Sacred flame is a cantrip so you won’t waste any spell slots by using it, and you ordinarily wouldn’t have it unless you select it as a Tomelock or through a feat or multiclass.
I’m not saying that Eldritch blast is always the best option, just that it usually is, and that I regard big AoE spells like fireball as not efficient for a warlock, given their very, very limited spell slots. I prefer to save those valuable spell slots for spells with ongoing effects, like Sunbeam or Telekinesis, that you can use round after round from a single cast.
Although Hex is very strong at lower levels, IMO it becomes much less valuable as one levels up because it is a concentration spell. Eventually, you get very, very powerful concentration spells like Telekinesis and Sunbeam. Since your slots are all max level anyway, there's very little reason to cast Hex instead of one of those spells. You can cast Hex, then take a short rest and recover that spell slot while still maintaining concentration on Hex, for a sort of "half a slot" gain, but you'll still have to lose the Hex as soon as you cast one of those more powerful concentration spells.
so not exactly accurate information as this thread was addressing warlocks, who don't get telekinesis or sunbeam, or access to slots above 5th level.
list of 'high level' concentration spells for a warlock is basically hold monster and banishment. and a few once per day arcanum, which aren't really competing as you need something else when they're down.
I was thinking of my sorcerer when I wrote that and didn’t bother to check the warlock spell list so, yeah, warlocks don’t get those two spells. I still stand by the idea that Hex isn’t always that great once you get more powerful concentration spells, and that spells that can be upcast should generally be preferred to ones that cannot, because your spell slots are always max level anyway. Given those two points, I think Banishment is the best example. It’s a warlock spell, extremely powerful, capable of turning around a combat all on its own, benefits from being upcast, and it’s a concentration spell. Hex isn’t useless once you have Banishment, but there are plenty of situations in which using Banishment will be preferable to using Hex.
Although Hex is very strong at lower levels, IMO it becomes much less valuable as one levels up because it is a concentration spell. Eventually, you get very, very powerful concentration spells like Telekinesis and Sunbeam. Since your slots are all max level anyway, there's very little reason to cast Hex instead of one of those spells. You can cast Hex, then take a short rest and recover that spell slot while still maintaining concentration on Hex, for a sort of "half a slot" gain, but you'll still have to lose the Hex as soon as you cast one of those more powerful concentration spells.
so not exactly accurate information as this thread was addressing warlocks, who don't get telekinesis or sunbeam, or access to slots above 5th level.
list of 'high level' concentration spells for a warlock is basically hold monster and banishment. and a few once per day arcanum, which aren't really competing as you need something else when they're down.
I was thinking of my sorcerer when I wrote that and didn’t bother to check the warlock spell list so, yeah, warlocks don’t get those two spells. I still stand by the idea that Hex isn’t always that great once you get more powerful concentration spells, and that spells that can be upcast should generally be preferred to ones that cannot, because your spell slots are always max level anyway. Given those two points, I think Banishment is the best example. It’s a warlock spell, extremely powerful, capable of turning around a combat all on its own, benefits from being upcast, and it’s a concentration spell. Hex isn’t useless once you have Banishment, but there are plenty of situations in which using Banishment will be preferable to using Hex.
I prefer to use hex for the disadvantage it gives ability checks, rather than for the damage. The extra damage is underwhelming, but making it so the slippery rogue has trouble hiding or slipping out of his manacles or making it so the lumbering brute has difficulty breaking down a door or heck even making it so the shopowner is less likely to realize you're selling him a lemon of a magic item are pretty useful. And hex is a lot easier to cast on someone than bestow curse since there's no saving throw and you don't have to touch them. Helps make your warlock a bit more useful outside of pure combat.
That last example is something I've been wondering about. Do you all think that it's possible to cast Hex without someone knowing, before attempting to persuade/deceive/intimidate them? If you're already concentrating on Hex (having cast it earlier on something that dies), do you think it would be obvious when you move it to a new target outside of combat?
spells with ongoing effects, ........., that you can use round after round from a single cast.
I was thinking of my sorcerer when I wrote that and didn’t bother to check the warlock spell list so, yeah, warlocks don’t get those two spells. I still stand by the idea that Hex isn’t always that great once you get more powerful concentration spells, and that spells that can be upcast should generally be preferred to ones that cannot, because your spell slots are always max level anyway. Given those two points, I think Banishment is the best example. It’s a warlock spell, extremely powerful, capable of turning around a combat all on its own, benefits from being upcast, and it’s a concentration spell. Hex isn’t useless once you have Banishment, but there are plenty of situations in which using Banishment will be preferable to using Hex.
Literally the design criteria for why some spells are removed from the warlock spell list. Its not just those two spells that aren't on the warlock spell list, its any spell thats even remotely like that, and when you say max level slots you mean half level as they cap out at 5, very few ongoing effects or upscaling on the warlock spell list in general. Spells like that are designed for other casters to use with their high level slots with limitations on how many times a DAY they can do it, warlocks are designed around if they could do it every fight so almost every spell even remotely like what your talking about has been culled from the list. Design docs limit that kind of stuff as a daily invocation, or mystic arcanum. Your thinking like a sorcerer when Warlocks play closer to rangers. Hell not counting arcanum and cantrips, Rangers have a longer spell list. 45 spells is all they have access to for slots in official books, compared to 137 for your sorcerer. or 244 for wizard. So there's a long list of spells your thinking of that you'd rather have that in summary warlocks don't get.
Banishment isn't just the best example its practically the only spell that works like that warlocks can get. the entire list of scaleable concentration combat spells warlocks get is cloud of daggers, hex, witch bolt, vampiric touch, banishment, and hold person. 6.... 6 whole spells. Banishment barely qualifies as it scales from 1 target all the way up to 2 targets. take away the scalable criteria and you get hunger of hadar, suggestion, crown of madness, fear, ray of enfeeblement, hypnotic pattern and hold monster. So once you drop the situationally useful spells for crowd control or healing. your left with Hex and Witch Bolt. and witch bolt is pretty terrible, I don't see what they were going for with that thing.
So the only concentration spell that a warlock can rely on always being useful from a lowly goblin to an endgame boss or anywhere in between is Hex. nothing comes close to replacing it for a reliable any time concentration slot, at level one all the way to level 20. also your ignoring that Hex does scale, and in a way thats particularly valuable for warlocks as they can run the spell all day long and through a short rest making it effectively not cost a slot. you don't just use it round after round from a single cast, but for encounter after encounter from a single cast. which also means breaking the concentration to cast hold monster or banishment, isn't a big deal when the need arises since your not down a slot on hex anyway.
I’m not sure if anybody’s made this distinction yet, but it’s important to note that Hex only provides disadvantage on ability checks, not saving throws
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
When a fight breaks out, my imp familiar (PotC) takes out a candle and I cast Darkness on it. The imp hovers at about 7 ft in the air spreading a large spree of darkness. My Halfling moves side to side in the dark and uses EB to blast enemies. I have the Devil Sight invocation. I target whoever I want. No one can target me.
Eldritch Blast has you covered for damage, although the new spell Toll the Dead is very cool thematically and can still do decent damage. I like utility spells outside of that, or fun mind control/debuff spells. Charm Person, Suggestion, Hupnotic Pattern, etc.
For my Tome cantrips I went with Spare the Dying to help keep the party alive if needed, Shillelagh in case I end up in melee and want to have a chance of hitting something, and Vicious Mockery for really fun roleplay and enemy debuffs. Other great cantrips include Guidance, Shocking Grasp, Message... it all depends on what skills you want to have besides damage and what skills/spells your party has available.
Hex being good does not mean that there are times when other Concentration spells are better (like darkness with Devil's Sight).
I also think that Hex ist still very good at higher levels. It scales not only in duration but it adds a d6 damage to every hit (eg with EB). So up to 4d6 bonus damage in higher levels. Per Turn. For a whole day.
That was my thought as well beyond cool theme - damaging a target with high AC but poor Wisdom saves.
That was how I started with Sacred Flame pre Xanathars. There is a whole discussion here for warlocks on "Why wouldn't I use Eldritch Blast " For backup cases like:
Some of these DO require either multiclassing or being Pact of the Tome of course. Some may not fit mentally thematically (for which I think reskinning can help). But all options are optional.
I 100% agree that you need a backup spell, but in most situations, eldritch blast is super powerful for a warlock, and is only a cantrip, which is a bonus.
I want to also throw my support for hex. It scales with eldritch blast as pointed out before. The disadvantage applied to ability checks can really help in combat when used in conjunction with other spells like Maximilian’s Earthen Grasp, or used to hinder perception. Outside of combat it's a great RP tool.
I was just reading the Ravnica book again the other day, and I was going over the magic items, when I spotted the Illusion's Bracers. Despite the name, these bracers actually work with more than just illusions, but rather any cantrip. What happens is that, when you cast any cantrip, you can cast a second cantrip as a bonus action.
Yes, with these bracers, you can double cast Eldritch Blast. Move over sorlock.
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Sacred flame is a cantrip so you won’t waste any spell slots by using it, and you ordinarily wouldn’t have it unless you select it as a Tomelock or through a feat or multiclass.
I’m not saying that Eldritch blast is always the best option, just that it usually is, and that I regard big AoE spells like fireball as not efficient for a warlock, given their very, very limited spell slots. I prefer to save those valuable spell slots for spells with ongoing effects, like Sunbeam or Telekinesis, that you can use round after round from a single cast.
That last example is something I've been wondering about. Do you all think that it's possible to cast Hex without someone knowing, before attempting to persuade/deceive/intimidate them? If you're already concentrating on Hex (having cast it earlier on something that dies), do you think it would be obvious when you move it to a new target outside of combat?
Spells like that are designed for other casters to use with their high level slots with limitations on how many times a DAY they can do it, warlocks are designed around if they could do it every fight so almost every spell even remotely like what your talking about has been culled from the list. Design docs limit that kind of stuff as a daily invocation, or mystic arcanum.
Your thinking like a sorcerer when Warlocks play closer to rangers. Hell not counting arcanum and cantrips, Rangers have a longer spell list. 45 spells is all they have access to for slots in official books, compared to 137 for your sorcerer. or 244 for wizard. So there's a long list of spells your thinking of that you'd rather have that in summary warlocks don't get.
Banishment isn't just the best example its practically the only spell that works like that warlocks can get. the entire list of scaleable concentration combat spells warlocks get is cloud of daggers, hex, witch bolt, vampiric touch, banishment, and hold person. 6.... 6 whole spells. Banishment barely qualifies as it scales from 1 target all the way up to 2 targets. take away the scalable criteria and you get hunger of hadar, suggestion, crown of madness, fear, ray of enfeeblement, hypnotic pattern and hold monster. So once you drop the situationally useful spells for crowd control or healing. your left with Hex and Witch Bolt. and witch bolt is pretty terrible, I don't see what they were going for with that thing.
So the only concentration spell that a warlock can rely on always being useful from a lowly goblin to an endgame boss or anywhere in between is Hex. nothing comes close to replacing it for a reliable any time concentration slot, at level one all the way to level 20.
also your ignoring that Hex does scale, and in a way thats particularly valuable for warlocks as they can run the spell all day long and through a short rest making it effectively not cost a slot. you don't just use it round after round from a single cast, but for encounter after encounter from a single cast. which also means breaking the concentration to cast hold monster or banishment, isn't a big deal when the need arises since your not down a slot on hex anyway.
I’m not sure if anybody’s made this distinction yet, but it’s important to note that Hex only provides disadvantage on ability checks, not saving throws
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
I have a lot of fun with Darkness.
When a fight breaks out, my imp familiar (PotC) takes out a candle and I cast Darkness on it. The imp hovers at about 7 ft in the air spreading a large spree of darkness. My Halfling moves side to side in the dark and uses EB to blast enemies. I have the Devil Sight invocation. I target whoever I want. No one can target me.
Eldritch Blast has you covered for damage, although the new spell Toll the Dead is very cool thematically and can still do decent damage. I like utility spells outside of that, or fun mind control/debuff spells. Charm Person, Suggestion, Hupnotic Pattern, etc.
For my Tome cantrips I went with Spare the Dying to help keep the party alive if needed, Shillelagh in case I end up in melee and want to have a chance of hitting something, and Vicious Mockery for really fun roleplay and enemy debuffs. Other great cantrips include Guidance, Shocking Grasp, Message... it all depends on what skills you want to have besides damage and what skills/spells your party has available.
Is anyone else trying out Toll the Dead purely for theme? Like the book Sabriel?
Hex being good does not mean that there are times when other Concentration spells are better (like darkness with Devil's Sight).
I also think that Hex ist still very good at higher levels. It scales not only in duration but it adds a d6 damage to every hit (eg with EB). So up to 4d6 bonus damage in higher levels. Per Turn. For a whole day.
It works better as a Death cleric really. But it does have a couple of utility features as a back up option.
So using it on say a cleric or a druid isn't a great idea...but those fighters on the otherhand.
This applies to any of the cantrips with a save...but choose a backup option wisely as your mileage may vary.
That was my thought as well beyond cool theme - damaging a target with high AC but poor Wisdom saves.
Some of these DO require either multiclassing or being Pact of the Tome of course. Some may not fit mentally thematically (for which I think reskinning can help). But all options are optional.
Those are great options, I hadn’t thought of all of those. I like your style sir 🤓
Another one might be Mold Earth, creating a 5-foot pit to push/pull enemies into, even setting up for other area effects to happen on top of.
I 100% agree that you need a backup spell, but in most situations, eldritch blast is super powerful for a warlock, and is only a cantrip, which is a bonus.
Good backup spell that I always have prepared is called “Disengage then Run Away”
Oh, yeah, thats a great backup spell
I want to also throw my support for hex. It scales with eldritch blast as pointed out before. The disadvantage applied to ability checks can really help in combat when used in conjunction with other spells like Maximilian’s Earthen Grasp, or used to hinder perception. Outside of combat it's a great RP tool.
I was just reading the Ravnica book again the other day, and I was going over the magic items, when I spotted the Illusion's Bracers. Despite the name, these bracers actually work with more than just illusions, but rather any cantrip. What happens is that, when you cast any cantrip, you can cast a second cantrip as a bonus action.
Yes, with these bracers, you can double cast Eldritch Blast. Move over sorlock.