The lowest summon spell in game Summon Beast gives you a 30 HP beast to put on the board. Yet Conjure Construct gives me only a 40 HP creature on the board. A creature that cost me a 4th level spell slot. As a 4th level full caster you are fighting CR 7 or 8 monsters that can almost 1 shot that construct you put on the board. It gets worse the higher the spells. Summon Draconic Spirit 5th level spell slot for a 50HP creature. by 5th level we're fighting CR 9 and 10 monsters that again are on an average round doing 40+ damage. Why would any wizard EVER use this spell. Summon Fiend is the same issue. 6th level spell slot, means I am now level 11 so CR 11 and 12 monsters with over 200 HP are on average doing 60 damage a round. I would just like the community to think about this game design and figure out why so many of the summon spells beyond 3rd level do not scale with the level of creatures players are pitted against. It makes all conjuring and summoning spells above Tier 1 play useless. Which, if I am honest makes me sad. Anyone else thinking this or am I just missing something?
Are you playing 14 or 24 is my question. Just asking cuz nerfs to summons in 24 were brutal but in 14 the summoning Druid was great. I think the reason is probably just because summons are just bad design they either take forever actions wise or aren’t worth it in combat. But…If your 4th level slot saves 50+ damage on the fighter then that’s a slot well used
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And you run, and you run
To catch up with the sun, but it’s sinking
And racingaround
To come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way
But you’re older
Shorter of Breath
And one day closer to death
currently in love with redesigning subclasses send me a message and I will try
I mean that is generally why the ranged attack summons are the better choice. There is a time and a place for the other ones to soak damage. But use the ranged attack models and play them like a spellcaster. The damage they will output round over round will easily make them worth the spell slot.
In did people usually fight monsters, and summoning means fighting monsters with more monsters, so won't they just kill each other if the summon isn't weak?
In did people usually fight monsters, and summoning means fighting monsters with more monsters, so won't they just kill each other if the summon isn't weak?
The summons are not weak, they are probably too good. They just have hit points that will have them last only a round or two if attacked by a CR enemy of your level. But lets say you use a level 4 slot summon aberrant, you are 8th level. It will have 40 hp, be ac 15 attack with your spell attack so likely +7 or +8, lets say beholder so it shoots a eye ray while flying around it gets 2 attacks and hits for 1d8+7. Okay now look at a fighter. They will lets say have 22 AC they are sword and board, their hit points are 76, they get 2 attacks at +7 or +8 maybe more if they have a magic weapon and hit for 1d8+6 or 7. Now sure the fighter might be a battle master and use a maneuver, maybe a feat boosts the damage a bit and their weapon may have a mastery that helps at that point. And yeah sure a heavy weapon guy will do more, they can optimize even more etc. But round 2 this isn't even a bonus action to get the beholderkin to attack. Even if you just use cantrips there is a solid chance you will out damage a fairly optimized fighter while it is still up, potentially an hour. And if the UA conjurer gets through, yeesh it will be fairly tanky as well as those 40 hit point will effectively be 72 at level 8.
Oh and as an aside to their hit points a wizard will likely have only 50 hitpoints at level 8, so enemies that can kill the summon in one round might just attack the wizard, drop them in one round. which removes the summon anyways.
The lowest summon spell in game Summon Beast gives you a 30 HP beast to put on the board. Yet Conjure Construct gives me only a 40 HP creature on the board. A creature that cost me a 4th level spell slot. As a 4th level full caster you are fighting CR 7 or 8 monsters that can almost 1 shot that construct you put on the board. It gets worse the higher the spells. Summon Draconic Spirit 5th level spell slot for a 50HP creature. by 5th level we're fighting CR 9 and 10 monsters that again are on an average round doing 40+ damage. Why would any wizard EVER use this spell. Summon Fiend is the same issue. 6th level spell slot, means I am now level 11 so CR 11 and 12 monsters with over 200 HP are on average doing 60 damage a round. I would just like the community to think about this game design and figure out why so many of the summon spells beyond 3rd level do not scale with the level of creatures players are pitted against. It makes all conjuring and summoning spells above Tier 1 play useless. Which, if I am honest makes me sad. Anyone else thinking this or am I just missing something?
Are you playing 14 or 24 is my question. Just asking cuz nerfs to summons in 24 were brutal but in 14 the summoning Druid was great. I think the reason is probably just because summons are just bad design they either take forever actions wise or aren’t worth it in combat. But…If your 4th level slot saves 50+ damage on the fighter then that’s a slot well used
And you run, and you run
To catch up with the sun, but it’s sinking
And racing around
To come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way
But you’re older
Shorter of Breath
And one day closer to death
currently in love with redesigning subclasses send me a message and I will try
I mean that is generally why the ranged attack summons are the better choice. There is a time and a place for the other ones to soak damage. But use the ranged attack models and play them like a spellcaster. The damage they will output round over round will easily make them worth the spell slot.
In did people usually fight monsters, and summoning means fighting monsters with more monsters, so won't they just kill each other if the summon isn't weak?
Or is that just stupid?
The summons are not weak, they are probably too good. They just have hit points that will have them last only a round or two if attacked by a CR enemy of your level. But lets say you use a level 4 slot summon aberrant, you are 8th level. It will have 40 hp, be ac 15 attack with your spell attack so likely +7 or +8, lets say beholder so it shoots a eye ray while flying around it gets 2 attacks and hits for 1d8+7. Okay now look at a fighter. They will lets say have 22 AC they are sword and board, their hit points are 76, they get 2 attacks at +7 or +8 maybe more if they have a magic weapon and hit for 1d8+6 or 7. Now sure the fighter might be a battle master and use a maneuver, maybe a feat boosts the damage a bit and their weapon may have a mastery that helps at that point. And yeah sure a heavy weapon guy will do more, they can optimize even more etc. But round 2 this isn't even a bonus action to get the beholderkin to attack. Even if you just use cantrips there is a solid chance you will out damage a fairly optimized fighter while it is still up, potentially an hour. And if the UA conjurer gets through, yeesh it will be fairly tanky as well as those 40 hit point will effectively be 72 at level 8.
Oh and as an aside to their hit points a wizard will likely have only 50 hitpoints at level 8, so enemies that can kill the summon in one round might just attack the wizard, drop them in one round. which removes the summon anyways.