1: while there is a limit to how many sorcery points you can have at one time, there is no limit to the number of extra spell slots you can gain from flexible casting
2: sorcerous restoration has no limit to the number of times it can be used between long rests
3: spell slots from flexible casting Only dissapear once you finish a long rest, so you can hoard them as much as you want
The trick is to avoid long rests and to finish as many short rests as possible in order to slowly accumulate more power in the form of spell slots, shure you Will end up an sleep deprived gremlin who cannot Think straight, and you will using xanatars guide to everything risk gaining exhaustion levels as you do, but this should be no problem as you are proficient in con saves and should also by now have a party member with greater restoration (or have it yourself if you are a divine soul), with 7 consecutive 24 hour periods or one week of work you should have an additional 96 5th level spell slots and no sorcery points, as well as all your other spell slots.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Can't you just Coffelock and take Aspect of the Moon? Convert Warlock slots to Sorcery Points?
well yeah, this is by no means the most efficient way to do this, thing with aspect of the moon is that while it does indeed help you avoid sleep deprivation and certain death, it also puts you in the risk of finishing a long rest on accident, since suddenly the only difference between a long rest and a short rest is how much time you spend, more or less forcing you to interrupt your productive resting with 1 hour of hard activity for every 7 hours of light activity to prevent a long rest from occurring
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Can't you just Coffelock and take Aspect of the Moon? Convert Warlock slots to Sorcery Points?
well yeah, this is by no means the most efficient way to do this, thing with aspect of the moon is that while it does indeed help you avoid sleep deprivation and certain death, it also puts you in the risk of finishing a long rest on accident, since suddenly the only difference between a long rest and a short rest is how much time you spend, more or less forcing you to interrupt your productive resting with 1 hour of hard activity for every 7 hours of light activity to prevent a long rest from occurring
Depends on your DM. If you're converting spell slots after every short rest, there's no way to retroactively interpret it as a long rest, since if you'd taken a long rest you wouldn't have gotten those spell slots.
If your DM that lets you abuse this, you might just as well ask for more game-breaking stuff directly.
Well you are level 20, the game is long past broken especially when comparing to what an 20th level Moon druid gets at this point, with their at Will wildshapes being used every turn to just never die
Even if you are doing this at low levels using warlock multiclassing your aversion to long rests already make you very vunerable since your only means of regaining hit points and ending certain debillitating effects is entirely up to your bard and cleric allies with greater restoration and cure wounds, and you might simply not have time to accumulate a lot of power between or during adventures depending on the pace your game moves by, and your spell progression Will be a mess so you might have many spell slots but they wont be very high level, you'd want to have many levels in warlocks to gain sorcery points fast and also sorcerer levels to spend them better, and it could make a lot of sense in universe as your sorcerous blood allows you to store the magical energies of your patron in a more compressed effective form allowing to to attain more of it at once. Its more of an fun challenge that may enrich your game than it is beging the DM for an +3 flame tounge sword at level 1
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I don't believe the issue is the fact that it is a gamebreaking combo, but that it's gamebreaking far earlier than a capstone ability like the druid's at will wildshape.
So personally as a DM I would rule that flexible casting slots would RECOVER spell slots rather than CREATE them. Which would prevent the abuse that this type of build makes.
But of course! It's all about the DM and I'm not yours! So have fun with it!
I don't believe the issue is the fact that it is a gamebreaking combo, but that it's gamebreaking far earlier than a capstone ability like the druid's at will wildshape.
So personally as a DM I would rule that flexible casting slots would RECOVER spell slots rather than CREATE them. Which would prevent the abuse that this type of build makes.
But of course! It's all about the DM and I'm not yours! So have fun with it!
Which is a reasonable ruling, and pretty close to the ruling I would make myself, but it does slightly weaken sorcerers as they can no longer create 4th and 5th level spell slots before level 7 and 9 respectively.
I don't believe the issue is the fact that it is a gamebreaking combo, but that it's gamebreaking far earlier than a capstone ability like the druid's at will wildshape.
So personally as a DM I would rule that flexible casting slots would RECOVER spell slots rather than CREATE them. Which would prevent the abuse that this type of build makes.
But of course! It's all about the DM and I'm not yours! So have fun with it!
Which is a reasonable ruling, and pretty close to the ruling I would make myself, but it does slightly weaken sorcerers as they can no longer create 4th and 5th level spell slots before level 7 and 9 respectively.
a more reasonable ruling would simply be to prevent sorcery points from being gained by converting warlock spell slots. That way the only way you can start to accumulate spell slots over time via repeated short rests is if you are 20th level, and by then you are SUPPOSED to be powerful, many do consider the sorcerer capstone to be one of the weaker ones in the game, this trick will just ease that issue in that case. There is a reason why i did not mention coffelocks in the original post, they are an exploit, there is no need to significantly nerf the sorcerer to fix an unintended combination. Or you can separate the sorcery points gained from warlock spell slots from your normal sorcery points and say that those gained from warlock slots dissapear after one or two short rests (with the caveat that you have to spend your normal sorcery points first and your "sorclock points" only once the normal ones run out)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
For those supporting warlock multi-class (coffeelock build) Jeremy has weighed in saying that one way to look at it is the spell slots from pact magic are separate from Spell casting spell slots and the only cross use would be casting spells. https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1029177242985742337?lang=en
as for sorcerer only build: a Devine soul sorcerer should be able to get Greater restoration and has an ability that can prevent the failed exhaustion save as well.
For those supporting warlock multi-class (coffeelock build) Jeremy has weighed in saying that one way to look at it is the spell slots from pact magic are separate from Spell casting spell slots and the only cross use would be casting spells. https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1029177242985742337?lang=en
as for sorcerer only build: a Devine soul sorcerer should be able to get Greater restoration and has an ability that can prevent the failed exhaustion save as well.
there is also this statement, https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/05/12/covert-warlock-spell-slots-to-sorcery-points/ but i guess you can change your mind after 3 years, was looking for that specific quote but i could not find it, again if you are using the (more recent) crawford interpreteation of the rules this exploit should not be too powerful given the fact that you need to be 20th level to do it
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Thanks for looking that up. The old post was referenced in a subtweet. It just said Something about jc changing his mind but the connection was based on a deleted post (removed by the author) so I couldn't find it either. Still the new one seems to imply it's more RAI and that RAW is vague.
Quick note on coffeelock: Aspect of the Moon does not let you stop taking long rests, it lets you be more active during your long rests. Like how OP was using the Greater Restoration spell to solve the problem, to stop taking long rests entirely you either need a special rule letting you (I don't know of any) or a way to deal with the exhaustion problem (such as casting Greater Restoration).
Quick note on coffeelock: Aspect of the Moon does not let you stop taking long rests, it lets you be more active during your long rests. Like how OP was using the Greater Restoration spell to solve the problem, to stop taking long rests entirely you either need a special rule letting you (I don't know of any) or a way to deal with the exhaustion problem (such as casting Greater Restoration).
this section from Xanatar's guide to everything, the very same book Aspect of the moon is from says this
Going without a Long Rest
A long rest is never mandatory, but going without sleep does have its consequences. If you want to account for the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures, use these rules.
The first line from Aspect of the moon explicitly says that you no longer need to sleep, something that should logically mean that you never suffer from the effects of sleep deprivation and thus means you should not be subject to this rule that specifically emulates sleep deprivation (and the elvish equivalent for being deprived of a chance to enter trance). Yes technically speaking rules as written a warlock with Aspect of the moon who does not take a long rest would indeed still suffer from exhaustion, but that judgement clearly clashes with the intent of this rule, like this is the most clear example of RAW vs RAI i can think of
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The first line from Aspect of the moon explicitly says that you no longer need to sleep, something that should logically mean that you never suffer from the effects of sleep deprivation and thus means you should not be subject to this rule that specifically emulates sleep deprivation (and the elvish equivalent for being deprived of a chance to enter trance). Yes technically speaking rules as written a warlock with Aspect of the moon who does not take a long rest would indeed still suffer from exhaustion, but that judgement clearly clashes with the intent of this rule, like this is the most clear example of RAW vs RAI i can think of
You could rule that way at your table - it would definitely upgrade Warforged, who lack the wording you're reacting to that their non-sleep provides the same benefits as sleep. I think it's deeply suspect ruling that Aspect of the Moon and Warforged work one way but Trance works another, in terms of exhaustion, but you do you. Here's the text of Aspect of the Moon you're choosing to ignore:
To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch.
Here's the text of Aspect of the Moon you're choosing to ignore:
To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch.
yes and? Your biology no longer requires sleep, so sleep is no longer an requirement for recharging various class features that rely on long rests. It has absolutely nothing to do with my statement that since your body no longer requires sleep, you can no longer become sleep deprived and thus gain no levels of exhaustion from sleep deprivation
It is entirely reasonable and logical to rule that creatures that don't need sleep don't suffer ill effects from going without long rests. It is also not the (optional) rule given in XGtE. According to the (optional) rule, creatures that go more than 24hrs without a long rest must save or suffer a level of exhaustion.
Here's the text of Aspect of the Moon you're choosing to ignore:
To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch.
yes and? Your biology no longer requires sleep, so sleep is no longer an requirement for recharging various class features that rely on long rests. It has absolutely nothing to do with my statement that since your body no longer requires sleep, you can no longer become sleep deprived and thus gain no levels of exhaustion from sleep deprivation
I think it's deeply suspect ruling that Aspect of the Moon and Warforged work one way but Trance works another,
its entirely reasonable to also state that elves are also immune to sleep deprivation also
It's not about your biology in game, it's about the RAW.
PHB: A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, Fighting, casting Spells, or similar Adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
Using class features over the course of an hour clearly violates the rules as written, a short rest is specifically at least one hour long. Therefore if you want to Coffeelock, you're still exhausted, because you gain levels of exhaustion if you don't complete a long rest.
Here's the text of Aspect of the Moon you're choosing to ignore:
To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch.
yes and? Your biology no longer requires sleep, so sleep is no longer an requirement for recharging various class features that rely on long rests. It has absolutely nothing to do with my statement that since your body no longer requires sleep, you can no longer become sleep deprived and thus gain no levels of exhaustion from sleep deprivation
I think it's deeply suspect ruling that Aspect of the Moon and Warforged work one way but Trance works another,
its entirely reasonable to also state that elves are also immune to sleep deprivation also
It's not about your biology in game, it's about the RAW.
PHB: A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, Fighting, casting Spells, or similar Adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
Using class features over the course of an hour clearly violates the rules as written, a short rest is specifically at least one hour long. Therefore if you want to Coffeelock, you're still exhausted, because you gain levels of exhaustion if you don't complete a long rest.
Which is an optional rule from XGtE, an odd rule that causes exhaustion for going without a long rest because going without sleep has consequences.
If the rule had been worded to give exhaustion for going for extended periods without taking a break instead of for going without sleep it would make a lot more sense, but RAW it does in fact give exhaustion for going without a long rest, whether you need it or not.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
All you need is three observations:
1: while there is a limit to how many sorcery points you can have at one time, there is no limit to the number of extra spell slots you can gain from flexible casting
2: sorcerous restoration has no limit to the number of times it can be used between long rests
3: spell slots from flexible casting Only dissapear once you finish a long rest, so you can hoard them as much as you want
The trick is to avoid long rests and to finish as many short rests as possible in order to slowly accumulate more power in the form of spell slots, shure you Will end up an sleep deprived gremlin who cannot Think straight, and you will using xanatars guide to everything risk gaining exhaustion levels as you do, but this should be no problem as you are proficient in con saves and should also by now have a party member with greater restoration (or have it yourself if you are a divine soul), with 7 consecutive 24 hour periods or one week of work you should have an additional 96 5th level spell slots and no sorcery points, as well as all your other spell slots.
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Can't you just Coffelock and take Aspect of the Moon? Convert Warlock slots to Sorcery Points?
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Yeah, multiclassing warlock is probably the easiest way to do this. It only has to be one level, too.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
well yeah, this is by no means the most efficient way to do this, thing with aspect of the moon is that while it does indeed help you avoid sleep deprivation and certain death, it also puts you in the risk of finishing a long rest on accident, since suddenly the only difference between a long rest and a short rest is how much time you spend, more or less forcing you to interrupt your productive resting with 1 hour of hard activity for every 7 hours of light activity to prevent a long rest from occurring
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Depends on your DM. If you're converting spell slots after every short rest, there's no way to retroactively interpret it as a long rest, since if you'd taken a long rest you wouldn't have gotten those spell slots.
If your DM that lets you abuse this, you might just as well ask for more game-breaking stuff directly.
Well you are level 20, the game is long past broken especially when comparing to what an 20th level Moon druid gets at this point, with their at Will wildshapes being used every turn to just never die
Even if you are doing this at low levels using warlock multiclassing your aversion to long rests already make you very vunerable since your only means of regaining hit points and ending certain debillitating effects is entirely up to your bard and cleric allies with greater restoration and cure wounds, and you might simply not have time to accumulate a lot of power between or during adventures depending on the pace your game moves by, and your spell progression Will be a mess so you might have many spell slots but they wont be very high level, you'd want to have many levels in warlocks to gain sorcery points fast and also sorcerer levels to spend them better, and it could make a lot of sense in universe as your sorcerous blood allows you to store the magical energies of your patron in a more compressed effective form allowing to to attain more of it at once. Its more of an fun challenge that may enrich your game than it is beging the DM for an +3 flame tounge sword at level 1
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I don't believe the issue is the fact that it is a gamebreaking combo, but that it's gamebreaking far earlier than a capstone ability like the druid's at will wildshape.
So personally as a DM I would rule that flexible casting slots would RECOVER spell slots rather than CREATE them. Which would prevent the abuse that this type of build makes.
But of course! It's all about the DM and I'm not yours! So have fun with it!
Sunday DM and creator of homebrew for both DMs and players. I do lots of conversions!
My best brews: Berserker (Fire Emblem - barbarian subclass) | Swordmaster (Fire Emblem - fighter subclass) | Deserter (background) | Flame Atronach (Skyrim - monster)
My Fire Emblem Conversion Thread
General homebrew links
Spells | Monsters | Magic Items | Backgrounds | Feats | Races | Subclasses
Which is a reasonable ruling, and pretty close to the ruling I would make myself, but it does slightly weaken sorcerers as they can no longer create 4th and 5th level spell slots before level 7 and 9 respectively.
a more reasonable ruling would simply be to prevent sorcery points from being gained by converting warlock spell slots. That way the only way you can start to accumulate spell slots over time via repeated short rests is if you are 20th level, and by then you are SUPPOSED to be powerful, many do consider the sorcerer capstone to be one of the weaker ones in the game, this trick will just ease that issue in that case. There is a reason why i did not mention coffelocks in the original post, they are an exploit, there is no need to significantly nerf the sorcerer to fix an unintended combination. Or you can separate the sorcery points gained from warlock spell slots from your normal sorcery points and say that those gained from warlock slots dissapear after one or two short rests (with the caveat that you have to spend your normal sorcery points first and your "sorclock points" only once the normal ones run out)
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
For those supporting warlock multi-class (coffeelock build) Jeremy has weighed in saying that one way to look at it is the spell slots from pact magic are separate from Spell casting spell slots and the only cross use would be casting spells. https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1029177242985742337?lang=en
as for sorcerer only build: a Devine soul sorcerer should be able to get Greater restoration and has an ability that can prevent the failed exhaustion save as well.
there is also this statement, https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/05/12/covert-warlock-spell-slots-to-sorcery-points/ but i guess you can change your mind after 3 years, was looking for that specific quote but i could not find it, again if you are using the (more recent) crawford interpreteation of the rules this exploit should not be too powerful given the fact that you need to be 20th level to do it
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Thanks for looking that up. The old post was referenced in a subtweet. It just said Something about jc changing his mind but the connection was based on a deleted post (removed by the author) so I couldn't find it either. Still the new one seems to imply it's more RAI and that RAW is vague.
Quick note on coffeelock: Aspect of the Moon does not let you stop taking long rests, it lets you be more active during your long rests. Like how OP was using the Greater Restoration spell to solve the problem, to stop taking long rests entirely you either need a special rule letting you (I don't know of any) or a way to deal with the exhaustion problem (such as casting Greater Restoration).
this section from Xanatar's guide to everything, the very same book Aspect of the moon is from says this
The first line from Aspect of the moon explicitly says that you no longer need to sleep, something that should logically mean that you never suffer from the effects of sleep deprivation and thus means you should not be subject to this rule that specifically emulates sleep deprivation (and the elvish equivalent for being deprived of a chance to enter trance). Yes technically speaking rules as written a warlock with Aspect of the moon who does not take a long rest would indeed still suffer from exhaustion, but that judgement clearly clashes with the intent of this rule, like this is the most clear example of RAW vs RAI i can think of
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
You could rule that way at your table - it would definitely upgrade Warforged, who lack the wording you're reacting to that their non-sleep provides the same benefits as sleep. I think it's deeply suspect ruling that Aspect of the Moon and Warforged work one way but Trance works another, in terms of exhaustion, but you do you. Here's the text of Aspect of the Moon you're choosing to ignore:
yes and? Your biology no longer requires sleep, so sleep is no longer an requirement for recharging various class features that rely on long rests. It has absolutely nothing to do with my statement that since your body no longer requires sleep, you can no longer become sleep deprived and thus gain no levels of exhaustion from sleep deprivation
its entirely reasonable to also state that elves are also immune to sleep deprivation also
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
It is entirely reasonable and logical to rule that creatures that don't need sleep don't suffer ill effects from going without long rests. It is also not the (optional) rule given in XGtE. According to the (optional) rule, creatures that go more than 24hrs without a long rest must save or suffer a level of exhaustion.
It's not about your biology in game, it's about the RAW.
PHB: A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, Fighting, casting Spells, or similar Adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
Using class features over the course of an hour clearly violates the rules as written, a short rest is specifically at least one hour long. Therefore if you want to Coffeelock, you're still exhausted, because you gain levels of exhaustion if you don't complete a long rest.
Which is an optional rule from XGtE, an odd rule that causes exhaustion for going without a long rest because going without sleep has consequences.
If the rule had been worded to give exhaustion for going for extended periods without taking a break instead of for going without sleep it would make a lot more sense, but RAW it does in fact give exhaustion for going without a long rest, whether you need it or not.