Exactly. As I wrote, I find the changes of the Feats in Xanathar rather disappointing. And even the better UA-versions (except the first Cursebringer) were no match for our Paladin. I play a Hexblade in our group and we have one Paladin 6/Sorcerer 5. And it feels like he is smiting all day long with a couple of othe useful feats like healing, Vow of Enmity, Save Bonuses and Spells as Bonus actions to boot...
Well now I can use my reaction to avoid being hit on a 4+ on a d6 against one enemy per short rest. That's something...
The single-target curse until level 14 is a bit of a bummer (especially since it also locks your level 10 ability), but I still think it's a cool class. I think really the big thing missing is spell slots for smites/shield, due to WotC's seeming to assume short fights with lots of rests, which is not how a lot of games run (see also: Arcane Archer and all other Warlocks).
That said, there's a lot of fun builds to be made, but I think you need to MC fighter or another spellcaster. Another poster mentioned a cool Rogue MC, which is similar to my preference for a Lore Bard. Both Rogue and Bard get you skills/expertise, useful abilities, keep your HD solid (though I think Tough is a great Hexblade feat), and don't force much MAD (you'll want Dex to 14 anyway if you plan to stick with medium armor, then just focusing on CHA and CON and feats). I like the idea of taking Lore Bard to 8 for +4 skills (2 expertise), 2 ASI's, cutting words on short rest (which works as a reverse-Shield), 11 Bard spells, fun non-combat cantrips, slots for low-level Warlock spells, 2 magical secrets (great to improve damage now that you have slots for Smites, or Haste, or Spiritual Weapon [which is bonus action damage, non-concentration, and pretty on-theme for Hexblade]). Now this example doesn't hit until level 20, but you could being doing Spiritual Weapon + Haste + Lifedrinker + Thirsting Blade for 3(Weapon) + 30 + Spiritual Weapon dice + 5 (+24 if they're cursed). While popping in and out of existence with Blink, while popping off a Shield or Cutting Words or Armor of Hexes if needed. That sounds like a super fun gish build to me. Yeah, paladin/bards or paladin/divine soul can get the same spells, but they can't smite and Haste at the same time, where your Lifedrinker and Curse always apply. And yeah, the auras and other features are cool, but so are invocations. Plus they have to have at least 13 Strength to MC (probably more if it's their primary weapon stat).
Thats the thing: it is mainly a good class for multiclassing. One level to make a pala or Sorcerer SAD and get the curse. 3 levels max If you want a pact and Invocations. And this is what I dont like.
On a sidenote: multiclassing gives you less potential slots for smiting as the Hexblade is (differently from the Pala) limited to Warlock spellslots for smites. This comes in addition to being allowed to smite only once per Turn as Hexblade while the pala is allowed to smite as often as He wants. And why would a Pala not be able to (divine) smite while hasted?
True, he can use Divine Smite while hasted (honestly forgot about that), the dice is still hugely variable though. I agree with you 100% about multiclassing, but that's true of all the Warlock patrons (Healing Light is a decent fix for the Celestial). As far as spell slots for smites, that's only true with the invocation smite (which makes it a terrible invocation, IMO). They can use smites on their expanded list (or picked up from other classes) with slots from other classes or Pact Magic. Taking 5 levels of Sorcerer or Bard like your Paladin did will you give you 9 more smites per day, just not Eldritch Smites (true only one per turn still). Total spell slots do go down compared to Paladin (level for level), unless your game is particularly short rest heavy. So yeah, Paladin will always get more, but you it's not really fair to compare when they're getting so many from another class (which you could also do). Plus, smiting is the whole point of the Paladin, not a Warlock. He can't throw an enemy into magical darkness only he can see through (unless they dip Warlock or Shadow Sorcerer, which again comparing that specific build isn't apples to apples). He can't do a number of things without spending resources like a Warlock..
I think they did about as good as they could given the restrictions of the Warlock template, a class that gets its best features at level one (Hex and EB), and then the game punishes you with higher level (and few) spell slots to keep using Hex without multiclassing. Pact of the Blade tried to make you versatile for melee, and Hexblade makes that process a lot more intuitive and functional. Paladin is arguably the best class in the game mechanically (though I don't really enjoy playing them), so fighters often feel overshadowed too. Maybe Hexblade would be better as a Paladin oath than a Warlock pact. I still think there's some fun stuff to do with it.
What I disagree with is that the Hexblade can do what the Paladin does regarding multiclassing. While the Pala can use any spell slot for smiting, the Hexblade may not. Plus the one smite per turn limit.
What the Eldritch Smite is nice for is the Polearm Master, Sentinel Feat combo. You can Not only stop an enemy 10 feet away with an OA, you can also knock him prone (without movement left to stand Up). This is how I try to use the smites.
Imho they could have easily made the Hexblade worthwhhile. If armor of hexes gave the cursed enemy disadvantage on attacks against the Hexblade and Master of Hexes allowed to use the Curse in more than one encounter both feats would be worth IT.
Aren't you bummed by the fact the hexblade curse is only useful once per rest?
i would prefer 2 per rest but you should be getting 2 to 3 short rests a session minimal so its only really an issue if your dm does not like short rests
Just to point out not all groups get 2 to 3 short rests between long rests. My group does not work this way, we rarely get short rests. We often go multiple battles between long rests.
Aren't you bummed by the fact the hexblade curse is only useful once per rest?
i would prefer 2 per rest but you should be getting 2 to 3 short rests a session minimal so its only really an issue if your dm does not like short rests
Just to point out not all groups get 2 to 3 short rests between long rests. My group does not work this way, we rarely get short rests. We often go multiple battles between long rests.
The assumption of 2 to 3 short rests between a long rest is there to ensure all classes stay roughly at the same power level. If your dm is not paying attention to the short rest guidelines (which he should, since it's very easy to adapt to any game) he is making any short rest dependent class (battlemaster, monks and warlocks, for example) severely weaker. A warlock in your game will never be able to keep up with other spellcasters as far as spellcasting power is concerned. If you want a mathematical breakdown check the user DivisibleByZero posts in this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553318-Does-the-warlock-count-as-a-full-caster
Aren't you bummed by the fact the hexblade curse is only useful once per rest?
i would prefer 2 per rest but you should be getting 2 to 3 short rests a session minimal so its only really an issue if your dm does not like short rests
Just to point out not all groups get 2 to 3 short rests between long rests. My group does not work this way, we rarely get short rests. We often go multiple battles between long rests.
The assumption of 2 to 3 short rests between a long rest is there to ensure all classes stay roughly at the same power level. If your dm is not paying attention to the short rest guidelines (which he should, since it's very easy to adapt to any game) he is making any short rest dependent class (battlemaster, monks and warlocks, for example) severely weaker. A warlock in your game will never be able to keep up with other spellcasters as far as spellcasting power is concerned. If you want a mathematical breakdown check the user DivisibleByZero posts in this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553318-Does-the-warlock-count-as-a-full-caster
Just pointing out that not all groups play that way. I am playing the Warlock and I am having a blast. I just conserve my spell slots for the big fights and use my cantrips for the trash mobs. By brother is also playing a Monk without falling behind. Sure I wouldn't mind more short rests, but without them I am still doing great damage and controlling the battlefield with Agonizing + Repelling blast. YMMV.
I'm running official adventures pretty much as a rule. Some adventures have days passing between encounters and some adventures run almost entirely in a big haste. Look, even, at the newest Epic Adventure for ToA. Groups are expected to have, at least, three big encounters (preferably more) with only one short rest (maybe two, if you're lucky). Y-WOTC-MMV.
Aren't you bummed by the fact the hexblade curse is only useful once per rest?
i would prefer 2 per rest but you should be getting 2 to 3 short rests a session minimal so its only really an issue if your dm does not like short rests
Just to point out not all groups get 2 to 3 short rests between long rests. My group does not work this way, we rarely get short rests. We often go multiple battles between long rests.
The assumption of 2 to 3 short rests between a long rest is there to ensure all classes stay roughly at the same power level. If your dm is not paying attention to the short rest guidelines (which he should, since it's very easy to adapt to any game) he is making any short rest dependent class (battlemaster, monks and warlocks, for example) severely weaker. A warlock in your game will never be able to keep up with other spellcasters as far as spellcasting power is concerned. If you want a mathematical breakdown check the user DivisibleByZero posts in this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553318-Does-the-warlock-count-as-a-full-caster
Just pointing out that not all groups play that way. I am playing the Warlock and I am having a blast. I just conserve my spell slots for the big fights and use my cantrips for the trash mobs. By brother is also playing a Monk without falling behind. Sure I wouldn't mind more short rests, but without them I am still doing great damage and controlling the battlefield with Agonizing + Repelling blast. YMMV.
I am aware some groups don't play it like that. What I am saying is that there is no reason to be deprived of short rests, specially since it directly impacts some classes perfomances. If you can't usually take short rests due to time constraints, one alternative is to reduce the 1h short rest time to 5-X minutes and limit it to two times a day. And of course you won't be completely useless without short rests, but it does diminish your power. Short rest classes were designed to use their powers consistently throughout the adventuring day. as opposed to long rest classes, who have to play a bit more conservatively. From what I gather, instead of using your few spell slots (or ki, maneuveurs etc) sparingly through encounters you're instead saving everything to use in the hard fight of the day. If you're okay with that, more power to you, I guess, but as I pointed out, you need only make simple adjustments to bring those classes to the power level of the long rest classes. Not to mention it would be more fun.
@SabreRunner
I've never played any official modules, so I cannot comment on them, but three encounters with 1-2 short rests between them is within the expected guidelines.
I am aware some groups don't play it like that. What I am saying is that there is no reason to be deprived of short rests, specially since it directly impacts some classes perfomances. If you can't usually take short rests due to time constraints, one alternative is to reduce the 1h short rest time to 5-X minutes and limit it to two times a day. And of course you won't be completely useless without short rests, but it does diminish your power. Short rest classes were designed to use their powers consistently throughout the adventuring day. as opposed to long rest classes, who have to play a bit more conservatively. From what I gather, instead of using your few spell slots (or ki, maneuveurs etc) sparingly through encounters you're instead saving everything to use in the hard fight of the day. If you're okay with that, more power to you, I guess, but as I pointed out, you need only make simple adjustments to bring those classes to the power level of the long rest classes. Not to mention it would be more fun.
@SabreRunner
I've never played any official modules, so I cannot comment on them, but three encounters with 1-2 short rests between them is within the expected guidelines.
Well, I appreciate your point of view, but I believe I know better how me and my group have "more fun".
I don't feel any less powerful than the other caster in the group because I save my limited spell slots for big fights. The only think I really miss is they can spare a few slots for QoL and Utility spells, while most of mine have to go toward mostly combat. Right now we are almost all the way through the Rise of Tiamat module (we started with the Hoard of the Dragon Queen), and I don't feel underpowered at all.
You know the eldritch smite can knock a flying dragon prone (as long as it is huge or smaller) on the ground with no save. It has some utility that a paladins smite doesn't have.
You know the eldritch smite can knock a flying dragon prone (as long as it is huge or smaller) on the ground with no save. It has some utility that a paladins smite doesn't have.
Good reason to have Improved Pact Weapon, for the ranged attack.
Exactly. As I wrote, I find the changes of the Feats in Xanathar rather disappointing. And even the better UA-versions (except the first Cursebringer) were no match for our Paladin. I play a Hexblade in our group and we have one Paladin 6/Sorcerer 5. And it feels like he is smiting all day long with a couple of othe useful feats like healing, Vow of Enmity, Save Bonuses and Spells as Bonus actions to boot...
Well now I can use my reaction to avoid being hit on a 4+ on a d6 against one enemy per short rest. That's something...
The single-target curse until level 14 is a bit of a bummer (especially since it also locks your level 10 ability), but I still think it's a cool class. I think really the big thing missing is spell slots for smites/shield, due to WotC's seeming to assume short fights with lots of rests, which is not how a lot of games run (see also: Arcane Archer and all other Warlocks).
That said, there's a lot of fun builds to be made, but I think you need to MC fighter or another spellcaster. Another poster mentioned a cool Rogue MC, which is similar to my preference for a Lore Bard. Both Rogue and Bard get you skills/expertise, useful abilities, keep your HD solid (though I think Tough is a great Hexblade feat), and don't force much MAD (you'll want Dex to 14 anyway if you plan to stick with medium armor, then just focusing on CHA and CON and feats). I like the idea of taking Lore Bard to 8 for +4 skills (2 expertise), 2 ASI's, cutting words on short rest (which works as a reverse-Shield), 11 Bard spells, fun non-combat cantrips, slots for low-level Warlock spells, 2 magical secrets (great to improve damage now that you have slots for Smites, or Haste, or Spiritual Weapon [which is bonus action damage, non-concentration, and pretty on-theme for Hexblade]). Now this example doesn't hit until level 20, but you could being doing Spiritual Weapon + Haste + Lifedrinker + Thirsting Blade for 3(Weapon) + 30 + Spiritual Weapon dice + 5 (+24 if they're cursed). While popping in and out of existence with Blink, while popping off a Shield or Cutting Words or Armor of Hexes if needed. That sounds like a super fun gish build to me. Yeah, paladin/bards or paladin/divine soul can get the same spells, but they can't smite and Haste at the same time, where your Lifedrinker and Curse always apply. And yeah, the auras and other features are cool, but so are invocations. Plus they have to have at least 13 Strength to MC (probably more if it's their primary weapon stat).
Thats the thing: it is mainly a good class for multiclassing. One level to make a pala or Sorcerer SAD and get the curse. 3 levels max If you want a pact and Invocations. And this is what I dont like.
On a sidenote: multiclassing gives you less potential slots for smiting as the Hexblade is (differently from the Pala) limited to Warlock spellslots for smites. This comes in addition to being allowed to smite only once per Turn as Hexblade while the pala is allowed to smite as often as He wants. And why would a Pala not be able to (divine) smite while hasted?
True, he can use Divine Smite while hasted (honestly forgot about that), the dice is still hugely variable though. I agree with you 100% about multiclassing, but that's true of all the Warlock patrons (Healing Light is a decent fix for the Celestial). As far as spell slots for smites, that's only true with the invocation smite (which makes it a terrible invocation, IMO). They can use smites on their expanded list (or picked up from other classes) with slots from other classes or Pact Magic. Taking 5 levels of Sorcerer or Bard like your Paladin did will you give you 9 more smites per day, just not Eldritch Smites (true only one per turn still). Total spell slots do go down compared to Paladin (level for level), unless your game is particularly short rest heavy. So yeah, Paladin will always get more, but you it's not really fair to compare when they're getting so many from another class (which you could also do). Plus, smiting is the whole point of the Paladin, not a Warlock. He can't throw an enemy into magical darkness only he can see through (unless they dip Warlock or Shadow Sorcerer, which again comparing that specific build isn't apples to apples). He can't do a number of things without spending resources like a Warlock..
I think they did about as good as they could given the restrictions of the Warlock template, a class that gets its best features at level one (Hex and EB), and then the game punishes you with higher level (and few) spell slots to keep using Hex without multiclassing. Pact of the Blade tried to make you versatile for melee, and Hexblade makes that process a lot more intuitive and functional. Paladin is arguably the best class in the game mechanically (though I don't really enjoy playing them), so fighters often feel overshadowed too. Maybe Hexblade would be better as a Paladin oath than a Warlock pact. I still think there's some fun stuff to do with it.
What I disagree with is that the Hexblade can do what the Paladin does regarding multiclassing. While the Pala can use any spell slot for smiting, the Hexblade may not. Plus the one smite per turn limit.
What the Eldritch Smite is nice for is the Polearm Master, Sentinel Feat combo. You can Not only stop an enemy 10 feet away with an OA, you can also knock him prone (without movement left to stand Up). This is how I try to use the smites.
Imho they could have easily made the Hexblade worthwhhile. If armor of hexes gave the cursed enemy disadvantage on attacks against the Hexblade and Master of Hexes allowed to use the Curse in more than one encounter both feats would be worth IT.
I'm running official adventures pretty much as a rule. Some adventures have days passing between encounters and some adventures run almost entirely in a big haste. Look, even, at the newest Epic Adventure for ToA. Groups are expected to have, at least, three big encounters (preferably more) with only one short rest (maybe two, if you're lucky). Y-WOTC-MMV.
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I've never played any official modules, so I cannot comment on them, but three encounters with 1-2 short rests between them is within the expected guidelines.
I am building a hexblade warlock and I am missing tons of eldrich invocations like thirsting blade
Where
You know the eldritch smite can knock a flying dragon prone (as long as it is huge or smaller) on the ground with no save. It has some utility that a paladins smite doesn't have.
Good reason to have Improved Pact Weapon, for the ranged attack.
Or, just throw a dagger?
I believe a thrown dagger becomes a ranged weapon the second you throw it. Dont know how that apply to the smite then.