I know Paladins become oath breakers if they turn from their oath, and Warlocks can have all kinds of interplay with a patron they are antagonistic to.
But what happens if a Cleric renounces worship of their god?
I suppose a god can just reject their renunciation and impel the cleric to keep serving them. Or maybe some kinds of gods would be patient and try to win back the cleric without ever revoking their holy powers.
But it seems like there must be some consequence for when a cleric starts acting directly against their god like there is with an oath breaking Paladin.
Or go into some homebrew domain like "oracle domain" that's just you being a general spiritual worker that works with your ancestors or the like, but not with a specific god. Akin to the oathbreaker but without the evil bent.
I assume you are asking, what would you do if you were DM’ing this, because there’s nothing in RAW.
It would depend a lot on the circumstances surrounding how and why they did it, and how high level they were. I could see anything from, the god having some angel appear to the cleric and warn them to straighten up, to the cleric loses their spells and channel divinity. But there could be a lot else going on. Did they pledge themselves to another god? If they’re high level level, then the original god may be more willing to make allowances; high level clerics are harder to find.
If a cleric resounces there God for another there is no need to change anything mechanically the new God grants the same powers as the old one. Tasha's gives suggestions of changing a subclass and that might be appropriate.
It does also create a lot of potential plot hooks, the new God might demand they do a particular quest to prove their worth as a cleric of theirs (they might even have theor powers limited until they do) depending on who the old God is (and their relationship with the new God) they might try to win back the renouncing cleric or punish them for their heretical acts.
It gets much more difficult if cleric becomes an athiest as (unlike paladins) clerics have to get their power from a divine source. Under such circumstances the DM and player should discuss the future direction of the character, with the idea of changing their class, a martial based cleric might for example might find free from the constraints imposed by their god they are able to fight martially with much more freedom and become a fighter, or their anger at the Gods might turn into a barbaric rage, they might turn away from the gods to nature and become a druid and so on. If the change in class makes the players stats poor the DM could always let them find an Ioun stone or something soon after. It could also be agreed than the character loses all their powers and goes back to being a farmer or whatever and the player re-rolls a new character.
I know Paladins become oath breakers if they turn from their oath, and Warlocks can have all kinds of interplay with a patron they are antagonistic to.
But what happens if a Cleric renounces worship of their god?
I suppose a god can just reject their renunciation and impel the cleric to keep serving them. Or maybe some kinds of gods would be patient and try to win back the cleric without ever revoking their holy powers.
But it seems like there must be some consequence for when a cleric starts acting directly against their god like there is with an oath breaking Paladin.
What happens if they turn from their god? Mechanically, nothing. Narratively it depends on whether the god cares about the character actively worshipping them or not. If they don't care, nothing. If they do care, they'd lose their powers.
However that aside, I'd seriously question why someone would play a Cleric if they consider their character losing fate just like that. When you decide to play a Cleric you better prepare to find ways to stick to your faith one way or another. You don't have to be a priest for some church/temple or something, but you aren't just some random person who casually follows a deity or you wouldn't have gotten these powers in the first place. Few people believe more in the ways of that deity than you. Your faith doesn't get shaken just like that.
Also to build on what Jegpeg said, if a Cleric seriously finds themselves questioning their deity for some reason they might find themselves following another deity of that same domain so nothing would really change for them mechanically. In 5e the Cleric subclasses are all about domains, not individual deities. Individual deities are just something to flesh out your character's backstory.
You don't need to have a god at all. Perhaps your cleric turns his reverence from a god of fire to the concept of fire, the sun, warmth. I always used the assumption that cleric spells come from an intimate understanding of spiritual forces rather than being literally granted to them by a deity.
I know Paladins become oath breakers if they turn from their oath, and Warlocks can have all kinds of interplay with a patron they are antagonistic to.
But what happens if a Cleric renounces worship of their god?
I suppose a god can just reject their renunciation and impel the cleric to keep serving them. Or maybe some kinds of gods would be patient and try to win back the cleric without ever revoking their holy powers.
But it seems like there must be some consequence for when a cleric starts acting directly against their god like there is with an oath breaking Paladin.
Depends on the god. Unlike with a Warlock Patron, Clerics are dynamically powered by their deity in an ongoing fashion. If a god wants to cut a Cleric off from their divine power, they can just flip a switch and hey presto. On the other hand, it's entirely up to each deity what they desire from their clerics. You could have a god that enjoys having a contrarian cleric. It's also worth pointing out that the whole point of Cleric domains is that every deity has multiple aspects, so it's entirely possible for a Cleric to only like or dislike one specific aspect of a deity. Again, the deity may even enjoy this.
This is completely different from Warlocks, who a) permanently gain their powers and b) generally have no way to disobey the letter of their pact (a cleric specifically has to worry about the spirit/intent of their rules and don't gain permanent powers, it's all on loan), and completely different from Paladins, who are self-powered and no external entity is generally involved at all (the safest and surest way to cripple a Paladin's powers is to inflict an existential crisis on them; they're powered by self-confidence).
As a general rule, if you're a cleric of Pelor, and Pelor shows up and tells you to jump, and you say "you're not the real Pelor, you're Big Jim in a fancy hat, I can see the strings", you're probably ok. If you say "I believe you really are Pelor but you can go suck eggs, I hate jumping", you should not necessarily plan on waking up with any spell slots tomorrow morning.
Nothing. This is well substantiated in D&D fiction.
Erivis Cale turned away from Mask and still cast spells and turned undead in the books.
Dabne turned from Lolth and could still cast spells.
Liriel still could cast spells for quite a while after she turned from Lolth although she eventually ended up in Elistree's service.
Part of this is the mystery of the Gods. You never fully understand their plans. In the case of Erivs, Mask had a complicated plot to resurrect himseld. In the case of Liriel it is because Lolth did not want her turning to Elistree although she eventually did anyway. In the case of Dabne it is still a mystery (as of the latest Drizzt book) why Lolth still grants her spells and this is a consistent theme in the books.
Nothing. This is well substantiated in D&D fiction.
Erivis Cale turned away from Mask and still cast spells and turned undead in the books.
Dabne turned from Lolth and could still cast spells.
Liriel still could cast spells for quite a while after she turned from Lolth although she eventually ended up in Elistree's service.
Part of this is the mystery of the Gods. You never fully understand their plans. In the case of Erivs, Mask had a complicated plot to resurrect himseld. In the case of Liriel it is because Lolth did not want her turning to Elistree although she eventually did anyway. In the case of Dabne it is still a mystery (as of the latest Drizzt book) why Lolth still grants her spells and this is a consistent theme in the books.
What happens in books is completely irrelevant. The books are based on the game, not the other way around. A novel writer does not set rules or precedents for how the game works.
Also, everyone in a book is effectively an NPC, they don’t follow PC rules. Also, there are countless worlds that are not Forgotten Realms, so citing examples of what having the realms doesn’t mean it will work the same in Theros or Eberron or someone’s homebrew campaign.
What happens in books is completely irrelevant. The books are based on the game, not the other way around. A novel writer does not set rules or precedents for how the game works.
Also, everyone in a book is effectively an NPC, they don’t follow PC rules. Also, there are countless worlds that are not Forgotten Realms, so citing examples of what having the realms doesn’t mean it will work the same in Theros or Eberron or someone’s homebrew campaign.
Then my first word applies - "nothing" ....
..... because there is no rule that says you lose your powers if you turn away your god and on the other hand there are rules that state clerics have spell slots and channel divinity etc. So if we are going strictly by the rules as long as "cleric" is written on the top of the character sheet then you have those powers.
Clerics do not get their power from believing in their god, they get their power from their god believing in them. If a god takes away their power from a cleric, that means the god is admitting that they made a mistake.
So there's nothing RAW buuuut...if you play Descent into Avernus, they address it
Thavius Kreeg who turned away from Torm after making a pact with Zariel, can no longer cast spells
The character in question is only identified as a priest, not a cleric. As far as my games are concerned, the PCs are the only people in the entire world that have character classes and the rules for those classes only apply to them. Everyone else follows their own paths which would be unbalanced (stronger, weaker, or just too focused) for PCs.
So there's nothing RAW buuuut...if you play Descent into Avernus, they address it
Thavius Kreeg who turned away from Torm after making a pact with Zariel, can no longer cast spells
The character in question is only identified as a priest, not a cleric. As far as my games are concerned, the PCs are the only people in the entire world that have character classes and the rules for those classes only apply to them. Everyone else follows their own paths which would be unbalanced (stronger, weaker, or just too focused) for PCs.
A priest that gets spells from their god is a cleric though. If they were a wizard or sorcerer or druid or such they wouldn't lose access to their spells just like that.
As for how you do things in your games, that's completely up to you obviously but also doesn't apply to whatever is discussed in a public forum in a thread of someone asking a general question.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
So there's nothing RAW buuuut...if you play Descent into Avernus, they address it
Thavius Kreeg who turned away from Torm after making a pact with Zariel, can no longer cast spells
The character in question is only identified as a priest, not a cleric. As far as my games are concerned, the PCs are the only people in the entire world that have character classes and the rules for those classes only apply to them. Everyone else follows their own paths which would be unbalanced (stronger, weaker, or just too focused) for PCs.
A priest that gets spells from their god is a cleric though. If they were a wizard or sorcerer or druid or such they wouldn't lose access to their spells just like that.
As for how you do things in your games, that's completely up to you obviously but also doesn't apply to whatever is discussed in a public forum in a thread of someone asking a general question.
An NPC priest that gets spells from their god might not even use wisdom as their casting stat or pull their spells from the cleric list, NPCs obey the rules of the narrative, not the rules established to balance PCs. If you read through the adventure modules, you can find many examples of NPCs breaking the rules that would bind the PCs.
So there's nothing RAW buuuut...if you play Descent into Avernus, they address it
Thavius Kreeg who turned away from Torm after making a pact with Zariel, can no longer cast spells
The character in question is only identified as a priest, not a cleric. As far as my games are concerned, the PCs are the only people in the entire world that have character classes and the rules for those classes only apply to them. Everyone else follows their own paths which would be unbalanced (stronger, weaker, or just too focused) for PCs.
A priest that gets spells from their god is a cleric though. If they were a wizard or sorcerer or druid or such they wouldn't lose access to their spells just like that.
As for how you do things in your games, that's completely up to you obviously but also doesn't apply to whatever is discussed in a public forum in a thread of someone asking a general question.
An NPC priest that gets spells from their god might not even use wisdom as their casting stat or pull their spells from the cleric list, NPCs obey the rules of the narrative, not the rules established to balance PCs. If you read through the adventure modules, you can find many examples of NPCs breaking the rules that would bind the PCs.
It doesn't matter what they use or how else they work mechanically. They get spells from their god. They are a cleric.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
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I know Paladins become oath breakers if they turn from their oath, and Warlocks can have all kinds of interplay with a patron they are antagonistic to.
But what happens if a Cleric renounces worship of their god?
I suppose a god can just reject their renunciation and impel the cleric to keep serving them. Or maybe some kinds of gods would be patient and try to win back the cleric without ever revoking their holy powers.
But it seems like there must be some consequence for when a cleric starts acting directly against their god like there is with an oath breaking Paladin.
Lose your powers.
Or go into some homebrew domain like "oracle domain" that's just you being a general spiritual worker that works with your ancestors or the like, but not with a specific god. Akin to the oathbreaker but without the evil bent.
Er ek geng, þat er í þeim skóm er ek valda.
UwU
Buying the physical books does not entitle you to free digital versions.
I assume you are asking, what would you do if you were DM’ing this, because there’s nothing in RAW.
It would depend a lot on the circumstances surrounding how and why they did it, and how high level they were. I could see anything from, the god having some angel appear to the cleric and warn them to straighten up, to the cleric loses their spells and channel divinity.
But there could be a lot else going on. Did they pledge themselves to another god? If they’re high level level, then the original god may be more willing to make allowances; high level clerics are harder to find.
If a cleric resounces there God for another there is no need to change anything mechanically the new God grants the same powers as the old one. Tasha's gives suggestions of changing a subclass and that might be appropriate.
It does also create a lot of potential plot hooks, the new God might demand they do a particular quest to prove their worth as a cleric of theirs (they might even have theor powers limited until they do) depending on who the old God is (and their relationship with the new God) they might try to win back the renouncing cleric or punish them for their heretical acts.
It gets much more difficult if cleric becomes an athiest as (unlike paladins) clerics have to get their power from a divine source. Under such circumstances the DM and player should discuss the future direction of the character, with the idea of changing their class, a martial based cleric might for example might find free from the constraints imposed by their god they are able to fight martially with much more freedom and become a fighter, or their anger at the Gods might turn into a barbaric rage, they might turn away from the gods to nature and become a druid and so on. If the change in class makes the players stats poor the DM could always let them find an Ioun stone or something soon after. It could also be agreed than the character loses all their powers and goes back to being a farmer or whatever and the player re-rolls a new character.
Best consult a higher power, the DM.
What happens if they turn from their god? Mechanically, nothing. Narratively it depends on whether the god cares about the character actively worshipping them or not. If they don't care, nothing. If they do care, they'd lose their powers.
However that aside, I'd seriously question why someone would play a Cleric if they consider their character losing fate just like that. When you decide to play a Cleric you better prepare to find ways to stick to your faith one way or another. You don't have to be a priest for some church/temple or something, but you aren't just some random person who casually follows a deity or you wouldn't have gotten these powers in the first place. Few people believe more in the ways of that deity than you. Your faith doesn't get shaken just like that.
Also to build on what Jegpeg said, if a Cleric seriously finds themselves questioning their deity for some reason they might find themselves following another deity of that same domain so nothing would really change for them mechanically. In 5e the Cleric subclasses are all about domains, not individual deities. Individual deities are just something to flesh out your character's backstory.
Edit: so many grammar mistakes..
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
You don't need to have a god at all. Perhaps your cleric turns his reverence from a god of fire to the concept of fire, the sun, warmth. I always used the assumption that cleric spells come from an intimate understanding of spiritual forces rather than being literally granted to them by a deity.
Depends on the god. Unlike with a Warlock Patron, Clerics are dynamically powered by their deity in an ongoing fashion. If a god wants to cut a Cleric off from their divine power, they can just flip a switch and hey presto. On the other hand, it's entirely up to each deity what they desire from their clerics. You could have a god that enjoys having a contrarian cleric. It's also worth pointing out that the whole point of Cleric domains is that every deity has multiple aspects, so it's entirely possible for a Cleric to only like or dislike one specific aspect of a deity. Again, the deity may even enjoy this.
This is completely different from Warlocks, who a) permanently gain their powers and b) generally have no way to disobey the letter of their pact (a cleric specifically has to worry about the spirit/intent of their rules and don't gain permanent powers, it's all on loan), and completely different from Paladins, who are self-powered and no external entity is generally involved at all (the safest and surest way to cripple a Paladin's powers is to inflict an existential crisis on them; they're powered by self-confidence).
As a general rule, if you're a cleric of Pelor, and Pelor shows up and tells you to jump, and you say "you're not the real Pelor, you're Big Jim in a fancy hat, I can see the strings", you're probably ok. If you say "I believe you really are Pelor but you can go suck eggs, I hate jumping", you should not necessarily plan on waking up with any spell slots tomorrow morning.
Nothing. This is well substantiated in D&D fiction.
Erivis Cale turned away from Mask and still cast spells and turned undead in the books.
Dabne turned from Lolth and could still cast spells.
Liriel still could cast spells for quite a while after she turned from Lolth although she eventually ended up in Elistree's service.
Part of this is the mystery of the Gods. You never fully understand their plans. In the case of Erivs, Mask had a complicated plot to resurrect himseld. In the case of Liriel it is because Lolth did not want her turning to Elistree although she eventually did anyway. In the case of Dabne it is still a mystery (as of the latest Drizzt book) why Lolth still grants her spells and this is a consistent theme in the books.
What happens in books is completely irrelevant. The books are based on the game, not the other way around. A novel writer does not set rules or precedents for how the game works.
Also, everyone in a book is effectively an NPC, they don’t follow PC rules. Also, there are countless worlds that are not Forgotten Realms, so citing examples of what having the realms doesn’t mean it will work the same in Theros or Eberron or someone’s homebrew campaign.
Then my first word applies - "nothing" ....
..... because there is no rule that says you lose your powers if you turn away your god and on the other hand there are rules that state clerics have spell slots and channel divinity etc. So if we are going strictly by the rules as long as "cleric" is written on the top of the character sheet then you have those powers.
Clerics do not get their power from believing in their god, they get their power from their god believing in them. If a god takes away their power from a cleric, that means the god is admitting that they made a mistake.
Which is perfectly fine since gods in DnD aren't considered completely infallible.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
They aren't infallible, but they usually want to appear to be, often letting a mistake continue rather than admit they made one.
Entirely depends on the god and what the person they granted powers is up to, really.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
So there's nothing RAW buuuut...if you play Descent into Avernus, they address it
Thavius Kreeg who turned away from Torm after making a pact with Zariel, can no longer cast spells
The character in question is only identified as a priest, not a cleric. As far as my games are concerned, the PCs are the only people in the entire world that have character classes and the rules for those classes only apply to them. Everyone else follows their own paths which would be unbalanced (stronger, weaker, or just too focused) for PCs.
A priest that gets spells from their god is a cleric though. If they were a wizard or sorcerer or druid or such they wouldn't lose access to their spells just like that.
As for how you do things in your games, that's completely up to you obviously but also doesn't apply to whatever is discussed in a public forum in a thread of someone asking a general question.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
An NPC priest that gets spells from their god might not even use wisdom as their casting stat or pull their spells from the cleric list, NPCs obey the rules of the narrative, not the rules established to balance PCs. If you read through the adventure modules, you can find many examples of NPCs breaking the rules that would bind the PCs.
It doesn't matter what they use or how else they work mechanically. They get spells from their god. They are a cleric.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...