I wonder how the Tides of Chaos actually plays out and how it could be utilised to the maximum. It reads:
Level 3: Tides of Chaos
You can manipulate chaos itself to give yourself Advantage on one D20 Test before you roll the d20. Once you do so, you must cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot or finish a Long Rest before you can use this feature again.
If you do cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot before you finish a Long Rest, you automatically roll on the Wild Magic Surge table.
So let's assume that ToC has not been used yet and we enter comabt. On first round we cast a Chromatic Orb (and roll a d20 to see if we trigger a wild magic surge naturally) and we decide to get advantage on the attack roll through ToC.
Now, what exactly happens on round 2? Say that we want to cast Chromatic Orb again. We cast a 1+ level spell, so we get a Surge set up last turn. But can we get another ToC advantage on the casting that triggers the Surge, therefore setting ToC up again for the next turn? So I see two possible options:
Casting 1+ spell -> Wild Magic Surge & refreshing ToC -> rolling the spell attack (possibly using ToC again)
Casting 1+ spell -> rolling the spell attack (ToC not refreshed yet) -> Wild Magic Surge & refreshing ToC
If 1. is true and we surge and refresh ToC before we make the spell attack of the spell that triggered the surge then we could theoretically set up a Surge every turn (given that we keep casting spells that make a d20 test that we could get advantage on).
If 2. is true and we cannot get advantage on the spell that itself refreshes ToC and if we were casting e.g. Chromatic Orb every turn, only every second turn would we ensure a Wild magic Surge.
TLDR: Does Tides of Chaos refresh on the same casting that activates its previously set up Wild Magic Surge? I am interested in RAW and not in GM fiats.
If Tides of Chaos has not been used yet, I the wording of the ability would suggest to me that when used on the attack roll of a spell, the Wild Magic Surge would happen immediately after the spell. So your first turn would essentially work like this....
So let's assume that ToC has not been used yet and we enter comabt. On first round we cast a Chromatic Orb (and roll a d20 to see if we trigger a wild magic surge naturally) and we decide to get advantage on the attack roll through ToC.
A minor point; It is not required to roll a d20 to see if you trigger a Wild Magic Surge on the first round; Unlike PHB 2014, where the choice for a Wild Magic Sorcerer rolling for a Wild Magic Surge on a normal Sorcerer spell casting is at the DM's discretion, in PHB 2024, whether to roll for it is at the player's discretion.
Admittedly, with the changes to the Wild Magic Surge table in PHB 2024, the potential results are generally more favorable to the Player.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
It is not required to roll a d20 to see if you trigger a Wild Magic Surge on the first round...
I think this is not correct for the natural Wild Magic Surge choice after a spell cast, as the PHB 2024 RAW says:
... you can roll 1d20 immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect.
which means you only can roll on the Wild Magic Surge table if you did roll the d20. But the ToC triggers the Wild Magic Surge instantly if its being refreshed.
And for the Tides of Chaos Chain, that's how I see it (assuming ToC is Refreshed on the first round). And I prefer to include the attack roll into the casting, so the refresh happens directly after because the ToC is already used before the spell is finished casting:
Round 1
Cast a 1+ attack spell -> use ToC for advantage on attack roll -> Spell is cast -> ToC refreshes -> Immediate Wild Magic Surge from ToC -> optional: the player can choose to roll another d20 Wild Magic Surge
Round 2+
Repeat
And this could also work for non attack spells, if advantage is allowed on Wild Magic Surge d20 rolls:
Round 1
Cast a 1+ spell -> use ToC to gain advantage for the Wild Magic Surge d20 roll.
Round 2
Cast a 1+ spell -> ToC Refreshes, immediate Wild Magic Surge Table roll -> use ToC again to gain advantage for the Wild Magic Surge d20 roll.
Round 3+
Repeat
So you have basically 1 fixed Magic Surge per turn and another advantage chance for an magic surge.
Whats your opinion about that? Is it even possible to use the ToC for the d20 Wild Magic Surge roll?
So let's assume that ToC has not been used yet and we enter comabt. On first round ....
Under the 2024 rules, in that particular situation, the player does not have to check for a "natural" Wild Magic Surge unless it's something they want to check for. That's all I meant, there.
As far as I understood it was the OP's intend to trigger the Wild Magic Surge which would need a d20 roll. That is also why I posted the idea that you might be able to even trigger both ToC's automatic Wild Magic Surge and the additional (optional) d20 Roll for the Spell Cast.
It is not required to roll a d20 to see if you trigger a Wild Magic Surge on the first round...
I think this is not correct for the natural Wild Magic Surge choice after a spell cast, as the PHB 2024 RAW says:
... you can roll 1d20 immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect.
which means you only can roll on the Wild Magic Surge table if you did roll the d20. But the ToC triggers the Wild Magic Surge instantly if its being refreshed.
And for the Tides of Chaos Chain, that's how I see it (assuming ToC is Refreshed on the first round). And I prefer to include the attack roll into the casting, so the refresh happens directly after because the ToC is already used before the spell is finished casting:
Round 1
Cast a 1+ attack spell -> use ToC for advantage on attack roll -> Spell is cast -> ToC refreshes -> Immediate Wild Magic Surge from ToC -> optional: the player can choose to roll another d20 Wild Magic Surge
Round 2+
Repeat
And this could also work for non attack spells, if advantage is allowed on Wild Magic Surge d20 rolls:
Round 1
Cast a 1+ spell -> use ToC to gain advantage for the Wild Magic Surge d20 roll.
Round 2
Cast a 1+ spell -> ToC Refreshes, immediate Wild Magic Surge Table roll -> use ToC again to gain advantage for the Wild Magic Surge d20 roll.
Round 3+
Repeat
So you have basically 1 fixed Magic Surge per turn and another advantage chance for an magic surge.
Whats your opinion about that? Is it even possible to use the ToC for the d20 Wild Magic Surge roll?
It would be quite great if it didn't require more setup than this, but I don't really see it working that way. The way I read it ToC gives you advantage on a d20 test. (Now, here it's where it gets pedantic...) The next part comes in a separate sentence: "once you do so, you can't do that again [...]" Therefore I read it as "first you get the advantage and the whole trigger that you used ToC on has finish" and only after that a refresh trigger appears.
And when it comes to the second part of your post, it doesn't work, because "d20 test" doesn't apply to any roll of a d20, but specifically to ability checks, saving throws and attack rolls. Here is the definition:
"D20 Tests encompass the three main d20 rolls of the game: ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws. If something in the game affects D20 Tests, it affects all three of these rolls."
Therefore the roll to trigger a "natural" wild magic surge cannot benefit from the advantage from ToC.
Round 1, your turn -- cast any Sorcerer spell with a slot, and roll on table.
Between your turns on round 1 and 2 -- if you make a save, give yourself advantage.
Round 2, your turn: if you used TOC for a save, then cast any Sorcerer spell with a slot and roll on table. If not, then cast an attack spell and use TOC
Etc.
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I wonder how the Tides of Chaos actually plays out and how it could be utilised to the maximum. It reads:
So let's assume that ToC has not been used yet and we enter comabt. On first round we cast a Chromatic Orb (and roll a d20 to see if we trigger a wild magic surge naturally) and we decide to get advantage on the attack roll through ToC.
Now, what exactly happens on round 2? Say that we want to cast Chromatic Orb again. We cast a 1+ level spell, so we get a Surge set up last turn. But can we get another ToC advantage on the casting that triggers the Surge, therefore setting ToC up again for the next turn? So I see two possible options:
If 1. is true and we surge and refresh ToC before we make the spell attack of the spell that triggered the surge then we could theoretically set up a Surge every turn (given that we keep casting spells that make a d20 test that we could get advantage on).
If 2. is true and we cannot get advantage on the spell that itself refreshes ToC and if we were casting e.g. Chromatic Orb every turn, only every second turn would we ensure a Wild magic Surge.
TLDR: Does Tides of Chaos refresh on the same casting that activates its previously set up Wild Magic Surge? I am interested in RAW and not in GM fiats.
If Tides of Chaos has not been used yet, I the wording of the ability would suggest to me that when used on the attack roll of a spell, the Wild Magic Surge would happen immediately after the spell. So your first turn would essentially work like this....
1. Cast Chromatic Orb -> ToC for advantage -> Wild Magic Surge -> ToC Refreshes
This would leave ToC refreshed and ready to use on your next turn, for a saving throw before your next turn, etc.
A minor point; It is not required to roll a d20 to see if you trigger a Wild Magic Surge on the first round; Unlike PHB 2014, where the choice for a Wild Magic Sorcerer rolling for a Wild Magic Surge on a normal Sorcerer spell casting is at the DM's discretion, in PHB 2024, whether to roll for it is at the player's discretion.
Admittedly, with the changes to the Wild Magic Surge table in PHB 2024, the potential results are generally more favorable to the Player.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
I think this is not correct for the natural Wild Magic Surge choice after a spell cast, as the PHB 2024 RAW says:
which means you only can roll on the Wild Magic Surge table if you did roll the d20. But the ToC triggers the Wild Magic Surge instantly if its being refreshed.
And for the Tides of Chaos Chain, that's how I see it (assuming ToC is Refreshed on the first round). And I prefer to include the attack roll into the casting, so the refresh happens directly after because the ToC is already used before the spell is finished casting:
Round 1
Round 2+
And this could also work for non attack spells, if advantage is allowed on Wild Magic Surge d20 rolls:
Round 1
Round 2
Round 3+
So you have basically 1 fixed Magic Surge per turn and another advantage chance for an magic surge.
Whats your opinion about that? Is it even possible to use the ToC for the d20 Wild Magic Surge roll?
In the first round, the OP said "Tides of Chaos has not been used yet," So there's no need to refresh it on the first round.
Under the 2024 rules, in that particular situation, the player does not have to check for a "natural" Wild Magic Surge unless it's something they want to check for. That's all I meant, there.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Sorry, I understood your comment wrong.
As far as I understood it was the OP's intend to trigger the Wild Magic Surge which would need a d20 roll.
That is also why I posted the idea that you might be able to even trigger both ToC's automatic Wild Magic Surge and the additional (optional) d20 Roll for the Spell Cast.
It would be quite great if it didn't require more setup than this, but I don't really see it working that way. The way I read it ToC gives you advantage on a d20 test. (Now, here it's where it gets pedantic...) The next part comes in a separate sentence: "once you do so, you can't do that again [...]" Therefore I read it as "first you get the advantage and the whole trigger that you used ToC on has finish" and only after that a refresh trigger appears.
And when it comes to the second part of your post, it doesn't work, because "d20 test" doesn't apply to any roll of a d20, but specifically to ability checks, saving throws and attack rolls. Here is the definition:
"D20 Tests encompass the three main d20 rolls of the game: ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws. If something in the game affects D20 Tests, it affects all three of these rolls."
Therefore the roll to trigger a "natural" wild magic surge cannot benefit from the advantage from ToC.
I think you use TOC for initiative as follows:
Give yourself advantage on initiative
Round 1, your turn -- cast any Sorcerer spell with a slot, and roll on table.
Between your turns on round 1 and 2 -- if you make a save, give yourself advantage.
Round 2, your turn: if you used TOC for a save, then cast any Sorcerer spell with a slot and roll on table. If not, then cast an attack spell and use TOC
Etc.