I was wondering if the idea works, A character who tricked an archdevil (and the person is 100% certain of it) into the bargain since they are very lawful to their contracts even though there is always a twist. I haven't really thought "how" but would it be interesting or just a flat excuse to not have a downside?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
I was wondering if the idea works, A character who tricked an archdevil (and the person is 100% certain of it) into the bargain since they are very lawful to their contracts even though there is always a twist. I haven't really thought "how" but would it be interesting or just a flat excuse to not have a downside?
I'd say having an archdevil angry at you would be considered a downside no matter what sort of bargain you tricked them into. Eventually they'll figure out how to get revenge. The same goes for any other patron powerful enough to bestow warlock powers on a PC.
I can see tricking a powerful being into becoming a warlock's patron ending up very, very bad for the warlock sooner or later. Sure, it will work, but powerful extra planar beings hate being forced to do anything and they will get their revenge. Summon Adventurer sounds like a great spell for an archdevil to create.....
I was wondering if the idea works, A character who tricked an archdevil (and the person is 100% certain of it) into the bargain since they are very lawful to their contracts even though there is always a twist. I haven't really thought "how" but would it be interesting or just a flat excuse to not have a downside?
I'd say having an archdevil angry at you would be considered a downside no matter what sort of bargain you tricked them into. Eventually they'll figure out how to get revenge. The same goes for any other patron powerful enough to bestow warlock powers on a PC.
I can see tricking a powerful being into becoming a warlock's patron ending up very, very bad for the warlock sooner or later. Sure, it will work, but powerful extra planar beings hate being forced to do anything and they will get their revenge. Summon Adventurer sounds like a great spell for an archdevil to create.....
Even if the character somehow made sure he's untouchable? even in the after life? Not immortal as in he cannot die but the Archdevil cannot do anything or turn anyone or anything against him? I was thinking of the ultimate deal of a life time? it's like he or she is the biggest mistake for Archdevil or in devils history. Sure they are angry but they are lawful to their deals. TLDR, almost like diplomatic immunity
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Archdevils are masters of twisting deals to suit them without breaking the letter of the deals. Teaching a wizard who is on the same plane as the warlock to cast Summon Adventurer with the warlock’s name as part of the spell so only he is summoned isn’t hurting the warlock directly. And that’s simple. Archdevils are more creative than that.
Archdevils are masters of twisting deals to suit them without breaking the letter of the deals. Teaching a wizard who is on the same plane as the warlock to cast Summon Adventurer with the warlock’s name as part of the spell so only he is summoned isn’t hurting the warlock directly. And that’s simple. Archdevils are more creative than that.
which is something i understand. that's why i was saying someone who outsmarted them somehow and i want to know if it sounds cheesy? if that's the correct word to say.
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Honestly, forcing a patron to do your bidding is kind of the opposite of the premise of the Warlock class. Your Patron probably knows your true name so can definitely cast Gate to bring you directly to them and just kill you outright. Also, the idea of a pact means that the pact giver can choose whether or not to remove the Warlock from their connection. If you want to try this idea, go for a Great Old One Patron and have them trapped in some object that you control or go Hexblade and make them trapped in the weapon itself. Make your character just somehow come across the item and have made the pact because they are in control of the item. This allows the Warlock to not worry about some great being in some distant plane angry at them. If the Patron is angry at them, they can't do much about it because the item automatically gives the Patron's power to the user without the will of the Patron. The Warlock doesn't even have to be that cunning and could make for some neet role play where the Patron tries to manipulate their Warlock to get out of their prison. It could lead to an entire other adventure based on either trying to control the Patron if they had some sway like in a Geas spell or going through with freeing them as if actually under a Geas spell without knowing. What you do about the relationships is up to you, but really the main way to create this idea is to have the Patron already trapped. You can do any of the other Patrons, but I suggest these two as their theme does not majorly impact large parts of lore as these individuals are already mysterious and adding a new powerful Fiend, Archfey, or Celestial can shake up the world story. Also, I did not include the Undying because I hate that archetype. Anyways, this should work for what you are thinking of.
Honestly, forcing a patron to do your bidding is kind of the opposite of the premise of the Warlock class. Your Patron probably knows your true name so can definitely cast Gate to bring you directly to them and just kill you outright. Also, the idea of a pact means that the pact giver can choose whether or not to remove the Warlock from their connection. If you want to try this idea, go for a Great Old One Patron and have them trapped in some object that you control or go Hexblade and make them trapped in the weapon itself. Make your character just somehow come across the item and have made the pact because they are in control of the item. This allows the Warlock to not worry about some great being in some distant plane angry at them. If the Patron is angry at them, they can't do much about it because the item automatically gives the Patron's power to the user without the will of the Patron. The Warlock doesn't even have to be that cunning and could make for some neet role play where the Patron tries to manipulate their Warlock to get out of their prison. It could lead to an entire other adventure based on either trying to control the Patron if they had some sway like in a Geas spell or going through with freeing them as if actually under a Geas spell without knowing. What you do about the relationships is up to you, but really the main way to create this idea is to have the Patron already trapped. You can do any of the other Patrons, but I suggest these two as their theme does not majorly impact large parts of lore as these individuals are already mysterious and adding a new powerful Fiend, Archfey, or Celestial can shake up the world story. Also, I did not include the Undying because I hate that archetype. Anyways, this should work for what you are thinking of.
Thanks for the reply. I get what you are saying but i was just wondering about it. I know the DMs i am playing with. None would agree for any patron to be... forced into a bargain. Even though i am not saying i am gonna get any special treatment such as the devil comes from the nine hells just to save me or help me make coffee. I was just seeing people's opinions on it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
I was wondering if the idea works, A character who tricked an archdevil (and the person is 100% certain of it) into the bargain since they are very lawful to their contracts even though there is always a twist. I haven't really thought "how" but would it be interesting or just a flat excuse to not have a downside?
Well, what's the story you want to tell really? Because that's the point of a patron to start with (beyond the rules that define the powers). I am pretty sure there is a narrative, but it isn't one I necessarily would use.
So, can you trick a powerful being (i'm saying being, because of all the celestrial warlocks going bad ;) This isn't isolated to Baatezu/Yugoloths/Tanar'ri.)? Can you make a bargain to secure their release from a prison, that minimizes downsides? Sure, as they aren't infallible. However, this would be an exceptional scenario where others would fail badly. The story could be how a such a being has the time to teach that pesky mortal a lesson. So assuming the goal is along the lines of "Give me power, and you can't boss me around or have my soul. But the counter is while that being may not be able directly affect the player, they certainly can affect other things. Examples:
Being threatens family and other loved ones to force a new contract. Even strangers dropping dead around you, tends to make you a pariah in town.
Being grants a boon (immortality) and has minions that manipulate the player into a prison...with a life sentence. Player has to bargain for death.
Being let's the player win, and sets up pieces and events so that he corrupts his own soul (hey, I didn't take your soul; you condemned yourself by all of those murders. Not my fault; your gods can still punish you.)
If a player just wanted to play a warlock with no strings, a remote patron (Great Old one) or stealing power from a dying power works as well. But as I said, if you have a story that you can work out with the DM, there isn't anything wrong with it. It just might need some convincing to other players and the DM to see the story.
I was wondering if the idea works, A character who tricked an archdevil (and the person is 100% certain of it) into the bargain since they are very lawful to their contracts even though there is always a twist. I haven't really thought "how" but would it be interesting or just a flat excuse to not have a downside?
Well, what's the story you want to tell really? Because that's the point of a patron to start with (beyond the rules that define the powers). I am pretty sure there is a narrative, but it isn't one I necessarily would use.
So, can you trick a powerful being (i'm saying being, because of all the celestrial warlocks going bad ;) This isn't isolated to Baatezu/Yugoloths/Tanar'ri.)? Can you make a bargain to secure their release from a prison, that minimizes downsides? Sure, as they aren't infallible. However, this would be an exceptional scenario where others would fail badly. The story could be how a such a being has the time to teach that pesky mortal a lesson. So assuming the goal is along the lines of "Give me power, and you can't boss me around or have my soul. But the counter is while that being may not be able directly affect the player, they certainly can affect other things. Examples:
Being threatens family and other loved ones to force a new contract. Even strangers dropping dead around you, tends to make you a pariah in town.
Being grants a boon (immortality) and has minions that manipulate the player into a prison...with a life sentence. Player has to bargain for death.
Being let's the player win, and sets up pieces and events so that he corrupts his own soul (hey, I didn't take your soul; you condemned yourself by all of those murders. Not my fault; your gods can still punish you.)
If a player just wanted to play a warlock with no strings, a remote patron (Great Old one) or stealing power from a dying power works as well. But as I said, if you have a story that you can work out with the DM, there isn't anything wrong with it. It just might need some convincing to other players and the DM to see the story.
It's a random thought and wanted to share and see some opinions. appreciate your response!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
4. Grants warlock powers to the character's nemesis, using a pact that actually has some teeth. IOW, the nemesis MUST defeat the PC or lose his soul to their mutual patron.
I was wondering if the idea works, A character who tricked an archdevil (and the person is 100% certain of it) into the bargain since they are very lawful to their contracts even though there is always a twist. I haven't really thought "how" but would it be interesting or just a flat excuse to not have a downside?
I like this idea. I would change it from "forced". Part of the whole thing with Warlock is that a deal is made. To me that means both parties are willing participants at the time the deal was made. I think coercion goes against the idea of the Pact. Now, the idea that the Warlock and or the Patron feel that the Warlock got he better end of this deal or that the Warlock now works against the interests of the Patron that is another story. To me the Patron has zero control over the power once given, and Mike Myers reinforced this in a video. The power was a deal granted and the Patron can't revoke the deal. It could be argued if both parties wanted to end it that's another story.
Nothing in the description says anything about know the Warlock "true name".
Also remember player characters, even elves, are mayflies to them. I'm sure a Devil would consider it no more then a bank considers a bad loan, part of the system. If a Devil let it be known a mortal got the better of it, do you think it would want that out? It would look weak.
I was wondering if the idea works, A character who tricked an archdevil (and the person is 100% certain of it) into the bargain since they are very lawful to their contracts even though there is always a twist. I haven't really thought "how" but would it be interesting or just a flat excuse to not have a downside?
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
I'd say having an archdevil angry at you would be considered a downside no matter what sort of bargain you tricked them into. Eventually they'll figure out how to get revenge. The same goes for any other patron powerful enough to bestow warlock powers on a PC.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
I can see tricking a powerful being into becoming a warlock's patron ending up very, very bad for the warlock sooner or later. Sure, it will work, but powerful extra planar beings hate being forced to do anything and they will get their revenge. Summon Adventurer sounds like a great spell for an archdevil to create.....
Professional computer geek
Even if the character somehow made sure he's untouchable? even in the after life? Not immortal as in he cannot die but the Archdevil cannot do anything or turn anyone or anything against him? I was thinking of the ultimate deal of a life time? it's like he or she is the biggest mistake for Archdevil or in devils history. Sure they are angry but they are lawful to their deals. TLDR, almost like diplomatic immunity
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Archdevils are masters of twisting deals to suit them without breaking the letter of the deals. Teaching a wizard who is on the same plane as the warlock to cast Summon Adventurer with the warlock’s name as part of the spell so only he is summoned isn’t hurting the warlock directly. And that’s simple. Archdevils are more creative than that.
Professional computer geek
which is something i understand. that's why i was saying someone who outsmarted them somehow and i want to know if it sounds cheesy? if that's the correct word to say.
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Honestly, forcing a patron to do your bidding is kind of the opposite of the premise of the Warlock class. Your Patron probably knows your true name so can definitely cast Gate to bring you directly to them and just kill you outright. Also, the idea of a pact means that the pact giver can choose whether or not to remove the Warlock from their connection. If you want to try this idea, go for a Great Old One Patron and have them trapped in some object that you control or go Hexblade and make them trapped in the weapon itself. Make your character just somehow come across the item and have made the pact because they are in control of the item. This allows the Warlock to not worry about some great being in some distant plane angry at them. If the Patron is angry at them, they can't do much about it because the item automatically gives the Patron's power to the user without the will of the Patron. The Warlock doesn't even have to be that cunning and could make for some neet role play where the Patron tries to manipulate their Warlock to get out of their prison. It could lead to an entire other adventure based on either trying to control the Patron if they had some sway like in a Geas spell or going through with freeing them as if actually under a Geas spell without knowing. What you do about the relationships is up to you, but really the main way to create this idea is to have the Patron already trapped. You can do any of the other Patrons, but I suggest these two as their theme does not majorly impact large parts of lore as these individuals are already mysterious and adding a new powerful Fiend, Archfey, or Celestial can shake up the world story. Also, I did not include the Undying because I hate that archetype. Anyways, this should work for what you are thinking of.
Thanks for the reply. I get what you are saying but i was just wondering about it. I know the DMs i am playing with. None would agree for any patron to be... forced into a bargain. Even though i am not saying i am gonna get any special treatment such as the devil comes from the nine hells just to save me or help me make coffee. I was just seeing people's opinions on it.
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Well, what's the story you want to tell really? Because that's the point of a patron to start with (beyond the rules that define the powers). I am pretty sure there is a narrative, but it isn't one I necessarily would use.
So, can you trick a powerful being (i'm saying being, because of all the celestrial warlocks going bad ;) This isn't isolated to Baatezu/Yugoloths/Tanar'ri.)? Can you make a bargain to secure their release from a prison, that minimizes downsides? Sure, as they aren't infallible. However, this would be an exceptional scenario where others would fail badly. The story could be how a such a being has the time to teach that pesky mortal a lesson. So assuming the goal is along the lines of "Give me power, and you can't boss me around or have my soul. But the counter is while that being may not be able directly affect the player, they certainly can affect other things. Examples:
If a player just wanted to play a warlock with no strings, a remote patron (Great Old one) or stealing power from a dying power works as well. But as I said, if you have a story that you can work out with the DM, there isn't anything wrong with it. It just might need some convincing to other players and the DM to see the story.
It's a random thought and wanted to share and see some opinions. appreciate your response!
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
4. Grants warlock powers to the character's nemesis, using a pact that actually has some teeth. IOW, the nemesis MUST defeat the PC or lose his soul to their mutual patron.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
I like this idea. I would change it from "forced".
Part of the whole thing with Warlock is that a deal is made. To me that means both parties are willing participants at the time the deal was made. I think coercion goes against the idea of the Pact. Now, the idea that the Warlock and or the Patron feel that the Warlock got he better end of this deal or that the Warlock now works against the interests of the Patron that is another story.
To me the Patron has zero control over the power once given, and Mike Myers reinforced this in a video. The power was a deal granted and the Patron can't revoke the deal. It could be argued if both parties wanted to end it that's another story.
Nothing in the description says anything about know the Warlock "true name".
Also remember player characters, even elves, are mayflies to them. I'm sure a Devil would consider it no more then a bank considers a bad loan, part of the system. If a Devil let it be known a mortal got the better of it, do you think it would want that out? It would look weak.