The Patron does not need to be a top-tier Fiend of any type. All that's required by the rules is that the Patron, at the time that the pact was made, be capable of bestowing the Warlock package of powers.
I assumed that the Patron must be a very high level & powerful entity to grant power to create a Warlock. But the above statement says they don't need to be high level.
If they don't need to be a super high level, what is the accepted minimum level of power needed to create a warlock . I have no clue as to what power is needed to create a warlock. Can a high level player (e.g. 19th level) create a Warlock? This is not just about finding Fiends but Feys and Cestials etc.
Having only the 2024 PHB what book do I need to find a "potential" list of candidates?
The power level needed is left intentionally vague. And there’s no exhaustive list of patrons. Probably because the answer would be very setting-dependent. And also because there’s no exhaustive list of fey, friends and celestials, etc. For example, maybe you want to use a solar for a celestial patron. There’s stats for a generic solar, but no details, like a name or the personal motivations one might have, which are the kind of thing that can make for an interesting patron. Each of the various subclasses gives a few generic examples, but that’s about all. So, again, we’re back to setting dependent. Some DMs love using a detailed patron as a plot device, others don’t want to be bothered, and just say, basically, “oh, you’re a warlock, cool.”
It up to the DM, I think the implication is outside extraordinary circumstances(the DM going wild) they are pretty top tier. Its not rando hag of CR3, its baba yaga, all the examples save celestial its elder gods, baba yaga, Asmodeous etc. With fiend it follows up with ; or a pit fiend, balor, yugoloth, or night hag that is especially mighty. Heck the opening of the warlock class says In no time, each Warlock is drawn into a binding pact with a powerful patron.
Now celestial includes things like unicorns. And the question is was the intent to show its weak beings as well. Perhaps, but I suspect it was more intended that its not a unicorn per the monster manual but some exceptional unicorn that either is its self much higher than CR5 or its more of a conduit for higher powers. So while the pact is with the unicorn they are not the ones giving you the power, they just had the authority to cut the deal. Because well look at their stats, there is nothing there indicating some kind of crazy power to make a warlock that will outpace them in power in 3 weeks. And if they are a conduit for a greater power which is very on brand for the divine, I would wonder are they really your patron, or just the face of a patron.
And your level 10 ability contact other plane would seem kind of out of place if you are more powerful than them and have more insight than them. If you patron is the big carp in your home town lake with the mind of a goldfish what are you contacting them for, hey what's the weather like in my home town, cool, nice to hear.
So yeah there is no hard rule about the Cr of the entity. But the general rule and theme is they are really powerful. But you are the one playing it and odds are the DM wants you to have fun so they will make exceptions here and there if it doesn't seem to make the game as a whole worse.
As for can a PC do it, maybe if the DM lets you but I'd say only if it was like the choice of your epic boon. No rules on it, I think it is generally seen as outside the scope of the characters but it could be a retirement scenario as a patron for the next batch of adventurers the party makes.
The power level needed is left intentionally vague. And there’s no exhaustive list of patrons. Probably because the answer would be very setting-dependent. And also because there’s no exhaustive list of fey, friends and celestials, etc. For example, maybe you want to use a solar for a celestial patron. There’s stats for a generic solar, but no details, like a name or the personal motivations one might have, which are the kind of thing that can make for an interesting patron. Each of the various subclasses gives a few generic examples, but that’s about all. So, again, we’re back to setting dependent. Some DMs love using a detailed patron as a plot device, others don’t want to be bothered, and just say, basically, “oh, you’re a warlock, cool.”
So, the ultimate answer is: Ask your DM.
Yeah, this was basically what I was saying in the original comment. As a personal preference, I consider the matter of exactly what the patron is, how much influence or power it has in the game setting, and how much influence it has over the character's actions to be matters of backstory and worldbuilding, to be worked out between the player and the DM, and not matters of balancing the Warlock class.
If a player wants to define their Warlock Patron as some archfiend laid low by the actions of a rival, cast down to the barest vestiges of his power, using the Pact and the actions of the Warloc k as his route back to his throne, that's fine.
If the Warlock Patron is some minor fiend, celestial or fey, who grows in power along with the Warlock, I'm fine with that.
If the Warlock Patron is some entity that the Warlock's grandfather summoned and bound to a pentagram in the basement of the ancestral manor and keeps under control through a combination of rituals and and coercion, cool.
If the Warlock's patron manifests as a tiny magical Girl Mascot Character represented by the Pact of the Chain Familiar, I have no problems with that.
If none of the above fit in your setting, or are the types of things you want to play, or allow as a DM, that's also fine.
My point was that yes, a Warlock's Patron can be some immensely powerful world-shaking entity that demands eternal obedience and/or souls for its power, but it doesn't have to be, and fictional examples where it isn't are plentiful.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
The Patron does not need to be a top-tier Fiend of any type. All that's required by the rules is that the Patron, at the time that the pact was made, be capable of bestowing the Warlock package of powers.
I assumed that the Patron must be a very high level & powerful entity to grant power to create a Warlock. But the above statement says they don't need to be high level.
If they don't need to be a super high level, what is the accepted minimum level of power needed to create a warlock . I have no clue as to what power is needed to create a warlock. Can a high level player (e.g. 19th level) create a Warlock? This is not just about finding Fiends but Feys and Cestials etc.
Having only the 2024 PHB what book do I need to find a "potential" list of candidates?
The power level needed is left intentionally vague. And there’s no exhaustive list of patrons. Probably because the answer would be very setting-dependent. And also because there’s no exhaustive list of fey, friends and celestials, etc. For example, maybe you want to use a solar for a celestial patron. There’s stats for a generic solar, but no details, like a name or the personal motivations one might have, which are the kind of thing that can make for an interesting patron. Each of the various subclasses gives a few generic examples, but that’s about all.
So, again, we’re back to setting dependent. Some DMs love using a detailed patron as a plot device, others don’t want to be bothered, and just say, basically, “oh, you’re a warlock, cool.”
So, the ultimate answer is: Ask your DM.
It up to the DM, I think the implication is outside extraordinary circumstances(the DM going wild) they are pretty top tier. Its not rando hag of CR3, its baba yaga, all the examples save celestial its elder gods, baba yaga, Asmodeous etc. With fiend it follows up with ; or a pit fiend, balor, yugoloth, or night hag that is especially mighty. Heck the opening of the warlock class says In no time, each Warlock is drawn into a binding pact with a powerful patron.
Now celestial includes things like unicorns. And the question is was the intent to show its weak beings as well. Perhaps, but I suspect it was more intended that its not a unicorn per the monster manual but some exceptional unicorn that either is its self much higher than CR5 or its more of a conduit for higher powers. So while the pact is with the unicorn they are not the ones giving you the power, they just had the authority to cut the deal. Because well look at their stats, there is nothing there indicating some kind of crazy power to make a warlock that will outpace them in power in 3 weeks. And if they are a conduit for a greater power which is very on brand for the divine, I would wonder are they really your patron, or just the face of a patron.
And your level 10 ability contact other plane would seem kind of out of place if you are more powerful than them and have more insight than them. If you patron is the big carp in your home town lake with the mind of a goldfish what are you contacting them for, hey what's the weather like in my home town, cool, nice to hear.
So yeah there is no hard rule about the Cr of the entity. But the general rule and theme is they are really powerful. But you are the one playing it and odds are the DM wants you to have fun so they will make exceptions here and there if it doesn't seem to make the game as a whole worse.
As for can a PC do it, maybe if the DM lets you but I'd say only if it was like the choice of your epic boon. No rules on it, I think it is generally seen as outside the scope of the characters but it could be a retirement scenario as a patron for the next batch of adventurers the party makes.
Yeah, this was basically what I was saying in the original comment. As a personal preference, I consider the matter of exactly what the patron is, how much influence or power it has in the game setting, and how much influence it has over the character's actions to be matters of backstory and worldbuilding, to be worked out between the player and the DM, and not matters of balancing the Warlock class.
If a player wants to define their Warlock Patron as some archfiend laid low by the actions of a rival, cast down to the barest vestiges of his power, using the Pact and the actions of the Warloc k as his route back to his throne, that's fine.
If the Warlock Patron is some minor fiend, celestial or fey, who grows in power along with the Warlock, I'm fine with that.
If the Warlock Patron is some entity that the Warlock's grandfather summoned and bound to a pentagram in the basement of the ancestral manor and keeps under control through a combination of rituals and and coercion, cool.
If the Warlock's patron manifests as a tiny magical Girl Mascot Character represented by the Pact of the Chain Familiar, I have no problems with that.
If none of the above fit in your setting, or are the types of things you want to play, or allow as a DM, that's also fine.
My point was that yes, a Warlock's Patron can be some immensely powerful world-shaking entity that demands eternal obedience and/or souls for its power, but it doesn't have to be, and fictional examples where it isn't are plentiful.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage