Here's the text of Aspect of the Moon you're choosing to ignore:
To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch.
yes and? Your biology no longer requires sleep, so sleep is no longer an requirement for recharging various class features that rely on long rests. It has absolutely nothing to do with my statement that since your body no longer requires sleep, you can no longer become sleep deprived and thus gain no levels of exhaustion from sleep deprivation
I think it's deeply suspect ruling that Aspect of the Moon and Warforged work one way but Trance works another,
its entirely reasonable to also state that elves are also immune to sleep deprivation also
It's not about your biology in game, it's about the RAW.
PHB: A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, Fighting, casting Spells, or similar Adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
Using class features over the course of an hour clearly violates the rules as written, a short rest is specifically at least one hour long. Therefore if you want to Coffeelock, you're still exhausted, because you gain levels of exhaustion if you don't complete a long rest.
Which is an optional rule from XGtE, an odd rule that causes exhaustion for going without a long rest because going without sleep has consequences.
If the rule had been worded to give exhaustion for going for extended periods without taking a break instead of for going without sleep it would make a lot more sense, but RAW it does in fact give exhaustion for going without a long rest, whether you need it or not.
lol "an odd rule" that's just like your opinion man. I've never played at a table that didn't have exhaustion happen if you don't rest, not sleep, but rest for a long period, even before Xanathars. If the coffeelock works for your table, that's cool. I'd let 'em play on my table as well because anything the player can do I can do too, and then some in order to create a challenging game.
If you're just going off of another DM's ignorance because Xanathars released an updated rule to help curb coffeelocks that is also backed by crawfords most recent ruling on the topic then you're taking advantage of someone that is going out of their way to be nice to you and provide you with a good time.
If you just want an in character reason because you need the game mechanics to make sense with the world you're playing in, then creating spell energy from your very being is taxing, and therefore you are not resting for a long period, you are taxing your body to make mana juice, and will be tired afterwards because you did not get any rest. Not sleep. Rest.
lol "an odd rule" that's just like your opinion man. I've never played at a table that didn't have exhaustion happen if you don't rest, not sleep, but rest for a long period, even before Xanathars. If the coffeelock works for your table, that's cool. I'd let 'em play on my table as well because anything the player can do I can do too, and then some in order to create a challenging game.
I call it an odd rule because it specifically says that you get exhaustion for going without a long rest because going without sleep has consequences. It's also in the section full of optional rules relating to sleep. Even though it's clearly designed to simulate sleep deprivation, the way it's worded means it still applies to characters that don't need to sleep such as warlocks with the invocation, elves, and warforged.
Here's the text of Aspect of the Moon you're choosing to ignore:
To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch.
yes and? Your biology no longer requires sleep, so sleep is no longer an requirement for recharging various class features that rely on long rests. It has absolutely nothing to do with my statement that since your body no longer requires sleep, you can no longer become sleep deprived and thus gain no levels of exhaustion from sleep deprivation
I think it's deeply suspect ruling that Aspect of the Moon and Warforged work one way but Trance works another,
its entirely reasonable to also state that elves are also immune to sleep deprivation also
It's not about your biology in game, it's about the RAW.
PHB: A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, Fighting, casting Spells, or similar Adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
Using class features over the course of an hour clearly violates the rules as written, a short rest is specifically at least one hour long. Therefore if you want to Coffeelock, you're still exhausted, because you gain levels of exhaustion if you don't complete a long rest.
Which is an optional rule from XGtE, an odd rule that causes exhaustion for going without a long rest because going without sleep has consequences.
If the rule had been worded to give exhaustion for going for extended periods without taking a break instead of for going without sleep it would make a lot more sense, but RAW it does in fact give exhaustion for going without a long rest, whether you need it or not.
lol "an odd rule" that's just like your opinion man. I've never played at a table that didn't have exhaustion happen if you don't rest, not sleep, but rest for a long period, even before Xanathars. If the coffeelock works for your table, that's cool. I'd let 'em play on my table as well because anything the player can do I can do too, and then some in order to create a challenging game.
If you're just going off of another DM's ignorance because Xanathars released an updated rule to help curb coffeelocks that is also backed by crawfords most recent ruling on the topic then you're taking advantage of someone that is going out of their way to be nice to you and provide you with a good time.
If you just want an in character reason because you need the game mechanics to make sense with the world you're playing in, then creating spell energy from your very being is taxing, and therefore you are not resting for a long period, you are taxing your body to make mana juice, and will be tired afterwards because you did not get any rest. Not sleep. Rest.
I would point out that Aspect of the Moon also makes it clear that even though you don't actually sleep. The restrictions on it for what you can do actually means you are not far from it since you can do nothing but lounge about and do a few things that will occupy your mind without your body having to be active, such as reading a book or observing your surroundings. Even though this is not sleep it is still a rest and doing anything more than this would get you exhaustion, and doing more than this is what you would be required to do to not have it count as a long rest.
You avoid long rests, but take either Divine Soul Sorcerer or Celestial Warlock to get Greater Restoration. You use that (preferably in scroll form) to remove any exhaustion you gain.
Its called Cocainelock as the Diamond Dust you need for greater restoration is akin to them snorting cocaine to avoid the effects of exhaustion.
Of course this is assuming you can get that much material component but at least adds another complicated layer lol...
If your DM that lets you abuse this, you might just as well ask for more game-breaking stuff directly.
Well you are level 20, the game is long past broken especially when comparing to what an 20th level Moon druid gets at this point, with their at Will wildshapes being used every turn to just never die
Even if you are doing this at low levels using warlock multiclassing your aversion to long rests already make you very vunerable since your only means of regaining hit points and ending certain debillitating effects is entirely up to your bard and cleric allies with greater restoration and cure wounds, and you might simply not have time to accumulate a lot of power between or during adventures depending on the pace your game moves by, and your spell progression Will be a mess so you might have many spell slots but they wont be very high level, you'd want to have many levels in warlocks to gain sorcery points fast and also sorcerer levels to spend them better, and it could make a lot of sense in universe as your sorcerous blood allows you to store the magical energies of your patron in a more compressed effective form allowing to to attain more of it at once. Its more of an fun challenge that may enrich your game than it is beging the DM for an +3 flame tounge sword at level 1
Power word kill ends that right quick. If you have 100 or fewer hp, no save your character just dies. You don't revert because you took no damage. You just die.
If your DM that lets you abuse this, you might just as well ask for more game-breaking stuff directly.
Well you are level 20, the game is long past broken especially when comparing to what an 20th level Moon druid gets at this point, with their at Will wildshapes being used every turn to just never die
Even if you are doing this at low levels using warlock multiclassing your aversion to long rests already make you very vunerable since your only means of regaining hit points and ending certain debillitating effects is entirely up to your bard and cleric allies with greater restoration and cure wounds, and you might simply not have time to accumulate a lot of power between or during adventures depending on the pace your game moves by, and your spell progression Will be a mess so you might have many spell slots but they wont be very high level, you'd want to have many levels in warlocks to gain sorcery points fast and also sorcerer levels to spend them better, and it could make a lot of sense in universe as your sorcerous blood allows you to store the magical energies of your patron in a more compressed effective form allowing to to attain more of it at once. Its more of an fun challenge that may enrich your game than it is beging the DM for an +3 flame tounge sword at level 1
Power word kill ends that right quick. If you have 100 or fewer hp, no save your character just dies. You don't revert because you took no damage. You just die.
Counterspell is about the only thing I can think of
The first line from Aspect of the moon explicitly says that you no longer need to sleep, something that should logically mean that you never suffer from the effects of sleep deprivation and thus means you should not be subject to this rule that specifically emulates sleep deprivation (and the elvish equivalent for being deprived of a chance to enter trance). Yes technically speaking rules as written a warlock with Aspect of the moon who does not take a long rest would indeed still suffer from exhaustion, but that judgement clearly clashes with the intent of this rule, like this is the most clear example of RAW vs RAI i can think of
You could rule that way at your table - it would definitely upgrade Warforged, who lack the wording you're reacting to that their non-sleep provides the same benefits as sleep. I think it's deeply suspect ruling that Aspect of the Moon and Warforged work one way but Trance works another, in terms of exhaustion, but you do you. Here's the text of Aspect of the Moon you're choosing to ignore:
To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch.
II think that would play more into the idea of how long you took to "rest" and less with how you reseed. You still don't NEED to sleep because it specifically says how you can spend the time doing light activities. So, I think, you'd just need to spend the long amount of time resting to get whatever HP, slots, etc, vs the "smaller" set of rewards a typical short rest gives.
It sounds like it's the ruling that actually showcases the fact that you don't need to sleep. And "in stead, do this":...
It's like saying,
short rest= standing still for x amount of time.
Long rest= standing still AND "sleeping" for y amount of time.
With AotM, long rest=time standing still for y amount of time.
As a GM I would immediately rule that you would be recovering, not gaining, the spell slots and, even if I let that slide, the perpetual lack of consistent rest would accumulate to make your character suffer exhaustion levels. Plus, I don't know how you could spin it so you only got a short rest while your party got long rests.
As a GM I would immediately rule that you would be recovering, not gaining, the spell slots and, even if I let that slide, the perpetual lack of consistent rest would accumulate to make your character suffer exhaustion levels. Plus, I don't know how you could spin it so you only got a short rest while your party got long rests.
1) well the RAW very explicitly makes it clear that you are creating new spell slots, not recovering old ones:
Creating Spell Slots. You can transform unexpended sorcery points into one spell slot as a bonus action on your turn. The Creating Spell Slots table shows the cost of creating a spell slot of a given level. You can create spell slots no higher in level than 5th.
Any spell slot you create with this feature vanishes when you finish a long rest.
which means that this ruling would be making the feature of an already lackluster class even less versatile than it already is for no apparent reason other than to prevent some quite limited exploit that can only occur if you are already 20th level and decide to use on of the worst capstone abilities in the game, and this still does not help you regain spell slots of 6th level or higher (ie the most powerful ones). In the grand scheme of 20th level shenanigans, this is absolutely nothing, at the same level a moon druids can wild shape at-will, making them next to impossible to kill short of shenanigans with disintegrate and power word kill, fighters get completely unmatched sustained damage output, etc etc.
2) exhaustion would be a problem, but luckily for us, both clockwork soul and divine soul sorcerers get greater restoration, as long as you are willing to expend a fortune on crushed diamonds anything is possible. Alternatively some other party member could use use whatever features they have to remove the exhaustion for you
3) long rests and short rests have different requirements. A short rest requires 1 hour of light activity, meanwhile a long rest requires at least 6 hours of proper sleep and 2 hours of light activity. As long as you do not sleep, you qualify for completing a short rest, yet you do not qualify for completing a long rest.
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That seems like an awful lot of effort to go through for something that's not really all that valuable at that level. And it's all dependent on the GM ruling that you can go above your spell-slot limit and that they decree your character doesn't suffer massive drawbacks for staying awake so long beyond what restoration can fix and that your constant insomnia doesn't ALSO qualify as a long rest as well as not saying you unintentionally fall asleep due to staying awake.
There just seems like so many ways this can backfire so easily and you're depending on being a rules lawyer in order to get it to work.
Every dm I have played with has used the forced March rules to shutdown rest skipping. 8 hours of traveling per day. Every hour of travel after is an exhaustion check. I have never done an adventuring day with less than 3 hours of traveling.
If I allowed a player to abuse this in my game, I would rule that if they do it, Greater Restoration can't remove exhaustion gained this way. By the time they hit three levels of exhaustion, there's nothing they can really do with all those extra slots since they have disadvantage on pretty much every d20 roll; attacks, saves, and ability checks.
Have a dozen 3rd level slots to use on Fireball? Oh no, your character just got mind controlled and has disadvantage on the save...
If I allowed a player to abuse this in my game, I would rule that if they do it, Greater Restoration can't remove exhaustion gained this way. By the time they hit three levels of exhaustion, there's nothing they can really do with all those extra slots since they have disadvantage on pretty much every d20 roll; attacks, saves, and ability checks.
Have a dozen 3rd level slots to use on Fireball? Oh no, your character just got mind controlled and has disadvantage on the save...
This thread is so old it predates Tasha's (which was published 4 months later to the day) which added a new way to solve the exhaustion problem, so if you want to solve this by nerfing exhaustion solutions, you'll also need to do something about the Ranger ability to recover from exhaustion on a Short Rest, as otherwise an admittedly very suboptimal build could do the same thing with Ranger 10 via Deft Explorer (you'd also need to be Warlock 1 and Sorcerer 2 at a minimum). It's also worth noting that you'll need characters, including your own NPCs, to track where their exhaustion comes from (which also means you'll have to tell them, which will leak information normally kept hidden in the general case) in case they're targeted with the spell.
Nerfing the spell without adding extra bookkeeping is as simple as making the necessary M component harder to get (you need very high-level casters - e.g. Genielock 17 - to get around that via spells), and/or you can nerf Short Rests the same way the DMG limits Long Rests, by capping the number of Short Rests people can benefit from per day (to, presumably, 3, with the third also consuming your ability to benefit from a Long Rest).
Could also say that, since they're getting so exhausted or w/e from lack of sleep, they can't concentrate anymore. Won't affect a lot of idiot 'fireball is the solution' casters, but I feel certain any sorc who is smart enough to think of this also would rely a lot of concentration checks.
Let's also remember that there is a huge difference between RAW and RAI.
Could also say that, since they're getting so exhausted or w/e from lack of sleep, they can't concentrate anymore. Won't affect a lot of idiot 'fireball is the solution' casters, but I feel certain any sorc who is smart enough to think of this also would rely a lot of concentration checks.
Let's also remember that there is a huge difference between RAW and RAI.
I disagree with the idea that RAW and RAI are different on most occasions. In fact I think the rules actively encourage the meeting point between the two for anything people claim is "vague"
It depends. There's certainly been cases where something was written one way but intended another. And other times where it has a weird phrasing and/or condition or whatever and was intended that way. Not to mention people just make their own rulings on things. So even if this is RAW and RAI the GM can just go 'no, it doesn't work that way here' and that's that.
Edit: I'll be completely honest here. My issue with this whole concept is that I can see it being said by the kind of guy who would GLADLY exclaim that they can do so when the situation is right, but then call it cheating when the enemy does it. And, even if not, that this would be exactly the sort of situation where someone would argue themselves to be TECHNICALLY correct and ignore that everyone else disapproves. So even if it's possible it's probably better to not do this simply to ensure people don't start giving you mean/nasty looks. Remember, the goal of D&D isn't to win, it's to have fun.
I once had a player who wanted to play this, and I just told him not to do the cofeelock thing. In the end he played the sorcerer/warlock, but he didn't ask me to stay up doing short rests. The best solution is to talk to the players. If you see that they intend to abuse the loopholes in the rules, ask them not to do so. Explain to them that this breaks the game, and that it is not fun. And the same can be applied in the other direction. If you have an abusive DM, talk to him. It is always better to reach an agreement than to play as if you were arm wrestling with the rules.
And if you can't reach an agreement, it's better not to play together. We're supposed to play this for fun.
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lol "an odd rule" that's just like your opinion man. I've never played at a table that didn't have exhaustion happen if you don't rest, not sleep, but rest for a long period, even before Xanathars. If the coffeelock works for your table, that's cool. I'd let 'em play on my table as well because anything the player can do I can do too, and then some in order to create a challenging game.
If you're just going off of another DM's ignorance because Xanathars released an updated rule to help curb coffeelocks that is also backed by crawfords most recent ruling on the topic then you're taking advantage of someone that is going out of their way to be nice to you and provide you with a good time.
If you just want an in character reason because you need the game mechanics to make sense with the world you're playing in, then creating spell energy from your very being is taxing, and therefore you are not resting for a long period, you are taxing your body to make mana juice, and will be tired afterwards because you did not get any rest. Not sleep. Rest.
I call it an odd rule because it specifically says that you get exhaustion for going without a long rest because going without sleep has consequences. It's also in the section full of optional rules relating to sleep. Even though it's clearly designed to simulate sleep deprivation, the way it's worded means it still applies to characters that don't need to sleep such as warlocks with the invocation, elves, and warforged.
I would point out that Aspect of the Moon also makes it clear that even though you don't actually sleep. The restrictions on it for what you can do actually means you are not far from it since you can do nothing but lounge about and do a few things that will occupy your mind without your body having to be active, such as reading a book or observing your surroundings. Even though this is not sleep it is still a rest and doing anything more than this would get you exhaustion, and doing more than this is what you would be required to do to not have it count as a long rest.
maybe use a elf or half-elf for trance to remove exaustion
Cocainelock is the way around the exhaustion....
You avoid long rests, but take either Divine Soul Sorcerer or Celestial Warlock to get Greater Restoration. You use that (preferably in scroll form) to remove any exhaustion you gain.
Its called Cocainelock as the Diamond Dust you need for greater restoration is akin to them snorting cocaine to avoid the effects of exhaustion.
Of course this is assuming you can get that much material component but at least adds another complicated layer lol...
.
Power word kill ends that right quick. If you have 100 or fewer hp, no save your character just dies. You don't revert because you took no damage. You just die.
Counterspell is about the only thing I can think of
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't find a rule, that states, that you can get an epic boon only once. 🤔
As a GM I would immediately rule that you would be recovering, not gaining, the spell slots and, even if I let that slide, the perpetual lack of consistent rest would accumulate to make your character suffer exhaustion levels. Plus, I don't know how you could spin it so you only got a short rest while your party got long rests.
1) well the RAW very explicitly makes it clear that you are creating new spell slots, not recovering old ones:
which means that this ruling would be making the feature of an already lackluster class even less versatile than it already is for no apparent reason other than to prevent some quite limited exploit that can only occur if you are already 20th level and decide to use on of the worst capstone abilities in the game, and this still does not help you regain spell slots of 6th level or higher (ie the most powerful ones).
In the grand scheme of 20th level shenanigans, this is absolutely nothing, at the same level a moon druids can wild shape at-will, making them next to impossible to kill short of shenanigans with disintegrate and power word kill, fighters get completely unmatched sustained damage output, etc etc.
2) exhaustion would be a problem, but luckily for us, both clockwork soul and divine soul sorcerers get greater restoration, as long as you are willing to expend a fortune on crushed diamonds anything is possible. Alternatively some other party member could use use whatever features they have to remove the exhaustion for you
3) long rests and short rests have different requirements. A short rest requires 1 hour of light activity, meanwhile a long rest requires at least 6 hours of proper sleep and 2 hours of light activity. As long as you do not sleep, you qualify for completing a short rest, yet you do not qualify for completing a long rest.
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That seems like an awful lot of effort to go through for something that's not really all that valuable at that level. And it's all dependent on the GM ruling that you can go above your spell-slot limit and that they decree your character doesn't suffer massive drawbacks for staying awake so long beyond what restoration can fix and that your constant insomnia doesn't ALSO qualify as a long rest as well as not saying you unintentionally fall asleep due to staying awake.
There just seems like so many ways this can backfire so easily and you're depending on being a rules lawyer in order to get it to work.
Every dm I have played with has used the forced March rules to shutdown rest skipping. 8 hours of traveling per day. Every hour of travel after is an exhaustion check. I have never done an adventuring day with less than 3 hours of traveling.
If I allowed a player to abuse this in my game, I would rule that if they do it, Greater Restoration can't remove exhaustion gained this way. By the time they hit three levels of exhaustion, there's nothing they can really do with all those extra slots since they have disadvantage on pretty much every d20 roll; attacks, saves, and ability checks.
Have a dozen 3rd level slots to use on Fireball? Oh no, your character just got mind controlled and has disadvantage on the save...
This thread is so old it predates Tasha's (which was published 4 months later to the day) which added a new way to solve the exhaustion problem, so if you want to solve this by nerfing exhaustion solutions, you'll also need to do something about the Ranger ability to recover from exhaustion on a Short Rest, as otherwise an admittedly very suboptimal build could do the same thing with Ranger 10 via Deft Explorer (you'd also need to be Warlock 1 and Sorcerer 2 at a minimum). It's also worth noting that you'll need characters, including your own NPCs, to track where their exhaustion comes from (which also means you'll have to tell them, which will leak information normally kept hidden in the general case) in case they're targeted with the spell.
Nerfing the spell without adding extra bookkeeping is as simple as making the necessary M component harder to get (you need very high-level casters - e.g. Genielock 17 - to get around that via spells), and/or you can nerf Short Rests the same way the DMG limits Long Rests, by capping the number of Short Rests people can benefit from per day (to, presumably, 3, with the third also consuming your ability to benefit from a Long Rest).
Could also say that, since they're getting so exhausted or w/e from lack of sleep, they can't concentrate anymore. Won't affect a lot of idiot 'fireball is the solution' casters, but I feel certain any sorc who is smart enough to think of this also would rely a lot of concentration checks.
Let's also remember that there is a huge difference between RAW and RAI.
I disagree with the idea that RAW and RAI are different on most occasions. In fact I think the rules actively encourage the meeting point between the two for anything people claim is "vague"
It depends. There's certainly been cases where something was written one way but intended another. And other times where it has a weird phrasing and/or condition or whatever and was intended that way. Not to mention people just make their own rulings on things. So even if this is RAW and RAI the GM can just go 'no, it doesn't work that way here' and that's that.
Edit: I'll be completely honest here. My issue with this whole concept is that I can see it being said by the kind of guy who would GLADLY exclaim that they can do so when the situation is right, but then call it cheating when the enemy does it. And, even if not, that this would be exactly the sort of situation where someone would argue themselves to be TECHNICALLY correct and ignore that everyone else disapproves. So even if it's possible it's probably better to not do this simply to ensure people don't start giving you mean/nasty looks. Remember, the goal of D&D isn't to win, it's to have fun.
I once had a player who wanted to play this, and I just told him not to do the cofeelock thing. In the end he played the sorcerer/warlock, but he didn't ask me to stay up doing short rests.
The best solution is to talk to the players. If you see that they intend to abuse the loopholes in the rules, ask them not to do so. Explain to them that this breaks the game, and that it is not fun. And the same can be applied in the other direction. If you have an abusive DM, talk to him. It is always better to reach an agreement than to play as if you were arm wrestling with the rules.
And if you can't reach an agreement, it's better not to play together. We're supposed to play this for fun.