I'm building a high elf scribes wizard. I got two high roles, and four roles 13 and under. This has got me thinking about which is more important, Con or Dex for a wizard.
Out of those two, I'd say Dex. You're not supposed to be taking damage and you'll never get decent health anyway, so you're best off avoiding it. Unless you're going to dip Fighter for heavy armour, Dex will increase your AC by 1, reducing your hits by 5% overall and therefore, on average, your damage by about 1/7th. You'll also be more likely to go before an enemy, allowing you to perhaps prevent damage by taking them out before they get their turn that round, plus it boosts a lot of useful skills and even helps you on Dex Saving Throws, which are pretty common.
Constitution will give you +1HP per level, +1 on your Hit Dice rolls and boost your Con Saving Throws, which are significantly less common...though I think they generally do more harm.
Personally, I'd go for Dex. With a measly d6 Hit Die, your best bet is minimise the chances of getting hit rather than trying to absorb it.
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1st - INT pretty much a no brainer, your primary casting stat, also helps determine how many spells you can prepare.
2nd and 3rd - CON and DEX, they are pretty much tied but if I had to pick I would maybe place CON slightly higher than DEX because your 1d6 hit die needs all the padding up it can get. Con also helps with concentration checks on your spells. DEX meanwhile affects your AC for most Wizard builds and a lot of nasty things like traps also require DEX saves. But a Wizard normally have ways to bump their AC when in a bind like with the Shield spell and checking for traps/ opening shady looking chests is usually the job for the Rogue/Ranger.
4th WIS - a lot of nasty effects like charm requires WIS saves but since Wizard starts with WIS saves it gets the stat dropped into the bottom half. Also helps with useful skills like Perception and Insight.
5th CHA - if push comes to shove this is my secondary dump stat. A wizard is normally not required to be the face of the party which results in CHA being ranked so low
6th STR - primary dump stat for most wizard builds.
Constitution will give you +1HP per level, +1 on your Hit Dice rolls and boost your Con Saving Throws, which are significantly less common...though I think they generally do more harm.
Con saves are incredibly common for wizards, since they will almost always have a concentration spell going.
2nd and 3rd - CON and DEX, they are pretty much tied but if I had to pick I would maybe place CON slightly higher than DEX because your 1d6 hit die needs all the padding up it can get. Con also helps with concentration checks on your spells. DEX meanwhile affects your AC for most Wizard builds and a lot of nasty things like traps also require DEX saves. But a Wizard normally have ways to bump their AC when in a bind like with the Shield spell and checking for traps/ opening shady looking chests is usually the job for the Rogue/Ranger.
I view it completely the other way. There are few ways for a wizard to give themselves a permanent AC increase other than directly boosting their DEX, assuming you're getting your AC from mage armor and shield, while there are feats that can boost those concentration checks (Warcaster and Resilient CON being the most common) in better ways than simply having a higher CON
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Constitution will give you +1HP per level, +1 on your Hit Dice rolls and boost your Con Saving Throws, which are significantly less common...though I think they generally do more harm.
Con saves are incredibly common for wizards, since they will almost always have a concentration spell going.
True, I'd forgotten about that. For my analysis I'll use unadjusted values since concentration saves aren't ones I have data for, since it's partly based on damage done.
However, an increase in Dex will give a decrease of 5% likelihood in having to take aq concentration save in the first place, while a boost to Con will give you a 5% boost in chance in trying to save your concentration on the hits that land. This actually means that this benefits the Dex side of things because you keep your concentration in 5% more of all rolls, where s if you put it to Con, you keep your concentration in 5% of hits landed, or about 3.25% of all rolls (assuming you're in line with the 65% of hits land assumed in the balancing of the game).
Of course, if the attack doesn't target your Dex (ie isn't a Dex Save or affected by AC, so depends on a Saving Throw other than Dex), then Con would be advantageous. The stats would need 50% or more attacks to do this to valance out the value - in my experience this isn't true. The large majority of attacks, in my experience at any rate, either target AC or force a Dex Saving Throw.
Thus, this actually leans the conclusion to the Dex side of things further.
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Of course, if the attack doesn't target your Dex (ie isn't a Dex Save or affected by AC, so depends on a Saving Throw other than Dex), then Con would be advantageous. The stats would need 50% or more attacks to do this to valance out the value - in my experience this isn't true. The large majority of attacks, in my experience at any rate, either target AC or force a Dex Saving Throw.
While there are are a lot of Dexterity saves, they tend to be low value "save for half damage", while a lot of Constitution (and Wisdom) saves are "save to determine whether you're hosed, and repeat the save to determine how long".
Against save for half, increasing your chance to save from 40% to 50% reduces typical effect by 1/15 (80% vs 75%)
Against save negates, increasing your chance to save from 40% to 50% reduces typical effect by 1/6 (60% vs 50%)
Against save ends, increasing your chance to save from 40% to 50% reduces typical duration by 1/3 (60% for 2.5 turns vs 50% for 2 turns).
It might help the thought process to know I'm planning on specializing in battlefield control, out of combat utility, and adding some buffing/debuffing later. As a scribes wizard I don't get any subclass features that enhance my concentration checks. So I'm definitely planning on taking warcaster as soon as possible. If my con score ends on an odd number I might consider resilient con.
Constitution will give you +1HP per level, +1 on your Hit Dice rolls and boost your Con Saving Throws, which are significantly less common...though I think they generally do more harm.
Con saves are incredibly common for wizards, since they will almost always have a concentration spell going.
True, I'd forgotten about that. For my analysis I'll use unadjusted values since concentration saves aren't ones I have data for, since it's partly based on damage done.
However, an increase in Dex will give a decrease of 5% likelihood in having to take aq concentration save in the first place, while a boost to Con will give you a 5% boost in chance in trying to save your concentration on the hits that land. This actually means that this benefits the Dex side of things because you keep your concentration in 5% more of all rolls, where s if you put it to Con, you keep your concentration in 5% of hits landed, or about 3.25% of all rolls (assuming you're in line with the 65% of hits land assumed in the balancing of the game).
Of course, if the attack doesn't target your Dex (ie isn't a Dex Save or affected by AC, so depends on a Saving Throw other than Dex), then Con would be advantageous. The stats would need 50% or more attacks to do this to valance out the value - in my experience this isn't true. The large majority of attacks, in my experience at any rate, either target AC or force a Dex Saving Throw.
Thus, this actually leans the conclusion to the Dex side of things further.
Neither the math nor logic supports this. The 5% difference that +1/-1 AC makes is only relevant if those 5% make any difference. Also the +1 to concentration checks is relevant to ALL checks (since you'll have to roll for concentration even if you just take a single point of damage). Many Dex saves only removes half the damage which means that even if that extra +1 to dex meant a difference to the actual save you are still at a 5% disadvantage for the con save (unless we're dealing with damage rolls of 20+). Also more Con means more HP. If you're dead or unconscious it doesn't matter how good of a Dex you have.
In general the enemy will have an easier time negating Dex/AC than Con which means that Con is the better choice, at least when it comes to maintaining concetration.
Having a higher CON means you have more HP, and better concentration checks (and other CON saves)
Having a higher DEX means you have a higher AC, which means you get hit less often and take less damage on save effects... which also means you do fewer concentration checks, and the ones you do make are a bit easier on average
Trying to actually quantify those effects accurately involves so many assumptions it's a fool's errand
With the one wizard I'm playing right now (9th level, deep in the bowels of the Tomb of Annihilation), I haven't actually had to make many CON checks despite taking Resilient CON because I do a good job of not taking damage -- not from AC and DEX, but from simply avoiding being in the line of fire. In a fight with a hydra I kept a slow up on it by using misty step and dimension door to get away from trouble, not from avoiding blows or being particularly tough
Really, the choice whether you want a higher DEX or CON should come down to play style and character concept, not what the "numbers" say is the "optimal" pick
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Neither the math nor logic supports this. The 5% difference that +1/-1 AC makes is only relevant if those 5% make any difference.
That's how it works on both counts. If the roll is a 10, the +1 only matters if the target is 11. So, if your Con Mod is +1 and you roll a 10, then it only matters if the DC was 11. If it was 12 or greater, that +1 was irrelevant, same if thenDC was 10. He same with Dex saving throws and AC. It's how 5e generally works.
Also the +1 to concentration checks is relevant to ALL checks (since you'll have to roll for concentration even if you just take a single point of damage).
Not true, if they swing a sword at you or otherwise attack your AC, then the inceeased AC will mean that you don't take any damage if they roll beneath your AC.
Many Dex saves only removes half the damage which means that even if that extra +1 to dex meant a difference to the actual save you are still at a 5% disadvantage for the con save (unless we're dealing with damage rolls of 20+). Also more Con means more HP. If you're dead or unconscious it doesn't matter how good of a Dex you have.
You're lees likely to receive damage in the first place. 1 in 20 Dex focused attacks will miss or halve their damage due to your increased dexterity. Constitute will give you 1HP per level...again, in my experience, the dodged attacks would have done more damage than HP equal to your level
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Of course, if the attack doesn't target your Dex (ie isn't a Dex Save or affected by AC, so depends on a Saving Throw other than Dex), then Con would be advantageous. The stats would need 50% or more attacks to do this to valance out the value - in my experience this isn't true. The large majority of attacks, in my experience at any rate, either target AC or force a Dex Saving Throw.
While there are are a lot of Dexterity saves, they tend to be low value "save for half damage", while a lot of Constitution (and Wisdom) saves are "save to determine whether you're hosed, and repeat the save to determine how long".
Against save for half, increasing your chance to save from 40% to 50% reduces typical effect by 1/15 (80% vs 75%)
Against save negates, increasing your chance to save from 40% to 50% reduces typical effect by 1/6 (60% vs 50%)
Against save ends, increasing your chance to save from 40% to 50% reduces typical duration by 1/3 (60% for 2.5 turns vs 50% for 2 turns).
Fair, but how common are Con saves for spells etc? Really rare, in my experience. Sure, the save means a lot more when incomes around, but I rarely have to do them. And it's on a 1/20 of those that the +1 will actually help. I recently finished a L1-13 campaign, I'm not sure I would have, statistically, sen that save against a spell the entire campaign. The +1 tonDex/AC though? I think I'd have seen a difference every other session, give or take. Yes, the Con save would be more crippling - losing a round or two on average - but itnhappens so infrequently that a character might never know the difference of that +1. That frequency has to be weighed up.
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Depending on your background and the rest of your party I would go Wisdom, Charisma or Constitution next. If you have a large party with all the social and exploration feats covered by others I would go constitution next. If your Wizard is going to need to make skill checks I would go Wisdom or Charisma next.
Constitution will give you +1HP per level, +1 on your Hit Dice rolls and boost your Con Saving Throws, which are significantly less common...though I think they generally do more harm.
Con saves are incredibly common for wizards, since they will almost always have a concentration spell going.
True, I'd forgotten about that. For my analysis I'll use unadjusted values since concentration saves aren't ones I have data for, since it's partly based on damage done.
However, an increase in Dex will give a decrease of 5% likelihood in having to take aq concentration save in the first place, while a boost to Con will give you a 5% boost in chance in trying to save your concentration on the hits that land. This actually means that this benefits the Dex side of things because you keep your concentration in 5% more of all rolls, where s if you put it to Con, you keep your concentration in 5% of hits landed, or about 3.25% of all rolls (assuming you're in line with the 65% of hits land assumed in the balancing of the game).
Of course, if the attack doesn't target your Dex (ie isn't a Dex Save or affected by AC, so depends on a Saving Throw other than Dex), then Con would be advantageous. The stats would need 50% or more attacks to do this to valance out the value - in my experience this isn't true. The large majority of attacks, in my experience at any rate, either target AC or force a Dex Saving Throw.
Thus, this actually leans the conclusion to the Dex side of things further.
Neither the math nor logic supports this. The 5% difference that +1/-1 AC makes is only relevant if those 5% make any difference. Also the +1 to concentration checks is relevant to ALL checks (since you'll have to roll for concentration even if you just take a single point of damage). Many Dex saves only removes half the damage which means that even if that extra +1 to dex meant a difference to the actual save you are still at a 5% disadvantage for the con save (unless we're dealing with damage rolls of 20+). Also more Con means more HP. If you're dead or unconscious it doesn't matter how good of a Dex you have.
In general the enemy will have an easier time negating Dex/AC than Con which means that Con is the better choice, at least when it comes to maintaining concetration.
Here is how I see dex vs con
1. Hit points:
The difference in hps almost never matters unless you are pumping con with multiple ASIs. The higher AC will generally let you survive longer than the higher hps will, especially if you use spells like false life to further boost effective hps.
2. Concentration saves:
in terms of concentration saves against attacks specifically a +1 bonus translates to a 5% better chance of saving 100% of the times you are hit and something less than 100% of the times you are attacked. So it will make a difference in 5% of something less than 100%. A +1 bonus in dexterity translates to a 100% chance of succeeding on a con save in 5% of the times you are attacked.
in terms of math the chance of failing due to an attack is: chance attack hits*chance to fail save. Assuming constant damage the effect here is equivalent. A +1 dex or a +1 con will result in exactly the same chance of failing a concentration save due to an attack.
This assumes the bad guys do not need higher than a 20 or lower than a 1 to hit you. It also does not account for spells like silvery barbs or shield and it assumes it is possible to make the con save. Considering shield, silvery barbs and impossible saves will tilt it more favorably in the direction of dexterity.
Against concentration from damage caused by saves it is impossible to account for mathmatically without numerous assumptions. It depends specifically on how many dex saves there are vs con saves vs other saves and the amount each reduces the DC.
Against damage caused by things with no attack and no save (falling for example) constitution always will perform better, but this is rare.
I think concentration saves are far more common against attacks than save or non-save effects and far more "makable" against attacks than those other things.
3. General saves:
Dex saves are more common than Constitution saves but they are also more easily mitigated through spells like absorb elements. I would call this close.
4. Abilities and skills
Aside from the obvious damage/concentration/save effects noted above dexterity is also more useful for attacks and for skills both in and out of combat. While perhaps a marginal benefit in some games, it is a benefit.
Neither the math nor logic supports this. The 5% difference that +1/-1 AC makes is only relevant if those 5% make any difference.
That's how it works on both counts. If the roll is a 10, the +1 only matters if the target is 11. So, if your Con Mod is +1 and you roll a 10, then it only matters if the DC was 11. If it was 12 or greater, that +1 was irrelevant, same if thenDC was 10. He same with Dex saving throws and AC. It's how 5e generally works.
False equivalence on your part. If my opponent has such a high attack bonus that it will hit me on anything but a 1 regardless of if my AC is 12 or 13 then the extra point of Dex/AC is irrelevant. If I take *any* point of damage it doiesn't matter if I take 1 HP of damage or 19 points, I will still need to roll a 10 or higher which means that a higher con save is always useful.
Also the +1 to concentration checks is relevant to ALL checks (since you'll have to roll for concentration even if you just take a single point of damage).
Not true, if they swing a sword at you or otherwise attack your AC, then the inceeased AC will mean that you don't take any damage if they roll beneath your AC.
Completely true. An enemy attacking you is not a check you make, it's the enemy attacking you. Since you will have to make concentration checks for every attack that hits you the +1 to concentration checks is relevant to ALL checks.
Many Dex saves only removes half the damage which means that even if that extra +1 to dex meant a difference to the actual save you are still at a 5% disadvantage for the con save (unless we're dealing with damage rolls of 20+). Also more Con means more HP. If you're dead or unconscious it doesn't matter how good of a Dex you have.
You're lees likely to receive damage in the first place. 1 in 20 Dex focused attacks will miss or halve their damage due to your increased dexterity.
Not true, as shown above.
Constitute will give you 1HP per level...again, in my experience, the dodged attacks would have done more damage than HP equal to your level
Neither the math nor logic supports this. The 5% difference that +1/-1 AC makes is only relevant if those 5% make any difference.
That's how it works on both counts. If the roll is a 10, the +1 only matters if the target is 11. So, if your Con Mod is +1 and you roll a 10, then it only matters if the DC was 11. If it was 12 or greater, that +1 was irrelevant, same if thenDC was 10. He same with Dex saving throws and AC. It's how 5e generally works.
False equivalence on your part. If my opponent has such a high attack bonus that it will hit me on anything but a 1 regardless of if my AC is 12 or 13 then the extra point of Dex/AC is irrelevant. If I take *any* point of damage it doiesn't matter if I take 1 HP of damage or 19 points, I will still need to roll a 10 or higher which means that a higher con save is always useful.
Also the +1 to concentration checks is relevant to ALL checks (since you'll have to roll for concentration even if you just take a single point of damage).
Not true, if they swing a sword at you or otherwise attack your AC, then the inceeased AC will mean that you don't take any damage if they roll beneath your AC.
Completely true. An enemy attacking you is not a check you make, it's the enemy attacking you. Since you will have to make concentration checks for every attack that hits you the +1 to concentration checks is relevant to ALL checks.
Many Dex saves only removes half the damage which means that even if that extra +1 to dex meant a difference to the actual save you are still at a 5% disadvantage for the con save (unless we're dealing with damage rolls of 20+). Also more Con means more HP. If you're dead or unconscious it doesn't matter how good of a Dex you have.
You're lees likely to receive damage in the first place. 1 in 20 Dex focused attacks will miss or halve their damage due to your increased dexterity.
Not true, as shown above.
Constitute will give you 1HP per level...again, in my experience, the dodged attacks would have done more damage than HP equal to your level
Anecdotal.
You've shown that that you don't understand how the maths work.
Let's say your Con is currently 11, with a +0 mod. You can a choice of increasing both your Con and your Con mod by +1. Let's run the two scenarios of an enemy attacking you. Let's say the attack sets a DC of 15, and you roll a 14. In that case, your increase matters, because it scores you a 15 instead of a 14. It was a good thing you chose to add to your Con, right?
Now let's say the attack sets a DC of 14, same roll. Does the increase matter (we're specifically talking about the save here, nothing else? No, it doesn't. Whether you chose the increase or not, you passwith that roll. This is true for all rolls higher than 13 in this scenario, or DCs lower than 15 with that roll. Whether you get 14, 15, 16, 20, it doesn't matter, you've passed. You don't get brownie points (houserules notwithstanding) for getting higher than the DC.
Now, let's say that the attack sets a DC of 16, with the same roll. Does the increase matter? No, it doesn't. You fail regardless. This is true whether you roll a 14, a 13, or anything lower than 15, or any DC higher than 15 with that roll.
Literally, the only time that +1 matters is if the roll happens to be such that the +1 is the difference between passing and failing and that will only ever happen 1 in 20 rolls. That's the same on an AC roll or on a saving throw. The only differences between a saving throw and an AC based attack are:
1. Who sets the DC
2. Who rolls the d20 and adds their appropriate modifiers to it.
3. Often saving throws have more complicated effects to resolve afterwards, but that isn't pertinent to what we're discussing.
Adding +1 to AC and Saving Throws has thensame effect in resolving whether an attack is defended against - for each +1, 1 in 20 fewer attacks will be successful.
I'm building a high elf scribes wizard. I got two high roles, and four roles 13 and under. This has got me thinking about which is more important, Con or Dex for a wizard.
Any thoughts?
Out of those two, I'd say Dex. You're not supposed to be taking damage and you'll never get decent health anyway, so you're best off avoiding it. Unless you're going to dip Fighter for heavy armour, Dex will increase your AC by 1, reducing your hits by 5% overall and therefore, on average, your damage by about 1/7th. You'll also be more likely to go before an enemy, allowing you to perhaps prevent damage by taking them out before they get their turn that round, plus it boosts a lot of useful skills and even helps you on Dex Saving Throws, which are pretty common.
Constitution will give you +1HP per level, +1 on your Hit Dice rolls and boost your Con Saving Throws, which are significantly less common...though I think they generally do more harm.
Personally, I'd go for Dex. With a measly d6 Hit Die, your best bet is minimise the chances of getting hit rather than trying to absorb it.
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My ranking for Wizard stats are as follows:
1st - INT pretty much a no brainer, your primary casting stat, also helps determine how many spells you can prepare.
2nd and 3rd - CON and DEX, they are pretty much tied but if I had to pick I would maybe place CON slightly higher than DEX because your 1d6 hit die needs all the padding up it can get. Con also helps with concentration checks on your spells. DEX meanwhile affects your AC for most Wizard builds and a lot of nasty things like traps also require DEX saves. But a Wizard normally have ways to bump their AC when in a bind like with the Shield spell and checking for traps/ opening shady looking chests is usually the job for the Rogue/Ranger.
4th WIS - a lot of nasty effects like charm requires WIS saves but since Wizard starts with WIS saves it gets the stat dropped into the bottom half. Also helps with useful skills like Perception and Insight.
5th CHA - if push comes to shove this is my secondary dump stat. A wizard is normally not required to be the face of the party which results in CHA being ranked so low
6th STR - primary dump stat for most wizard builds.
Con saves are incredibly common for wizards, since they will almost always have a concentration spell going.
I view it completely the other way. There are few ways for a wizard to give themselves a permanent AC increase other than directly boosting their DEX, assuming you're getting your AC from mage armor and shield, while there are feats that can boost those concentration checks (Warcaster and Resilient CON being the most common) in better ways than simply having a higher CON
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In terms of survivability, definitely Con. At, say, 5th level, with mage armor active, against a monster that is attacking you for +6/5 damage:
However, Dex has other side benefits; if you're planning to, say, use a crossbow, light at low levels, Dex will certainly perform better.
True, I'd forgotten about that. For my analysis I'll use unadjusted values since concentration saves aren't ones I have data for, since it's partly based on damage done.
However, an increase in Dex will give a decrease of 5% likelihood in having to take aq concentration save in the first place, while a boost to Con will give you a 5% boost in chance in trying to save your concentration on the hits that land. This actually means that this benefits the Dex side of things because you keep your concentration in 5% more of all rolls, where s if you put it to Con, you keep your concentration in 5% of hits landed, or about 3.25% of all rolls (assuming you're in line with the 65% of hits land assumed in the balancing of the game).
Of course, if the attack doesn't target your Dex (ie isn't a Dex Save or affected by AC, so depends on a Saving Throw other than Dex), then Con would be advantageous. The stats would need 50% or more attacks to do this to valance out the value - in my experience this isn't true. The large majority of attacks, in my experience at any rate, either target AC or force a Dex Saving Throw.
Thus, this actually leans the conclusion to the Dex side of things further.
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While there are are a lot of Dexterity saves, they tend to be low value "save for half damage", while a lot of Constitution (and Wisdom) saves are "save to determine whether you're hosed, and repeat the save to determine how long".
I would agree its a tough decision but ultimately I would go Dex, concentrating isnt a big worry because every wizard takes warcaster or resilent con.
Thats just my thoughts as I have been playing my first wizard currently level 8
Thanks for the thoughts, numbers, and insights.
It might help the thought process to know I'm planning on specializing in battlefield control, out of combat utility, and adding some buffing/debuffing later. As a scribes wizard I don't get any subclass features that enhance my concentration checks. So I'm definitely planning on taking warcaster as soon as possible. If my con score ends on an odd number I might consider resilient con.
Neither the math nor logic supports this. The 5% difference that +1/-1 AC makes is only relevant if those 5% make any difference. Also the +1 to concentration checks is relevant to ALL checks (since you'll have to roll for concentration even if you just take a single point of damage). Many Dex saves only removes half the damage which means that even if that extra +1 to dex meant a difference to the actual save you are still at a 5% disadvantage for the con save (unless we're dealing with damage rolls of 20+). Also more Con means more HP. If you're dead or unconscious it doesn't matter how good of a Dex you have.
In general the enemy will have an easier time negating Dex/AC than Con which means that Con is the better choice, at least when it comes to maintaining concetration.
Having a higher CON means you have more HP, and better concentration checks (and other CON saves)
Having a higher DEX means you have a higher AC, which means you get hit less often and take less damage on save effects... which also means you do fewer concentration checks, and the ones you do make are a bit easier on average
Trying to actually quantify those effects accurately involves so many assumptions it's a fool's errand
With the one wizard I'm playing right now (9th level, deep in the bowels of the Tomb of Annihilation), I haven't actually had to make many CON checks despite taking Resilient CON because I do a good job of not taking damage -- not from AC and DEX, but from simply avoiding being in the line of fire. In a fight with a hydra I kept a slow up on it by using misty step and dimension door to get away from trouble, not from avoiding blows or being particularly tough
Really, the choice whether you want a higher DEX or CON should come down to play style and character concept, not what the "numbers" say is the "optimal" pick
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That's how it works on both counts. If the roll is a 10, the +1 only matters if the target is 11. So, if your Con Mod is +1 and you roll a 10, then it only matters if the DC was 11. If it was 12 or greater, that +1 was irrelevant, same if thenDC was 10. He same with Dex saving throws and AC. It's how 5e generally works.
Not true, if they swing a sword at you or otherwise attack your AC, then the inceeased AC will mean that you don't take any damage if they roll beneath your AC.
You're lees likely to receive damage in the first place. 1 in 20 Dex focused attacks will miss or halve their damage due to your increased dexterity. Constitute will give you 1HP per level...again, in my experience, the dodged attacks would have done more damage than HP equal to your level
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Fair, but how common are Con saves for spells etc? Really rare, in my experience. Sure, the save means a lot more when incomes around, but I rarely have to do them. And it's on a 1/20 of those that the +1 will actually help. I recently finished a L1-13 campaign, I'm not sure I would have, statistically, sen that save against a spell the entire campaign. The +1 tonDex/AC though? I think I'd have seen a difference every other session, give or take. Yes, the Con save would be more crippling - losing a round or two on average - but itnhappens so infrequently that a character might never know the difference of that +1. That frequency has to be weighed up.
Want to play D&D? Try the following resources first (each section withing vertical bars is a clickable link to find the resource).
|The free Basic Rules.|
|Some free short adventures| and |some more here too.| |Here is a series of encounters, some of which link together form a mini-adventure|.
You've played a few games and now want to buy materials? |Here's my guide on what to buy next|.
Doing the relevant searches
Also, a ton of creature powers use con save, some of which are stupidly powerful, such as a banshee wail.
Dex every time and twice on Sundays.
Depending on your background and the rest of your party I would go Wisdom, Charisma or Constitution next. If you have a large party with all the social and exploration feats covered by others I would go constitution next. If your Wizard is going to need to make skill checks I would go Wisdom or Charisma next.
Then the others not prioritized above.
Strength last
Here is how I see dex vs con
1. Hit points:
The difference in hps almost never matters unless you are pumping con with multiple ASIs. The higher AC will generally let you survive longer than the higher hps will, especially if you use spells like false life to further boost effective hps.
2. Concentration saves:
in terms of concentration saves against attacks specifically a +1 bonus translates to a 5% better chance of saving 100% of the times you are hit and something less than 100% of the times you are attacked. So it will make a difference in 5% of something less than 100%. A +1 bonus in dexterity translates to a 100% chance of succeeding on a con save in 5% of the times you are attacked.
in terms of math the chance of failing due to an attack is: chance attack hits*chance to fail save. Assuming constant damage the effect here is equivalent. A +1 dex or a +1 con will result in exactly the same chance of failing a concentration save due to an attack.
This assumes the bad guys do not need higher than a 20 or lower than a 1 to hit you. It also does not account for spells like silvery barbs or shield and it assumes it is possible to make the con save. Considering shield, silvery barbs and impossible saves will tilt it more favorably in the direction of dexterity.
Against concentration from damage caused by saves it is impossible to account for mathmatically without numerous assumptions. It depends specifically on how many dex saves there are vs con saves vs other saves and the amount each reduces the DC.
Against damage caused by things with no attack and no save (falling for example) constitution always will perform better, but this is rare.
I think concentration saves are far more common against attacks than save or non-save effects and far more "makable" against attacks than those other things.
3. General saves:
Dex saves are more common than Constitution saves but they are also more easily mitigated through spells like absorb elements. I would call this close.
4. Abilities and skills
Aside from the obvious damage/concentration/save effects noted above dexterity is also more useful for attacks and for skills both in and out of combat. While perhaps a marginal benefit in some games, it is a benefit.
I always try to start the game with CON 15 in order to round up with Resilient, usually at level 4.
DEX 14-16 depending if I manage to get armor proficiency somehow. I usually go for 16 if I’ll rely on Mage Armor.
False equivalence on your part. If my opponent has such a high attack bonus that it will hit me on anything but a 1 regardless of if my AC is 12 or 13 then the extra point of Dex/AC is irrelevant. If I take *any* point of damage it doiesn't matter if I take 1 HP of damage or 19 points, I will still need to roll a 10 or higher which means that a higher con save is always useful.
Completely true. An enemy attacking you is not a check you make, it's the enemy attacking you. Since you will have to make concentration checks for every attack that hits you the +1 to concentration checks is relevant to ALL checks.
Not true, as shown above.
Anecdotal.
You've shown that that you don't understand how the maths work.
Let's say your Con is currently 11, with a +0 mod. You can a choice of increasing both your Con and your Con mod by +1. Let's run the two scenarios of an enemy attacking you. Let's say the attack sets a DC of 15, and you roll a 14. In that case, your increase matters, because it scores you a 15 instead of a 14. It was a good thing you chose to add to your Con, right?
Now let's say the attack sets a DC of 14, same roll. Does the increase matter (we're specifically talking about the save here, nothing else? No, it doesn't. Whether you chose the increase or not, you passwith that roll. This is true for all rolls higher than 13 in this scenario, or DCs lower than 15 with that roll. Whether you get 14, 15, 16, 20, it doesn't matter, you've passed. You don't get brownie points (houserules notwithstanding) for getting higher than the DC.
Now, let's say that the attack sets a DC of 16, with the same roll. Does the increase matter? No, it doesn't. You fail regardless. This is true whether you roll a 14, a 13, or anything lower than 15, or any DC higher than 15 with that roll.
Literally, the only time that +1 matters is if the roll happens to be such that the +1 is the difference between passing and failing and that will only ever happen 1 in 20 rolls. That's the same on an AC roll or on a saving throw. The only differences between a saving throw and an AC based attack are:
1. Who sets the DC
2. Who rolls the d20 and adds their appropriate modifiers to it.
3. Often saving throws have more complicated effects to resolve afterwards, but that isn't pertinent to what we're discussing.
Adding +1 to AC and Saving Throws has thensame effect in resolving whether an attack is defended against - for each +1, 1 in 20 fewer attacks will be successful.
Want to play D&D? Try the following resources first (each section withing vertical bars is a clickable link to find the resource).
|The free Basic Rules.|
|Some free short adventures| and |some more here too.| |Here is a series of encounters, some of which link together form a mini-adventure|.
You've played a few games and now want to buy materials? |Here's my guide on what to buy next|.