I'm trying to make a build that focus' on the hexblade for melee / ranged combat, but also delves into the shadow origin sorcerer as he unlocks more of his hidden potential and learns why his diety chose to accept him as a warlock. But, I don't want to squish like sorcerers tend to and I'd prefer to have my melee and spell damage comparable, instead of my magic damage leaving melee as a weak option in the long run.
I've heard about the paladin / sorcerer smiting builds but thematically speaking the warlock fits better, and since Paladins in 5e don't actually get their powers from dieties (but from themselves?) I found it hard to piece it all together.
Any tips or suggestions? I haven't had any experience leveling theses classes but the idea really stuck with me and I want to make it work.
Shadow blade would use either use your strength or dexterity as you wouldn't have the hour to bond with it via hexblade. Also Shadow blade and darkness are both concentration spells, even if you cast it with sorcery points.
Shoot, didn't notice shadow blade was concentration.
Should still work with Hex Warrior feature. Not as efficient as i though. poop.
Well maxing Dex still shouldn't be too much of a problem. Take draconic heritage to take advantage of the free 13+dex AC. Max Charisma and grab a shield and a rapier. Use Hex warrior on the rapier if shadow blade wont work. Haste, darkness, Hold w/e, Greater invisibility, Hex. still a lot more access to a lot more goodies IMO. Its basically a Sorlock build using booming blade+Hex Warrior instead of Eldritch bolt.
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Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 12 (8W-4L)- - Coliseum of Conquest: Master of Faerie Fire. Just don't ask her to spell it.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 6 (2W-1L)- - Coliseum Reborn : Master of a Myriad of forms.
Runt, the Stormchosen: Half-Orc barbarian level 5 -- The Guild
Min-Maxing aside, solely based on what you are describing you will probably want at least 5 levels of hexblade warlock, for pact of the blade and thirsting blade, which gets you 2 attacks per action. Now you need to decide if there is anything else that you need from the warlock, but going 15 levels of sorcerer will unlock your 8th level spells.
Should still work with Hex Warrior feature. Not as efficient as i though. poop.
As Hex Warrior specifies that you have to use it after you finish a long rest I understand that this would only work if you also cast Shadow Blade right after said long rest. Then you would benefit from Hex Warrior until the duration of the spell expires. And then it is Dex or Str for further castings. Apart from that a Hexblade is not able to use any of its Invocations like Thirsting Blade or Lifedrinker with the Shadow Blade. So the spell sounds cool and fitting for a Hexblade but is really a Pala/Sorcerer-spell.
Yea, after further research i agree. the rest of my build would work well enough though. IDK if that is what OP wants but it can work with a normal weapon. And then you can run devils sight/ darkness combo. Or holding all the things. For levels though, personalty i like 18/2 for more sorcery points. i could drop to 17/3 because i like having a 9th lvl spell slot. If you quicken booming blade or green-flame blade you wouldn't need the invocation because you would be getting 2 attacks with the spells. and if there are multiple targets i believe you could quicken and twin for even more booms.
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Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 12 (8W-4L)- - Coliseum of Conquest: Master of Faerie Fire. Just don't ask her to spell it.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 6 (2W-1L)- - Coliseum Reborn : Master of a Myriad of forms.
Runt, the Stormchosen: Half-Orc barbarian level 5 -- The Guild
I'm not sure really what spells Sorcerers get later on, but with that many levels I assume the spells they'd be getting would be better off using the twinning or quickening boons from metamagic. Adding another target to a high level spell seems a better use of the points. Again I'm not sure what exactly they'd get, but if they're anything like wizards I can only assume they'd still be at their best staying back and dropping bombs.
I'm not sure really what spells Sorcerers get later on, but with that many levels I assume the spells they'd be getting would be better off using the twinning or quickening boons from metamagic. Adding another target to a high level spell seems a better use of the points. Again I'm not sure what exactly they'd get, but if they're anything like wizards I can only assume they'd still be at their best staying back and dropping bombs.
It really depends.Do you want to be a spell slinger who can do some fightering or a fighter who does some spell slinging?
Sorcerer only gets 15 spell not including cantrips. I like using them to supplement rather that be the focus. With sorcerer you really have to plan ahead imo. Look at what spells would compliment your play-style. I view Sorcerer as a natural specialist rather than a large back or tricks. the warlock is even more so. With that viewpoint we are mixing two specialists.
You could do a 5 level dip to get the 2nd attack invocation. Picking up shield from sorcerer for more reliable defense. Hex-blade lets you run with a shield so you could easily get up your AC. i personalty start with sorcerer for that con save. I would still quicken booming blade even if you dipped far enough to get the extra char dmg. assuming max level cantrip (1d8+10)2 is not as good (1d8+3d8+5or10)2+4d8. That way your melee can keep up with your spells for pure damage.
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Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 12 (8W-4L)- - Coliseum of Conquest: Master of Faerie Fire. Just don't ask her to spell it.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 6 (2W-1L)- - Coliseum Reborn : Master of a Myriad of forms.
Runt, the Stormchosen: Half-Orc barbarian level 5 -- The Guild
It works in early game but by 9th level spells you're wasting potential by not being a full on caster, it looks like. Trimming their potential spell damage to buff mediocre melee damage doesn't look as viable now that I'm looking at their spells. Maybe I'm wrong since I haven't really played around with it, but it's starting to look as though Hexblade can't keep up with spells or melee compared to other classes. Paladin, fighter and rogue all beat it in melee... By level 7 an arcane trickster rogue can use shadow blade plus sneak attack effectively.
It works in early game but by 9th level spells you're wasting potential by not being a full on caster, it looks like. Trimming their potential spell damage to buff mediocre melee damage doesn't look as viable now that I'm looking at their spells. Maybe I'm wrong since I haven't really played around with it, but it's starting to look as though Hexblade can't keep up with spells or melee compared to other classes. Paladin, fighter and rogue all beat it in melee... By level 7 an arcane trickster rogue can use shadow blade plus sneak attack effectively.
So, a Hexblade warlock is a full caster that isn't as good at martial combat as a paladin (half caster) or fighter or rogue (non-casters)?
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Well Paladin Fighter and Barbarian are warrior classes. There damage is hard to beat. But damage is only 1 aspect of the game. I've had to work past this myself as i'm a long time MMO player. Min-maxing for damage in DnD inst always the best or most fun. Sure you can build a broken OP nova damage spammer. but what are you going to do when the game shifts to exploration or conversation? I build an idea of a character in my head first and then find mechanics that make it work. It doesn't always as i found out with my shadow blade idea.
I feel like we got off topic. I don't think there is a definitive answer to how many levels you "need" in one class or the other. Is your character more focused on the patron aspect or the natural inclination to the arcane ? That i think might determine how far into each you want to go. For more stabbing w/o burning meta magic its 5 levels in lock for 2 attacks with the pact weapon. 12 levels in to get the extra charisma damage on hit. with XgtE you can burn spell slots to smite kind of like the paladin/sorcerer. and you can have it as a ranged weapon so ranged smites.
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Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 12 (8W-4L)- - Coliseum of Conquest: Master of Faerie Fire. Just don't ask her to spell it.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 6 (2W-1L)- - Coliseum Reborn : Master of a Myriad of forms.
Runt, the Stormchosen: Half-Orc barbarian level 5 -- The Guild
Hexblades and are not full casters. That's like saying Arcane tricksters aren't casters. In both of these cases the subclass determines what the character is capable of doing far more so than the parent class. Access to all martial weapons, medium armor, and use of the primary attribute for melee, which in my mind puts them right beside arcane tricksters and paladins as far as melee goes. Both of these also use secondary stats to cast spells instead whereas the Hexblade can use Charisma, but it seems the hexblade still falls short in terms of viability. Not to say it can't work (I want it to), but other option seem to do the same niche better, albeit starting at a mid level.
1) I don't think 5 levels for Improve Pact Blade is worth it. With Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade you're not going to be utilizing the Extra Attack. 11th lvl the damaging Cantrips are going to be doing more damage then 2 single attacks. Life Drinker does help as it adds your CHA in damage to each, but it also uses up 2 invocations to equal not using them. The is especially true if you're going Dragon Sorcerer (fire) and using Green Flame Blade, because then you'll be adding your Cha mod to one of the fire damages.
2) If your in Darkness with Devil's Sight, then the enemy can't see you. If they can't see you then they don't get AoO, so you don't need Mobile to move away from melee after attacking.
3) We all know about the Darkness & Devil's Sight, but honestly that trick is almost never used. You play the game in the party and everyone else is going to think it's *super* lame if you spend every combat soloing encounters while they listen to the sounds of combat. The exception is if you're tanking something while the party is taking on something else, like they fight the boss while you hold off reinforcements or visa-vi. I've used to to cover the party while we heal up (Celestial Warlock so I could heal them) and block enemy archers from having LOS to the party as we moved up.
I think the Sorcerer heavy isn't terrible, if at higher levels you're using it to multi-cast cantrips. Since you could be dealing out 2 Green Flame Blade cantrips a turn until you exhaust your sorcery points. That could be some *significant* damage come level 8 (Dragon Sorcerer: fire 6/Hex-Warlock 2)
Thanks FullMetalBunny. I'm obviously not great at organizing my thoughts. That's more or less what i was trying to convey. Throw in some control spells once in a while and you will be a beast.
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Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 12 (8W-4L)- - Coliseum of Conquest: Master of Faerie Fire. Just don't ask her to spell it.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 6 (2W-1L)- - Coliseum Reborn : Master of a Myriad of forms.
Runt, the Stormchosen: Half-Orc barbarian level 5 -- The Guild
How does the Eldritch Knight fair comparatively? Considering Full Hexblade and Full EK?
i think the fighter wins over all but there is a decent bit of math since there are a few variables. EK has 4 attacks and can action surge do 4 more attacks or cast a spell since from the other attacks there is a disadvantage against its save DC. HB bladelock will have 2 attacks 3 if PAM w/bonus action. each getting Hex spell damage. extra damage from invocation and hexblade curse.
Im bad at math but im coming up with a PAM fighter doing 67.5 average with just 4 attacks and a HB bladelock with PAM and curse active doing 61.5 average. both can still boost to higher numbers.
I'm doing some quick comparisons at 7th level to see the difference between the two. This allows for both classes to have 20 in their primary stat as well as warcaster. Assuming a sword and board build.
Hexblade: With hexblade's curse and hex on a target, you'll deal 19-38 damage using thirsting blade (12-40 using booming blade instead).
EK: considering they can cantrip and then attack with shadow blade (with concentration) we're looking at 21-70 using booming blade then a melee attack.
I'm trying to make a build that focus' on the hexblade for melee / ranged combat, but also delves into the shadow origin sorcerer as he unlocks more of his hidden potential and learns why his diety chose to accept him as a warlock. But, I don't want to squish like sorcerers tend to and I'd prefer to have my melee and spell damage comparable, instead of my magic damage leaving melee as a weak option in the long run.
I've heard about the paladin / sorcerer smiting builds but thematically speaking the warlock fits better, and since Paladins in 5e don't actually get their powers from dieties (but from themselves?) I found it hard to piece it all together.
Any tips or suggestions? I haven't had any experience leveling theses classes but the idea really stuck with me and I want to make it work.
My idea was to do 18 sorc/ 2 heckblade. quick cast booming blade with my shadow blade weapon with the mobile feat running around causing all the hurt.
Taking devils sight invocation and darkness spell so they cant see me as i dance around laughing at all the sonic booms i hitting them with.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 12 (8W-4L)- - Coliseum of Conquest: Master of Faerie Fire. Just don't ask her to spell it.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 6 (2W-1L)- - Coliseum Reborn : Master of a Myriad of forms.
Runt, the Stormchosen: Half-Orc barbarian level 5 -- The Guild
Tomoe Gozen: Human Fighter Samurai level 5 -- Cronero (Solo Campaign)
Shadow blade would use either use your strength or dexterity as you wouldn't have the hour to bond with it via hexblade. Also Shadow blade and darkness are both concentration spells, even if you cast it with sorcery points.
Shoot, didn't notice shadow blade was concentration.
Should still work with Hex Warrior feature. Not as efficient as i though. poop.
Well maxing Dex still shouldn't be too much of a problem. Take draconic heritage to take advantage of the free 13+dex AC. Max Charisma and grab a shield and a rapier. Use Hex warrior on the rapier if shadow blade wont work. Haste, darkness, Hold w/e, Greater invisibility, Hex. still a lot more access to a lot more goodies IMO. Its basically a Sorlock build using booming blade+Hex Warrior instead of Eldritch bolt.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 12 (8W-4L)- - Coliseum of Conquest: Master of Faerie Fire. Just don't ask her to spell it.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 6 (2W-1L)- - Coliseum Reborn : Master of a Myriad of forms.
Runt, the Stormchosen: Half-Orc barbarian level 5 -- The Guild
Tomoe Gozen: Human Fighter Samurai level 5 -- Cronero (Solo Campaign)
Min-Maxing aside, solely based on what you are describing you will probably want at least 5 levels of hexblade warlock, for pact of the blade and thirsting blade, which gets you 2 attacks per action. Now you need to decide if there is anything else that you need from the warlock, but going 15 levels of sorcerer will unlock your 8th level spells.
Yea, after further research i agree. the rest of my build would work well enough though. IDK if that is what OP wants but it can work with a normal weapon. And then you can run devils sight/ darkness combo. Or holding all the things. For levels though, personalty i like 18/2 for more sorcery points. i could drop to 17/3 because i like having a 9th lvl spell slot. If you quicken booming blade or green-flame blade you wouldn't need the invocation because you would be getting 2 attacks with the spells. and if there are multiple targets i believe you could quicken and twin for even more booms.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 12 (8W-4L)- - Coliseum of Conquest: Master of Faerie Fire. Just don't ask her to spell it.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 6 (2W-1L)- - Coliseum Reborn : Master of a Myriad of forms.
Runt, the Stormchosen: Half-Orc barbarian level 5 -- The Guild
Tomoe Gozen: Human Fighter Samurai level 5 -- Cronero (Solo Campaign)
I'm not sure really what spells Sorcerers get later on, but with that many levels I assume the spells they'd be getting would be better off using the twinning or quickening boons from metamagic. Adding another target to a high level spell seems a better use of the points. Again I'm not sure what exactly they'd get, but if they're anything like wizards I can only assume they'd still be at their best staying back and dropping bombs.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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It really depends.Do you want to be a spell slinger who can do some fightering or a fighter who does some spell slinging?
Sorcerer only gets 15 spell not including cantrips. I like using them to supplement rather that be the focus. With sorcerer you really have to plan ahead imo. Look at what spells would compliment your play-style. I view Sorcerer as a natural specialist rather than a large back or tricks. the warlock is even more so. With that viewpoint we are mixing two specialists.
You could do a 5 level dip to get the 2nd attack invocation. Picking up shield from sorcerer for more reliable defense. Hex-blade lets you run with a shield so you could easily get up your AC. i personalty start with sorcerer for that con save. I would still quicken booming blade even if you dipped far enough to get the extra char dmg. assuming max level cantrip (1d8+10)2 is not as good (1d8+3d8+5or10)2+4d8. That way your melee can keep up with your spells for pure damage.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 12 (8W-4L)- - Coliseum of Conquest: Master of Faerie Fire. Just don't ask her to spell it.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 6 (2W-1L)- - Coliseum Reborn : Master of a Myriad of forms.
Runt, the Stormchosen: Half-Orc barbarian level 5 -- The Guild
Tomoe Gozen: Human Fighter Samurai level 5 -- Cronero (Solo Campaign)
It works in early game but by 9th level spells you're wasting potential by not being a full on caster, it looks like. Trimming their potential spell damage to buff mediocre melee damage doesn't look as viable now that I'm looking at their spells. Maybe I'm wrong since I haven't really played around with it, but it's starting to look as though Hexblade can't keep up with spells or melee compared to other classes. Paladin, fighter and rogue all beat it in melee... By level 7 an arcane trickster rogue can use shadow blade plus sneak attack effectively.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Well Paladin Fighter and Barbarian are warrior classes. There damage is hard to beat. But damage is only 1 aspect of the game. I've had to work past this myself as i'm a long time MMO player. Min-maxing for damage in DnD inst always the best or most fun. Sure you can build a broken OP nova damage spammer. but what are you going to do when the game shifts to exploration or conversation? I build an idea of a character in my head first and then find mechanics that make it work. It doesn't always as i found out with my shadow blade idea.
I feel like we got off topic. I don't think there is a definitive answer to how many levels you "need" in one class or the other. Is your character more focused on the patron aspect or the natural inclination to the arcane ? That i think might determine how far into each you want to go. For more stabbing w/o burning meta magic its 5 levels in lock for 2 attacks with the pact weapon. 12 levels in to get the extra charisma damage on hit. with XgtE you can burn spell slots to smite kind of like the paladin/sorcerer. and you can have it as a ranged weapon so ranged smites.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 12 (8W-4L)- - Coliseum of Conquest: Master of Faerie Fire. Just don't ask her to spell it.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 6 (2W-1L)- - Coliseum Reborn : Master of a Myriad of forms.
Runt, the Stormchosen: Half-Orc barbarian level 5 -- The Guild
Tomoe Gozen: Human Fighter Samurai level 5 -- Cronero (Solo Campaign)
Hexblades and are not full casters. That's like saying Arcane tricksters aren't casters. In both of these cases the subclass determines what the character is capable of doing far more so than the parent class. Access to all martial weapons, medium armor, and use of the primary attribute for melee, which in my mind puts them right beside arcane tricksters and paladins as far as melee goes. Both of these also use secondary stats to cast spells instead whereas the Hexblade can use Charisma, but it seems the hexblade still falls short in terms of viability. Not to say it can't work (I want it to), but other option seem to do the same niche better, albeit starting at a mid level.
I'm trying to find a way to fix that.
a couple of things.
1) I don't think 5 levels for Improve Pact Blade is worth it.
With Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade you're not going to be utilizing the Extra Attack. 11th lvl the damaging Cantrips are going to be doing more damage then 2 single attacks. Life Drinker does help as it adds your CHA in damage to each, but it also uses up 2 invocations to equal not using them. The is especially true if you're going Dragon Sorcerer (fire) and using Green Flame Blade, because then you'll be adding your Cha mod to one of the fire damages.
2) If your in Darkness with Devil's Sight, then the enemy can't see you. If they can't see you then they don't get AoO, so you don't need Mobile to move away from melee after attacking.
3) We all know about the Darkness & Devil's Sight, but honestly that trick is almost never used. You play the game in the party and everyone else is going to think it's *super* lame if you spend every combat soloing encounters while they listen to the sounds of combat. The exception is if you're tanking something while the party is taking on something else, like they fight the boss while you hold off reinforcements or visa-vi. I've used to to cover the party while we heal up (Celestial Warlock so I could heal them) and block enemy archers from having LOS to the party as we moved up.
I think the Sorcerer heavy isn't terrible, if at higher levels you're using it to multi-cast cantrips. Since you could be dealing out 2 Green Flame Blade cantrips a turn until you exhaust your sorcery points. That could be some *significant* damage come level 8 (Dragon Sorcerer: fire 6/Hex-Warlock 2)
How does the Eldritch Knight fair comparatively? Considering Full Hexblade and Full EK?
Thanks FullMetalBunny. I'm obviously not great at organizing my thoughts. That's more or less what i was trying to convey. Throw in some control spells once in a while and you will be a beast.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 12 (8W-4L)- - Coliseum of Conquest: Master of Faerie Fire. Just don't ask her to spell it.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 6 (2W-1L)- - Coliseum Reborn : Master of a Myriad of forms.
Runt, the Stormchosen: Half-Orc barbarian level 5 -- The Guild
Tomoe Gozen: Human Fighter Samurai level 5 -- Cronero (Solo Campaign)
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 12 (8W-4L)- - Coliseum of Conquest: Master of Faerie Fire. Just don't ask her to spell it.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 6 (2W-1L)- - Coliseum Reborn : Master of a Myriad of forms.
Runt, the Stormchosen: Half-Orc barbarian level 5 -- The Guild
Tomoe Gozen: Human Fighter Samurai level 5 -- Cronero (Solo Campaign)
I'm doing some quick comparisons at 7th level to see the difference between the two. This allows for both classes to have 20 in their primary stat as well as warcaster. Assuming a sword and board build.
Hexblade: With hexblade's curse and hex on a target, you'll deal 19-38 damage using thirsting blade (12-40 using booming blade instead).
EK: considering they can cantrip and then attack with shadow blade (with concentration) we're looking at 21-70 using booming blade then a melee attack.
for EK, a trick i like is to greater invisibility but your looking at lower levels so i don't think it would count.
i hope i'm helping and not just muddling down the conversation.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 12 (8W-4L)- - Coliseum of Conquest: Master of Faerie Fire. Just don't ask her to spell it.
Grianne Wildpaw: Wood Elf Druid level 6 (2W-1L)- - Coliseum Reborn : Master of a Myriad of forms.
Runt, the Stormchosen: Half-Orc barbarian level 5 -- The Guild
Tomoe Gozen: Human Fighter Samurai level 5 -- Cronero (Solo Campaign)