Just for discussion, but a part of multiclassing a Sorcerer doesn't make sense to my brain. Typically, when you multiclass 2 or more classes, you gain the features of another class while the original one(s) stagnates, and that makes total sense. The time spent gaining a new level is instead spent learning new skills or fighting styles, or possibly communing with a patron or deity. A wizard can't learn new spells because he was busy learning to be a super sneaky rogue or an axe swinging barbarian, and so on.
But a Sorcerous Origin is an innate trait dictated by their bloodline. Note, I'm talking more about subclass features than spellcasting ability here. In my mind, subclass features are intrinsically tied to character level rather than class level. So once a Sorcerous Origin is established, the level 6, 14, 18, and 20 features should still be applied, regardless of any multiclass choices, as they are a result of the Sorcerer's growing personal power and not any kind of training, and should be treated more like a racial feature than a class feature. Otherwise it's like saying, "I skipped puberty because I wanted to become a doctor." All other classes require a conscious choice on the part of the character that determines their "profession," but a Sorcerer just IS a sorcerer, with no choice in the matter. And barring divine intervention, can never change their bloodline.
Obviously, mechanically this could never work because everyone would take one level of Sorcerer to get the additional benefits, regardless of spending the next 19 levels as a Barbarian and never slinging a spell. Maybe a compromise could work, whereby at the levels where a class feature is granted, the player gets to choose between the Sorcerous feature or the multiclassed feature. I don't know. Maybe one of you fine folks has a better explanation of why traits tied to your ancestry would be affected by the equivalent of going to college or taking up parkour.
I'll give my take on this using Draconic Bloodline.
Some time ago, my ancestry was either blessed with magic by a draconic entity, or I have literal draconic blood by way of one of my ancestors being a dragon. "Some time ago" is more or less the only historical requirement, and this is broad enough to represent my parents or as far back as 20+ generations.
Then there is the question of how powerful that specific draconic entity was. Was it an Ancient Red Dragon spreading his seed Bhaal-style throughout the world, or a Young Copper Dragon that fell in love with a witty Bard? Maybe instead of mating, Tiamat/Bahamut themselves may have cursed/blessed one of their enemies/followers. All of this would have flowed through my family veins into me. You can even include Dragonborn mating with other races.
I say from here how far back the draconic bloodline goes in relation to how powerful the entity which was the initial source of my draconic heritage plays a role in the how diluted my bloodline has become, and this can be mechanically represented by my characters levels. If my father was an Ancient Red Dragon, then you better believe I have the capabilities of a 20th-level Draconic Sorcerer. If my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandmother was a Young Copper Dragon, I may very well be a multiclass Bard 19/Draconic Sorcerer 1.
Furthermore, it could be a passive gene passed along for generations that only manifests itself in me. Perhaps my ancestors between me and the source only showed little signs such as scaly skin with no magical powers, or my great-uncle Stan was a Mastermind Rogue with the Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper feats.
A Dragon god could skip bloodline altogether, or place a blessing/curse that magically manifests one every so many generations, or when the Prophecy dictates that their chosen one has been born to the realm.
The way I see it - the Sorcerer's magic may be innate - but they still have to expend a lot of time and energy strengthening their attunement to it. If they spend that time trying to be a sneaky Rogue - they're not putting the effort into their magic to improve their connection to it.
I'll give my take on this using Draconic Bloodline.
Some time ago, my ancestry was either blessed with magic by a draconic entity, or I have literal draconic blood by way of one of my ancestors being a dragon. "Some time ago" is more or less the only historical requirement, and this is broad enough to represent my parents or as far back as 20+ generations.
Then there is the question of how powerful that specific draconic entity was. Was it an Ancient Red Dragon spreading his seed Bhaal-style throughout the world, or a Young Copper Dragon that fell in love with a witty Bard? Maybe instead of mating, Tiamat/Bahamut themselves may have cursed/blessed one of their enemies/followers. All of this would have flowed through my family veins into me. You can even include Dragonborn mating with other races.
I say from here how far back the draconic bloodline goes in relation to how powerful the entity which was the initial source of my draconic heritage plays a role in the how diluted my bloodline has become, and this can be mechanically represented by my characters levels. If my father was an Ancient Red Dragon, then you better believe I have the capabilities of a 20th-level Draconic Sorcerer. If my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandmother was a Young Copper Dragon, I may very well be a multiclass Bard 19/Draconic Sorcerer 1.
Furthermore, it could be a passive gene passed along for generations that only manifests itself in me. Perhaps my ancestors between me and the source only showed little signs such as scaly skin with no magical powers, or my great-uncle Stan was a Mastermind Rogue with the Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper feats.
A Dragon god could skip bloodline altogether, or place a blessing/curse that magically manifests one every so many generations, or when the Prophecy dictates that their chosen one has been born to the realm.
From a role play perspective, a diluted bloodline makes sense. Mechanically, I still don't see it. Unless training to be sneaky-sneaky somehow dampens the manifestation of your genetic traits, as you grow (age) you would still be affected by the genetic abnormalities of your bloodline.
The way I see it - the Sorcerer's magic may be innate - but they still have to expend a lot of time and energy strengthening their attunement to it. If they spend that time trying to be a sneaky Rogue - they're not putting the effort into their magic to improve their connection to it.
That is why I stated I was referring to the subclass features rather than their magic. Take the 14th level Dragon Wings of a Draconic Sorcerer, for example. The description states:
Dragon Wings
At 14th level, you gain the ability to sprout a pair of dragon wings from your back
It is an ability that you gain. It is not magic or something that must be learned. A genetic mutation, if you will. Why would the career path you choose affect this mutation?
It is an ability that you gain. It is not magic or something that must be learned. A genetic mutation, if you will. Why would the career path you choose affect this mutation?
That's the thing I think it is something that must be learned. You must strengthen your connection to whatever your ancestral origin is in order to be able to get those features - and that I don't believe comes by just getting stronger in general. You need to push your connection to it's limits and without that effort - no features no extra magic no metamagic etc.
From a role play perspective, a diluted bloodline makes sense. Mechanically, I still don't see it.
The mechanics are how you reflect the roleplay in this situation. If you only take enough levels of sorcerer to develop a handful of bloodline traits, that represents having the diluted bloodline. Two people with the same genetic abnormality don't necessarily develop it at the same rate. A level 1 sorcerer has the same genetic trait of a level 20 sorcerer, it just never got "worse" in the same way that many real-life diseases may be fatal, benign, or at least manageable with proper treatment. You really have to think of bloodlines as a spectrum with your levels in sorcerer reflecting where you lie on that spectrum.
Edit: I do want to point out that Emmber and I are coming at this from two different angles, but I believe both are valid. Neither one was to be THE way a sorcerer develops their traits. You can come up with any other completely different option as long as the source somehow "comes from within."
That's the thing I think it is something that must be learned. You must strengthen your connection to whatever your ancestral origin is in order to be able to get those features - and that I don't believe comes by just getting stronger in general. You need to push your connection to it's limits and without that effort - no features no extra magic no metamagic etc.
You don't learn genetic traits which, to me, these are. You don't have to push a connection to grow facial hair or breasts. If you it's in your blood to get them, you get them.
The mechanics are how you reflect the roleplay in this situation. If you only take enough levels of sorcerer to develop a handful of bloodline traits, that represents having the diluted bloodline. Two people with the same genetic abnormality don't necessarily develop it at the same rate. A level 1 sorcerer has the same genetic trait of a level 20 sorcerer, it just never got "worse" in the same way that many real-life diseases may be fatal, benign, or at least manageable with proper treatment. You really have to think of bloodlines as a spectrum with your levels in sorcerer reflecting where you lie on that spectrum.
I can mostly get behind that explanation. The genes may or may not manifest over time. It does not, however, explain how multiclassing would prevent the chance of traits showing over time. One could argue that the use of a Sorcerer's abilities increase the chance of the traits manifesting, thereby multiclassing reduces the chances, but so long as you are still using abilities of even 1 level of Sorcerer there remains a small percentage chance of gaining those traits. Basically, I liken Sorcerers in D&D to Mutants in Marvel Comics. You can choose to be whatever you want, but Mutants will always be Mutants and Sorcerers will always be Sorcerers. It's the only class that can not just give up what it is to be something else.
Edit: I do want to point out that Emmber and I are coming at this from two different angles, but I believe both are valid. Neither one was to be THE way a sorcerer develops their traits. You can come up with any other completely different option as long as the source somehow "comes from within."
Correct! All valid points and I appreciate you both engaging me on this! I'm not trying to say anyone should take my way of thinking as law. Far from it, in fact. Sometimes my science brain doesn't jive with my fantasy brain and I end up in discussions like this. :) But I find them entertaining and they increase my understanding of how others see an issue.
Just because someone is predisposed to be athletic does not mean they will just randomly get muscle
Just because someone is predisposed to get a disorder does not mean they get the disorder.
when you are leveling up you are meditating or studying on how to awaken your ancestry.
If you don't work out your genetic traits they will not improve and will go dormant. its the same with your immune system or your muscles or other physical traits
you might have the DNA to make something but unless you activate that Gene it will not be present.
its a different type of gene than your hair color or your skin. it needs something to activate it
Rules are made from a balance-perspective, and then players adapt story etc. accordingly.
In character you dont know what you would gain at the next level, so if tou dont gain wings you simply dont have to think of it as a lost ability - it was never part of your progression.
as a multiclass character it is easiest to envision the combination of all class levels as your own class, then you see what is in store for you. Everything else is sunk cost and not really relevant :)
You are thinking about these as if they are racial bonuses. They are not.
A Sorcerer is not a Sorcerer just because they have a bloodline. They are only able to be Sorcerers because of their bloodline. The benefits of that bloodline only awaken by actively training as a Sorcerer.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Why should your bloodline abilities progress on a schedule? Just because your character got older or grew more powerful in a generic sense, does not mean that abilities should automatically unlock. Think of it instead of a genetic mutation, more of a 'disease' for lack of a better term. You're an asymptomatic carrier of those powers, however, nothing has actually triggered them yet. Until they are triggered by something (gaining levels in the sorcerer class), the latent ability remains locked. Once the triggering event happens, that ability blooms and becomes active. If the triggering event never happens, you simply remain an asympotmatic carrier rather than a symptomatic carrier.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Just because your Sorcerous power comes from your bloodline, it doesn't mean it all comes automatically. After all, leveling up isn't based on age but experience. When you gain a level you choose which class to progress in. Is it a bit backwards, deciding after the fact what you got better in? Sure, a little. As much as I'm not a big Skyrim fan, their mechanic of having you level up in different abilities based on how often you actually use them does have some logic to it. But for things like this it's best to remember what the G in RPG stands for, and not get too caught up with how it might work in real life. :)
Just for discussion, but a part of multiclassing a Sorcerer doesn't make sense to my brain. Typically, when you multiclass 2 or more classes, you gain the features of another class while the sip calculatorcrossword solverepfo original one(s) stagnates, and that makes total sense. The time spent gaining a new level is instead spent learning new skills or fightingstyles, or possibly communing with a patron or deity. A wizard can't learn new spells because he was busy learning to be a super sneaky rogue or an axe swinging barbarian, and so on.
But a Sorcerous Origin is an innate trait dictated by their bloodline. Note, I'm talking more about subclass features than spellcasting ability here. In my mind, subclass features are intrinsically tied to character level rather than class level. So once a Sorcerous Origin is established, the level 6, 14, 18, and 20 features should still be applied, regardless of any multiclass choices, as they are a result of the Sorcerer's growing personal power and not any kind of training, and should be treated more like a racial feature than a class feature. Otherwise it's like saying, "I skipped puberty because I wanted to become a doctor." All other classes require a conscious choice on the part of the character that determines their "profession," but a Sorcerer just IS a sorcerer, with no choice in the matter. And barring divine intervention, can never change their bloodline.
Obviously, mechanically this could never work because everyone would take one level of Sorcerer to get the additional benefits, regardless of spending the next 19 levels as a Barbarian and never slinging a spell. Maybe a compromise could work, whereby at the levels where a class feature is granted, the player gets to choose between the Sorcerous feature or the multiclassed feature. I don't know. Maybe one of you fine folks has a better explanation of why traits tied to your ancestry would be affected by the equivalent of going to college or taking up parkour.
Think of it instead of a genetic mutation, more of a 'disease' for lack of a better term. You're an asymptomatic carrier of those powers, however, nothing has actually triggered them yet. Until they are triggered by something (gaining levels in the sorcerer class), the latent ability remains locked.
Just for discussion, but a part of multiclassing a Sorcerer doesn't make sense to my brain. Typically, when you multiclass 2 or more classes, you gain the features of another class while the original one(s) stagnates, and that makes total sense. The time spent gaining a new level is instead spent learning new skills or fighting styles, or possibly communing with a patron or deity. A wizard can't learn new spells because he was busy learning to be a super sneaky rogue or an axe swinging barbarian, and so on.
But a Sorcerous Origin is an innate trait dictated by their bloodline. Note, I'm talking more about subclass features than spellcasting ability here. In my mind, subclass features are intrinsically tied to character level rather than class level. So once a Sorcerous Origin is established, the level 6, 14, 18, and 20 features should still be applied, regardless of any multiclass choices, as they are a result of the Sorcerer's growing personal power and not any kind of training, and should be treated more like a racial feature than a class feature. Otherwise it's like saying, "I skipped puberty because I wanted to become a doctor." All other classes require a conscious choice on the part of the character that determines their "profession," but a Sorcerer just IS a sorcerer, with no choice in the matter. And barring divine intervention, can never change their bloodline.
Obviously, mechanically this could never work because everyone would take one level of Sorcerer to get the additional benefits, regardless of spending the next 19 levels as a Barbarian and never slinging a spell. Maybe a compromise could work, whereby at the levels where a class feature is granted, the player gets to choose between the Sorcerous feature or the multiclassed feature. I don't know. Maybe one of you fine folks has a better explanation of why traits tied to your ancestry would be affected by the equivalent of going to college or taking up parkour.
I'll give my take on this using Draconic Bloodline.
Some time ago, my ancestry was either blessed with magic by a draconic entity, or I have literal draconic blood by way of one of my ancestors being a dragon. "Some time ago" is more or less the only historical requirement, and this is broad enough to represent my parents or as far back as 20+ generations.
Then there is the question of how powerful that specific draconic entity was. Was it an Ancient Red Dragon spreading his seed Bhaal-style throughout the world, or a Young Copper Dragon that fell in love with a witty Bard? Maybe instead of mating, Tiamat/Bahamut themselves may have cursed/blessed one of their enemies/followers. All of this would have flowed through my family veins into me. You can even include Dragonborn mating with other races.
I say from here how far back the draconic bloodline goes in relation to how powerful the entity which was the initial source of my draconic heritage plays a role in the how diluted my bloodline has become, and this can be mechanically represented by my characters levels. If my father was an Ancient Red Dragon, then you better believe I have the capabilities of a 20th-level Draconic Sorcerer. If my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandmother was a Young Copper Dragon, I may very well be a multiclass Bard 19/Draconic Sorcerer 1.
Furthermore, it could be a passive gene passed along for generations that only manifests itself in me. Perhaps my ancestors between me and the source only showed little signs such as scaly skin with no magical powers, or my great-uncle Stan was a Mastermind Rogue with the Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper feats.
A Dragon god could skip bloodline altogether, or place a blessing/curse that magically manifests one every so many generations, or when the Prophecy dictates that their chosen one has been born to the realm.
The way I see it - the Sorcerer's magic may be innate - but they still have to expend a lot of time and energy strengthening their attunement to it. If they spend that time trying to be a sneaky Rogue - they're not putting the effort into their magic to improve their connection to it.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
From a role play perspective, a diluted bloodline makes sense. Mechanically, I still don't see it. Unless training to be sneaky-sneaky somehow dampens the manifestation of your genetic traits, as you grow (age) you would still be affected by the genetic abnormalities of your bloodline.
That is why I stated I was referring to the subclass features rather than their magic. Take the 14th level Dragon Wings of a Draconic Sorcerer, for example. The description states:
It is an ability that you gain. It is not magic or something that must be learned. A genetic mutation, if you will. Why would the career path you choose affect this mutation?
That's the thing I think it is something that must be learned. You must strengthen your connection to whatever your ancestral origin is in order to be able to get those features - and that I don't believe comes by just getting stronger in general. You need to push your connection to it's limits and without that effort - no features no extra magic no metamagic etc.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
The mechanics are how you reflect the roleplay in this situation. If you only take enough levels of sorcerer to develop a handful of bloodline traits, that represents having the diluted bloodline. Two people with the same genetic abnormality don't necessarily develop it at the same rate. A level 1 sorcerer has the same genetic trait of a level 20 sorcerer, it just never got "worse" in the same way that many real-life diseases may be fatal, benign, or at least manageable with proper treatment. You really have to think of bloodlines as a spectrum with your levels in sorcerer reflecting where you lie on that spectrum.
Edit: I do want to point out that Emmber and I are coming at this from two different angles, but I believe both are valid. Neither one was to be THE way a sorcerer develops their traits. You can come up with any other completely different option as long as the source somehow "comes from within."
You don't learn genetic traits which, to me, these are. You don't have to push a connection to grow facial hair or breasts. If you it's in your blood to get them, you get them.
I can mostly get behind that explanation. The genes may or may not manifest over time. It does not, however, explain how multiclassing would prevent the chance of traits showing over time. One could argue that the use of a Sorcerer's abilities increase the chance of the traits manifesting, thereby multiclassing reduces the chances, but so long as you are still using abilities of even 1 level of Sorcerer there remains a small percentage chance of gaining those traits. Basically, I liken Sorcerers in D&D to Mutants in Marvel Comics. You can choose to be whatever you want, but Mutants will always be Mutants and Sorcerers will always be Sorcerers. It's the only class that can not just give up what it is to be something else.
Correct! All valid points and I appreciate you both engaging me on this! I'm not trying to say anyone should take my way of thinking as law. Far from it, in fact. Sometimes my science brain doesn't jive with my fantasy brain and I end up in discussions like this. :) But I find them entertaining and they increase my understanding of how others see an issue.
Let me explain it like this.
Just because someone is predisposed to be athletic does not mean they will just randomly get muscle
Just because someone is predisposed to get a disorder does not mean they get the disorder.
when you are leveling up you are meditating or studying on how to awaken your ancestry.
If you don't work out your genetic traits they will not improve and will go dormant. its the same with your immune system or your muscles or other physical traits
you might have the DNA to make something but unless you activate that Gene it will not be present.
its a different type of gene than your hair color or your skin. it needs something to activate it
Rules are made from a balance-perspective, and then players adapt story etc. accordingly.
In character you dont know what you would gain at the next level, so if tou dont gain wings you simply dont have to think of it as a lost ability - it was never part of your progression.
as a multiclass character it is easiest to envision the combination of all class levels as your own class, then you see what is in store for you. Everything else is sunk cost and not really relevant :)
You are thinking about these as if they are racial bonuses. They are not.
A Sorcerer is not a Sorcerer just because they have a bloodline. They are only able to be Sorcerers because of their bloodline. The benefits of that bloodline only awaken by actively training as a Sorcerer.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Just because they're innate doesn't mean they don't need practice.
Also, they may not be innate; you can easily reflavor the sorcerer to have a different origin so the whole 'bloodline' thing is a non-issue.
Why should your bloodline abilities progress on a schedule? Just because your character got older or grew more powerful in a generic sense, does not mean that abilities should automatically unlock. Think of it instead of a genetic mutation, more of a 'disease' for lack of a better term. You're an asymptomatic carrier of those powers, however, nothing has actually triggered them yet. Until they are triggered by something (gaining levels in the sorcerer class), the latent ability remains locked. Once the triggering event happens, that ability blooms and becomes active. If the triggering event never happens, you simply remain an asympotmatic carrier rather than a symptomatic carrier.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Just because your Sorcerous power comes from your bloodline, it doesn't mean it all comes automatically. After all, leveling up isn't based on age but experience. When you gain a level you choose which class to progress in. Is it a bit backwards, deciding after the fact what you got better in? Sure, a little. As much as I'm not a big Skyrim fan, their mechanic of having you level up in different abilities based on how often you actually use them does have some logic to it. But for things like this it's best to remember what the G in RPG stands for, and not get too caught up with how it might work in real life. :)
Think of it instead of a genetic mutation, more of a 'disease' for lack of a better term. You're an asymptomatic carrier of those powers, however, nothing has actually triggered them yet. Until they are triggered by something (gaining levels in the sorcerer class), the latent ability remains locked.