see what you all forget is that the wizard's greatest strength as a caster is prep time.
Is this meant to be in a void where terrain doesn't matter? are there rounds before hard combat begins for casting buffs? What sorts of archtypes are these two casters, since those can radically affect what sort of fight each could put up. Is spells from Xanathar's fair game?
This is a very complex question and all these things matter.
As premptive answers; Wizard wins straight off with preptime/getting gold for material components thanks to access to spells the Sorcerer does not such as Simulacrum, Clone, etc. (though that ignores wish shenanigans but wish is all sorts of bullshit anyway, though in that case the Wizard benefits from having a lower amount of prep time while still having some, since he could cast more than one of those a day). Archtypes also matter, though moreso for the Wizard. Is it an abjuration Wizard? Then the Wizard has advantage on all the saves in this fight, resists half the damage, gets a damage shield, and can actually try to counterspell with a lower level slot and still succeed. A divination Wizard could portent and divine all sorts of advantages, such as knowing what spells the sorcerer could actually cast and using spells to counter that such as energy immunities. Evocation ironically isn't as flashy in this, but can still do decent damage. Notably a necromancer wizard could wear down the sorcerer with a ****load of zombies cause if you look at some theory calculations they can actually maintain a sizable force, especially if they are all equipped with crossbows. What I'm saying here is that a wizard can have a lot going on and there are a lot of types and the type of scenario really matters.
Inversely, the Sorcerer has a different set of benefits, Metamagics do really help beef up spells you cast. Heightened spell helps make the wizard much more likely to fail the save, Twinned spell can help if they say, conjure an elemental or something, Distant spell means that the sorcerer could engage at a far greater distance, which could easily play into this magic duel. And lets not forget that while the draconic and wild magic wouldn't be of much help in the scenario, the archtypes presented in Xanathars would certainly be useful. Storm Sorcerer is a counter to any sort of wave tactics, able to be more maneuverable (ignoring teleportation). Shadow Sorcerer at a high level can also gain resistance to nearly all damage, on top of the hound and strength of the grave helping both in offense and defense (and gives a reason to take that careful spell metamagic). And Divine Soul lets you access the Cleric spell list, which can grant access to serious versatility in spells that the Wizard had over you, like animate dead, etc.
Both classes have serious pros and cons, and the opening moves are crucial. The Wizard benefits from versatility and preparation, while the sorcerer has fewer options but the ones that they can do, tend to be fairly good. This is assuming that they don't just wish each other out of existence, or the wizard doesn't cast invulnerability and then just counterspells anything the sorcerer might have to actually threaten them at that point, or they don't instagib each other with power words. Basically pvp breaks down horribly at high levels and barely matters anyway, since other than maybe wizard and druid and sorcerer, all the other classes can kinda just get ****ed.
In an arena “two enter, one leaves” scenario, the sorcerer would seem to have a slight edge. In an “all time and space is our battlefield” scenario, I have to believe that the wizard would find a way to win.
Wizard/Necromancer to Sorcerer, “So you have defeated my undead army and my simulacrum. Let the battle begin!”
The ability to quicken spells gives the sorcerer a big advantage. Basically this becomes a counterspell fight. The wiz will counterspell the first attempt at a cast, however the Sorcerer will still be able to spam attack a cantrip as a bonus action. As a wizard I would want to consider any spell that gave a bonus action attack, such as crown of stars.
The nice spell for the Wizard is ---Feeblemind. The sorcerer would not likely have a good INT save and if this comes off game over.
BTW - this brings up a question. In your games do you allow players to know what spell is being cast before they attempt the counter spell? Or what even what level? I thought to allow an arcana check with a DC of 10 to know the spell level and dc of 15 to know the exact spell.....however this slows the game down.
As far as that style of ruling, I would have said something like dc 8 + the spells level for identifying it, or maybe like dc 6+ prof + spell level.
The thing to remember is that a Sorcerer also has counterspell, so it becomes pretty messy. This is also why I think abjuration wizard wins thanks to them being able to gamble the counterspell at a lower level, and just being a lot more durable by comparison.
There are many ways I see the Wizard winning... one of which is to use Wish to instantly get a Simulacrum which doubles everything about a Wizard except his hp... then it is a 2 vs. 1 massacre.
If the sorcerer has Subtle Spell, the wizard doesn't get to counterspell. This is a massive advantage for the sorcerer in a straight duel, and probably even gives the sorcerer a fighting chance if the wizard has time to prepare.
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who would win in a max level one on one fight to the death
Sorcerer. They can just make a bunch of 9th level spell slots, then unleash them as lightning bolt. Wizards just get spells. Ppht.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
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Considering how squishy both classes are and how much damage both of them do, I’d say whichever one wins initiative would win the fight.
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Sorcerers can only create and destroy slots fith level and below
Really? Oh. That sucks.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
see what you all forget is that the wizard's greatest strength as a caster is prep time.
Is this meant to be in a void where terrain doesn't matter? are there rounds before hard combat begins for casting buffs? What sorts of archtypes are these two casters, since those can radically affect what sort of fight each could put up. Is spells from Xanathar's fair game?
This is a very complex question and all these things matter.
As premptive answers; Wizard wins straight off with preptime/getting gold for material components thanks to access to spells the Sorcerer does not such as Simulacrum, Clone, etc. (though that ignores wish shenanigans but wish is all sorts of bullshit anyway, though in that case the Wizard benefits from having a lower amount of prep time while still having some, since he could cast more than one of those a day). Archtypes also matter, though moreso for the Wizard. Is it an abjuration Wizard? Then the Wizard has advantage on all the saves in this fight, resists half the damage, gets a damage shield, and can actually try to counterspell with a lower level slot and still succeed. A divination Wizard could portent and divine all sorts of advantages, such as knowing what spells the sorcerer could actually cast and using spells to counter that such as energy immunities. Evocation ironically isn't as flashy in this, but can still do decent damage. Notably a necromancer wizard could wear down the sorcerer with a ****load of zombies cause if you look at some theory calculations they can actually maintain a sizable force, especially if they are all equipped with crossbows. What I'm saying here is that a wizard can have a lot going on and there are a lot of types and the type of scenario really matters.
Inversely, the Sorcerer has a different set of benefits, Metamagics do really help beef up spells you cast. Heightened spell helps make the wizard much more likely to fail the save, Twinned spell can help if they say, conjure an elemental or something, Distant spell means that the sorcerer could engage at a far greater distance, which could easily play into this magic duel. And lets not forget that while the draconic and wild magic wouldn't be of much help in the scenario, the archtypes presented in Xanathars would certainly be useful. Storm Sorcerer is a counter to any sort of wave tactics, able to be more maneuverable (ignoring teleportation). Shadow Sorcerer at a high level can also gain resistance to nearly all damage, on top of the hound and strength of the grave helping both in offense and defense (and gives a reason to take that careful spell metamagic). And Divine Soul lets you access the Cleric spell list, which can grant access to serious versatility in spells that the Wizard had over you, like animate dead, etc.
Both classes have serious pros and cons, and the opening moves are crucial. The Wizard benefits from versatility and preparation, while the sorcerer has fewer options but the ones that they can do, tend to be fairly good. This is assuming that they don't just wish each other out of existence, or the wizard doesn't cast invulnerability and then just counterspells anything the sorcerer might have to actually threaten them at that point, or they don't instagib each other with power words. Basically pvp breaks down horribly at high levels and barely matters anyway, since other than maybe wizard and druid and sorcerer, all the other classes can kinda just get ****ed.
In an arena “two enter, one leaves” scenario, the sorcerer would seem to have a slight edge. In an “all time and space is our battlefield” scenario, I have to believe that the wizard would find a way to win.
Wizard/Necromancer to Sorcerer, “So you have defeated my undead army and my simulacrum. Let the battle begin!”
Assuming some kind of arena duel.....
The ability to quicken spells gives the sorcerer a big advantage. Basically this becomes a counterspell fight. The wiz will counterspell the first attempt at a cast, however the Sorcerer will still be able to spam attack a cantrip as a bonus action. As a wizard I would want to consider any spell that gave a bonus action attack, such as crown of stars.
The nice spell for the Wizard is ---Feeblemind. The sorcerer would not likely have a good INT save and if this comes off game over.
BTW - this brings up a question. In your games do you allow players to know what spell is being cast before they attempt the counter spell? Or what even what level? I thought to allow an arcana check with a DC of 10 to know the spell level and dc of 15 to know the exact spell.....however this slows the game down.
As far as that style of ruling, I would have said something like dc 8 + the spells level for identifying it, or maybe like dc 6+ prof + spell level.
The thing to remember is that a Sorcerer also has counterspell, so it becomes pretty messy. This is also why I think abjuration wizard wins thanks to them being able to gamble the counterspell at a lower level, and just being a lot more durable by comparison.
There are many ways I see the Wizard winning... one of which is to use Wish to instantly get a Simulacrum which doubles everything about a Wizard except his hp... then it is a 2 vs. 1 massacre.
If the sorcerer has Subtle Spell, the wizard doesn't get to counterspell. This is a massive advantage for the sorcerer in a straight duel, and probably even gives the sorcerer a fighting chance if the wizard has time to prepare.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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