.
If you know you can start the casting before combat starts, using Extended Spell on Delayed Blast Fireball can be fun.
Might want to take a look at the new UA (5) and it’s version of extend spell.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
EXTENDED SPELL Cost: 1 Sorcery Point When you cast a spell that has a duration of 1 minute or longer, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to double its duration, to a maximum duration of 24 hours. If the affected spell requires Concentration, you have Advantage on any saving throw you make to maintain that Concentration.
It's not clear if you can 'stack' it or something but, RAW, you can't. The advantage on Concentration saving throws is nice but, on the whole, I don't know if it will actually 'fix' any of the core issues the old version had.
One of the core issues is the lack of spells to use it with, but the UA Sorcerer now has access to the full Arcane spell list which does give us some more options at least.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
One of my favourite setups is a Mind Sliver (minus 1d4 to next saving throw) and bonus action quicken DC spell. And if you're a sorcerer then you have access to a metamagic item that gives disadvantage on a target if you use metamagic to cast the spell on them. So - 1d4 and roll at disadvantage. Great for Dominate Monster --- or Fireball if you're a Basic Sorcerer :P