Warlock Chain Poison Harvesting

Nowhere in there does it explicitly say that you cannot extract poison from a creature that is still alive, this is a familiar we're talking about, one you can communicate with. It would be just like a biologist harvesting venom from a snake. Especially if you communicate with the familiar and ensure it is okay with the practice, and ensure that it is done in a safe sustainable manner. 

:3

A character can attempt to harvest poison from a venomous creature that is dead or has the Incapacitated condition. 

It does not allow you to coax poison from your familiar.  RAW it has to be dead or incapacitated.  As noted elsewhere this means you can harvest from your familiar and then dismiss it and resummon to get a new one.  That comes with some GP cost and you do save money, but it is not free.  The only way I see to do it mechanically is Feign Death.  If someone has a better way to get 6 minutes of incapacitated on your familiar I am all ears.

Quote from Elfdope >>

If someone has a better way to get 6 minutes of incapacitated on your familiar I am all ears.

 I feel like just commanding it to go to sleep is a pretty straightforward way to do this.

Commanding it to sleep.  Interesting approach.  I had forgotten Unconscious got you to incapacitated.  Will still require some DM approval, but it would seem fine to me.

Quote from Elfdope >>

Will still require some DM approval, but it would seem fine to me.

I feel like if you can get your DM to agree to all this poison-harvesting stuff at all, getting them to allow you to tell your familiar to take a nap is probably a much easier sell.

• It Is Willingly Coordinated: The "dead or incapacitated" clause exists because a wild, dangerous monster will bite your face off if you try to squeeze its venom glands. Your pseudodragon familiar is a magically summoned spirit completely loyal to you. It wants to cooperate.
• "Milking" vs. "Harvesting": In the real world, you don't kill a snake to get its venom; you gently milk it into a jar. Because your familiar complies, the "incapacitated" requirement is narratively bypassed because it is voluntarily holding still.
• It’s Not a Real Pseudodragon: Per the Find Familiar spell, your companion is actually a Celestial, Fey, or Fiendish spirit taking the form of a pseudodragon. If it "dies," you don't get a corpse—it vanishes into mist and you just spend 10 gold pieces to resummon it perfectly intact. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

1. Lower the DC for Willing Targets: Suggest that because the pseudodragon is completely willing and sitting perfectly still, the harvesting check drops from a DC 20 down to a DC 12 or 15.
2. Enforce Tool Proficiency: Require a Poisoner's Kit check rather than standard Nature. This represents the chemical know-how needed to stabilize the venom so it doesn't evaporate or go inert immediately.
3. Implement a Cooldown (The "Gland" Limit): Limit the harvesting to once per Long Rest. A pseudodragon's body can only produce so much venom naturally. Resummoning the familiar shouldn't reset this, as it's the same spirit tethered to your magic.
4. Risk of Failure: If you fail the tool check by 5 or more, the familiar accidently pricks you, forcing you to make the saving throw against its poison. [1, 2, 4, 5]

It's also worth noting that as a Warlock, you're not always (and even rarely, canonically) supposed to be Good-aligned, and it most cases, it's fair to assume that your familiar may not be willing to accept your commands, only complying because the Pact of the Chain binds them into obedience...

Eh, I wouldn’t say that “canon” has much of a position on alignment, particularly in 5e. Obviously a few skew one way or another, but there’s no baked in trend to the class as a whole.

There are so many conflicting rules at play here (Are familiar's the actual creatures with real venom or just spiritual constructs with pretend venom? Can they voluntarily be incapacitated? Does the venom disappear when they do? Etc, etc) that you are squarely in the realm of homebrew.

That being said, I think there is definitely a balanced way to make this a fun interaction of abilities without it being overwhelming. For my money, I agree with those who point out an individual familiar can only be harvested once after which you will need to pay the gold cost to reform the body even if the familiar doesn't die. This makes a hard dollar cost so its not just an endless supply of free poison but you are still benefiting from the investment of 2 invocations into the process by it being cheaper than other poisons. I would keep the DC 20 harvesting check so the rules stays uniform for everyone but I would grant advantage if the Warlock themselves are doing the harvesting because of the relationship to the creature. And personally, I would keep it at the Warlock DC- this poison doesn't deal damage and considering the number of creatures that are immune to poison or incapacitated, you are mostly only going to be using this against chaff/minion level monsters. Poison could honestly use the bump in utility. 

I can see a few things are still being conflated.

1: the relationship between, you, your familiar and your patron. You, your familiar nor your patron, are as tightly confined by alignment than previous iterations of the game. As well what who or what your Parton is.

2: the incapacitated condition, if you look on your character sheet within D&D beyond the effects of being incapacitated are simply, you cannot take an action, bonus action or reaction. You cannot concentrate. And you cannot speak.

 3: standard harvesting rules apply to wild creatures not familiars. 

 4: whether or not the poison would disappear, if your familiar poisons enemy in combat and dies afterwards, the effects do not disappear simply because the familiar died. The effects would persist. 

 5: the idea that this is some infinite source of resources, if I wanted infinite gold I would simply get plant growth and fabricate spells and it would be much more effective than this.

3. The standard harvesting rules apply to all creatures.  That includes familiars.  If you wish to work with your DM on creating different rules for familiars that is fine, but the rules are general. Refer to the definition of creature from the glossary "Creature: Any being in the game, including a player’s character, is a creature."  Yes this means you can polymorph a PC into a venomous creature, cast feign death on them and harvest poison from them.   But only once.

4. Exactly right.  We can surmise that the poison doesn't disappear because the effects certainly don't just because the famliar is destroyed.

I agree that one should be able harvest from a familiar easier than a wild creature, but the other limitations make sense (only once per creature, DC20 Nature w/ Poisoner's kit, 1-6 minutes, etc.).  

Quote from Elfdope >>

3. The standard harvesting rules apply to all creatures.  That includes familiars.  If you wish to work with your DM on creating different rules for familiars that is fine, but the rules are general. Refer to the definition of creature from the glossary "Creature: Any being in the game, including a player’s character, is a creature."  Yes this means you can polymorph a PC into a venomous creature, cast feign death on them and harvest poison from them.   But only once.

 

 

Just because a dragon uses its breath attack does not mean that it doesn't recharge. I would believe having a cool down (a gland recharge rate) would have a greater effect on restricting how much you can harvested at once than simply dispelling your summon spending 10 gold and summoning again.

In fact if we're going to even go that far, your familiar can poison targets again and again round after round turn after turn 😐 we're literally grasping at straws at this point.

I would also like to point out that the warlock has spent two eldrich invocations to get to this point, and it's not even as cool as green flame blade 🤷

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Eh, I wouldn’t say that “canon” has much of a position on alignment, particularly in 5e. Obviously a few skew one way or another, but there’s no baked in trend to the class as a whole.

 From the PHB:

Warlocks quest for knowledge that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse. They often begin their search for magical power by delving into tomes of forbidden lore, dabbling in invocations meant to attract the power of extraplanar beings, or seeking places of power where the influence of these beings can be felt. In no time, each Warlock is drawn into a binding pact with a powerful patron. Drawing on the ancient knowledge of beings such as angels, archfey, demons, devils, hags, and alien entities of the Far Realm, Warlocks piece together arcane secrets to bolster their own power.

Warlocks view their patrons as resources, as means to the end of achieving magical power. Some Warlocks respect, revere, or even love their patrons; some serve their patrons grudgingly; and some seek to undermine their patrons even as they wield the power their patrons have given them.

Once a pact is made, a Warlock’s thirst for knowledge and power can’t be slaked with mere study. Most Warlocks spend their days pursuing greater power and deeper knowledge, which typically means some kind of adventure.

So the main trait of a Warlock is that they're power-hungry... I'm not saying you have to be neutral or evil, but this premise doesn't really set you up for a goody two-shoes...

Quote from Natrel >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Eh, I wouldn’t say that “canon” has much of a position on alignment, particularly in 5e. Obviously a few skew one way or another, but there’s no baked in trend to the class as a whole.

 From the PHB:

Warlocks quest for knowledge that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse. They often begin their search for magical power by delving into tomes of forbidden lore, dabbling in invocations meant to attract the power of extraplanar beings, or seeking places of power where the influence of these beings can be felt. In no time, each Warlock is drawn into a binding pact with a powerful patron. Drawing on the ancient knowledge of beings such as angels, archfey, demons, devils, hags, and alien entities of the Far Realm, Warlocks piece together arcane secrets to bolster their own power.

Warlocks view their patrons as resources, as means to the end of achieving magical power. Some Warlocks respect, revere, or even love their patrons; some serve their patrons grudgingly; and some seek to undermine their patrons even as they wield the power their patrons have given them.

Once a pact is made, a Warlock’s thirst for knowledge and power can’t be slaked with mere study. Most Warlocks spend their days pursuing greater power and deeper knowledge, which typically means some kind of adventure.

So the main trait of a Warlock is that they're power-hungry... I'm not saying you have to be neutral or evil, but this premise doesn't really set you up for a goody two-shoes...

Definitely flavor preference. It is very ambiguous for a reason. And mind you that angels are mentioned 🤷

Quote from Greenie_Mcbaggin >>

Quote from Elfdope >>

3. The standard harvesting rules apply to all creatures.  That includes familiars.  If you wish to work with your DM on creating different rules for familiars that is fine, but the rules are general. Refer to the definition of creature from the glossary "Creature: Any being in the game, including a player’s character, is a creature."  Yes this means you can polymorph a PC into a venomous creature, cast feign death on them and harvest poison from them.   But only once.

 

 

 

Just because a dragon uses its breath attack does not mean that it doesn't recharge. I would believe having a cool down (a gland recharge rate) would have a greater effect on restricting how much you can harvested at once than simply dispelling your summon spending 10 gold and summoning again.

 

In fact if we're going to even go that far, your familiar can poison targets again and again round after round turn after turn 😐 we're literally grasping at straws at this point.

 

I would also like to point out that the warlock has spent two eldrich invocations to get to this point, and it's not even as cool as green flame blade 🤷

 Are you earnestly attempting to argue that potential on demand Incapacitated condition is less cool than a bit of extra fire damage from a cantrip? That's certainly a take. Please explain...

Quote from Jayne_of_Canton >>

Quote from Greenie_Mcbaggin >>

Quote from Elfdope >>

3. The standard harvesting rules apply to all creatures.  That includes familiars.  If you wish to work with your DM on creating different rules for familiars that is fine, but the rules are general. Refer to the definition of creature from the glossary "Creature: Any being in the game, including a player’s character, is a creature."  Yes this means you can polymorph a PC into a venomous creature, cast feign death on them and harvest poison from them.   But only once.

 

 

 

Just because a dragon uses its breath attack does not mean that it doesn't recharge. I would believe having a cool down (a gland recharge rate) would have a greater effect on restricting how much you can harvested at once than simply dispelling your summon spending 10 gold and summoning again.

 

In fact if we're going to even go that far, your familiar can poison targets again and again round after round turn after turn 😐 we're literally grasping at straws at this point.

 

I would also like to point out that the warlock has spent two eldrich invocations to get to this point, and it's not even as cool as green flame blade 🤷

 Are you earnestly attempting to argue that potential on demand Incapacitated condition is less cool than a bit of extra fire damage from a cantrip? That's certainly a take. Please explain...

  Are you underestimating green flame blade? You don't watch much D4 deep dive do you?