So searching for secret doors and hidden traps can use Passive Investigation (Intelligence) or Passive Perception (Wisdom) depending on the trap. My GM for example has started using both lately since he read about traps in Zanthar's Guide to Everything. Some traps even before that might have a passive perception to spot and a passive investigation to solve, like a trip wire, which you have a hard time to see but can easily step over. On the other hand sometimes passive perception to notice one tile is raised hints at finding a trap but an passive investigation of an area also reveals the hidden traps.
With that it mind, an option to display Passive Investigation (Intelligence) next to Passive Perception (Wisdom) would be useful to many people. It might be beneficial to have a tap in the corner to switch between on or the other or show both.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
While I am all for improvements, I would not personally feel the need for this, to be honest. Passive perception can be used in any number of situations, and therefore having the value always there for a quick reference at-a-glance is indeed useful.
Considering, though, that passive versions of other skills have a lesser impact on the game, and that the calculation is a pretty easy one when they come into play (10+skill bonus) their presence as a separate version of the "passive perception" slot seems redundant (not saying it should not be implemented ever, just giving my opinion on why it would not be necessary to me). Also, I feel that Investigation as presented in your examples is dependent from the Passive Perception result, as, if the character is not made aware of a trap by their baseline capability of noticing things without specifically looking out for them, there's no way (IMHO) they could solve them without actively trying to solve them, while if they are noticed, they can either know how to solve the trap (passive investigation) or need an active try (normal investigation check).
I have tried all week to passively fix my motorbike; it still isn't working! (True story. Hopefully my mate will be actively investigating the problem later.)
If you changed the word "Investigation" to "Inspiration", then maybe it would make sense. Passive, in the 5th edition sense, seems to imply something that you are doing subconsciously, all the time - like listening, looking, breathing, being sarcastic (maybe just me on that one), being unbearably handsome (Maybe everybody but me on that one.), digesting food, thinking about 'the ladies' (I know I'm not alone here!), sweating.... (this one is used as a passive stealth vs creatures with good olfactory senses.)
Stepping over a trip wire without realising it's there? I can accept that as a passive thing, much like changing gear in a car, with experience it just seems to happen. But disarming that same trap? That surely has to be a conscious decision.
Regardless of how many politicians/directors/lecherous old men (Or women, Reg!) claim otherwise in court. :)
Semantics? Maybe. But how many arguments are there over RAW/RAI?
To quote the same film "A lot!"
Curing leprosy may be a passive thing, I'm not sure. Certainly something a person might do without so much as a "by-your-leave."
Stepping over a trip wire without realising it's there? I can accept that as a passive thing, much like changing gear in a car, with experience it just seems to happen. But disarming that same trap? That surely has to be a conscious decision.
I have to correct you here (the horror!, I know): the way Investigation works (and the way it should be used, I'd say) in the case of traps (or anything else), is not to actually disarm a trap, but to know/understand how to do so. There is no specific rule after that (that I am aware of, at least) but I'd have the player do the following: was Investigation high enough (either as passive or active check) to grant understanding of the trap functioning? Normal Dexterity (sleight of hands [yeah, I still use the 3.x version of SoH]/thieve's tool); on the contrary, the check failed (or the player decided not to ask if they understood the trap and their passive Investigation is not high enough to grant that)? Dexterity (sleight of hands/thieve's tool) with disadvantage I could probably even go as far as granting advantage to the check if there was a willing previous active Investigation check made, regardless of passive investigation already allowing understanding or not.
But then again I like complicating the rules in favor of more realistic (based on my undoubtedly deviated logic)/dramatic/uncertain/effed-up situations...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
So passive investigation is when you assume you know the answer, without really giving it much thought. I see what you are doing - you are saying that this is exactly what happened with my reply! How dare you! Your subtle barbs are just too much, Vizzini. I thought I detected a hint of the Sicilian in your accent. But I am still smiling because I also am not left handed!
But OK, I like that explanation. Passive Investigation is still an amusing misnomer, but as D&D jargon, it kinda makes sense.
I would love to be a fly on the wall when the party rogue rolls a 20 for disarm traps (Having passively identified the mechanics of it incorrectly) and you tell him "You expertly switch the gold skull on the pedestal with the bag of iron filings, having accurately judged the weight to within 1 gram. Your cute elven apprentice is looking at you with new respect. Tossing the newly acquired artifact nonchalantly in the air, you step off the raised dais.....and out of the zone of suppressed magic. The skull ticks three times then explodes...Dex saves of 15 everyone.....sorry, but it seems the rogue disarmed the wrong trap!"
If passive evil was a crime, I'd have been arrested years ago!
I would love to be a fly on the wall when the party rogue rolls a 20 for disarm traps (Having passively identified the mechanics of it incorrectly) and you tell him "You expertly switch the gold skull on the pedestal with the bag of iron filings, having accurately judged the weight to within 1 gram. Your cute elven apprentice is looking at you with new respect. Tossing the newly acquired artifact nonchalantly in the air, you step off the raised dais.....and out of the zone of suppressed magic. The skull ticks three times then explodes...Dex saves of 15 everyone.....sorry, but it seems the rogue disarmed the wrong trap!"
If passive evil was a crime, I'd have been arrested years ago!
... that is brilliant
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I just want to point out that passive perception is also for hidden doors as well as the for mentioned traps which would include traps that are hidden so well you can not see them you just realize their is a hidden door because the room is smaller than it should be or a corridor ends in an odd place with out an exit. Maybe you passively realize this and twist the torch since its the only thing in the room that would open a secret door your 90% sure should be there.
On top of that your posts point out the fun of how that could be fun despite your original criticism and I recommended it be optional.
@filcatThanks for the quick reply!! You guys are on it! Super exited for this update. "next months" would be more than 2 less than 6? lol or can you give a little better range than that?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
On top of that your posts point out the fun of how that could be fun despite your original criticism and I recommended it be optional.
Not a criticism, just a difference of opinion. I like it when people disagree with my opinions. I laughed at the seeming misnomer, Lek showed a different interpretation, and my grey cells started firing off ideas. Hopefully I am smarter for the exchange of ideas, and a better (if more evil) DM for it. That is what a forum should be for.
There is another thread about what to change with sorcerers - loads of ideas, and as a DM, I am fully authorised by WoTC and SlyFlourish* to change the sorcerer class to be more in line with how my players and I want it represented at our table. I don't need to wait for an official update!
*In the LazyDM book.
As a side note, in the LazyDM he gives loads of advice in the first half and then asks other "professional" DMs what they do.
They mostly disagree with him!
I love that he has included these alternative ideas.
Thinking and exploring ideas (and strange new civilisations....) is the keystone of Roleplaying. Legend has it that penicillin was invented by accident. Sometimes being 'wrong' is better than being 'correct.'
OK, that was all way off topic, but wandering off the pre-planned is a D&D thing.
Passive - When your driving down the road your focus is typically on the cars ahead, out of nowhere you flick your attention to the police car traveling in the opposite direction. This is a passive check, it's instinct due to a continuous training or experience. A rogue is always on the look out for traps, its similar to a police car. A wizard knows of traps, but without training in traps its a disadvantage to the passive check (-5).
Active - You see on google maps that there is a speed camera ahead, now you are actively looking for the speed camera. Walking through a dungeon you see a fresh corpse, now you actively do a check. This means you roll a d20 and add your skill bonus.
Passive & Active - You are driving down your street and you know there is sometimes a police car partially obscured behind a tree. When you approach the area you are passively looking for the police car and if you don't notice it you start actively looking for the police car because you expect there might be one. If a rogue walks up to a door and does not declare to search for traps, should he get a passive check... Yes. If the passive check succeeds the DM says he finds a trap, if the passive search fails, the rogue is still entitled to search for traps only if he declares he is searching for a trap.
The passive check doesn't make the trap disappear. All the DM indicates is as you approach the door you notice a trap mechanism. Now players get to decide what to do with the trap...
5e does not describe a skill to disable a device, but when you read the thieves tools it specifically identifies the tools are used to disarm traps. Of course there is always fire ball to destroy the door and trap...
Personally I like the passive version, it allows the DM to pre-empt what might happen and allow the DM time to come up with an explanation ahead of time. This gives us more storey to the game.
So searching for secret doors and hidden traps can use Passive Investigation (Intelligence) or Passive Perception (Wisdom) depending on the trap. My GM for example has started using both lately since he read about traps in Zanthar's Guide to Everything. Some traps even before that might have a passive perception to spot and a passive investigation to solve, like a trip wire, which you have a hard time to see but can easily step over. On the other hand sometimes passive perception to notice one tile is raised hints at finding a trap but an passive investigation of an area also reveals the hidden traps.
With that it mind, an option to display Passive Investigation (Intelligence) next to Passive Perception (Wisdom) would be useful to many people. It might be beneficial to have a tap in the corner to switch between on or the other or show both.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
The character sheet revamp, which will be live in the next months, will have the Passive scores of Perception, Investigation and Insight.
While I am all for improvements, I would not personally feel the need for this, to be honest. Passive perception can be used in any number of situations, and therefore having the value always there for a quick reference at-a-glance is indeed useful.
Considering, though, that passive versions of other skills have a lesser impact on the game, and that the calculation is a pretty easy one when they come into play (10+skill bonus) their presence as a separate version of the "passive perception" slot seems redundant (not saying it should not be implemented ever, just giving my opinion on why it would not be necessary to me).
Also, I feel that Investigation as presented in your examples is dependent from the Passive Perception result, as, if the character is not made aware of a trap by their baseline capability of noticing things without specifically looking out for them, there's no way (IMHO) they could solve them without actively trying to solve them, while if they are noticed, they can either know how to solve the trap (passive investigation) or need an active try (normal investigation check).
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I have tried all week to passively fix my motorbike; it still isn't working! (True story. Hopefully my mate will be actively investigating the problem later.)
If you changed the word "Investigation" to "Inspiration", then maybe it would make sense.
Passive, in the 5th edition sense, seems to imply something that you are doing subconsciously, all the time - like listening, looking, breathing, being sarcastic (maybe just me on that one), being unbearably handsome (Maybe everybody but me on that one.), digesting food, thinking about 'the ladies' (I know I'm not alone here!), sweating.... (this one is used as a passive stealth vs creatures with good olfactory senses.)
Stepping over a trip wire without realising it's there? I can accept that as a passive thing, much like changing gear in a car, with experience it just seems to happen. But disarming that same trap? That surely has to be a conscious decision.
Regardless of how many politicians/directors/lecherous old men (Or women, Reg!) claim otherwise in court. :)
Semantics? Maybe.
But how many arguments are there over RAW/RAI?
To quote the same film "A lot!"
Curing leprosy may be a passive thing, I'm not sure. Certainly something a person might do without so much as a "by-your-leave."
Roleplaying since Runequest.
There is no specific rule after that (that I am aware of, at least) but I'd have the player do the following: was Investigation high enough (either as passive or active check) to grant understanding of the trap functioning? Normal Dexterity (sleight of hands [yeah, I still use the 3.x version of SoH]/thieve's tool); on the contrary, the check failed (or the player decided not to ask if they understood the trap and their passive Investigation is not high enough to grant that)? Dexterity (sleight of hands/thieve's tool) with disadvantage
I could probably even go as far as granting advantage to the check if there was a willing previous active Investigation check made, regardless of passive investigation already allowing understanding or not.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
@Lek "I have to correct you here" INCONCEIVABLE!
So passive investigation is when you assume you know the answer, without really giving it much thought.
I see what you are doing - you are saying that this is exactly what happened with my reply! How dare you! Your subtle barbs are just too much, Vizzini. I thought I detected a hint of the Sicilian in your accent. But I am still smiling because I also am not left handed!
But OK, I like that explanation.
Passive Investigation is still an amusing misnomer, but as D&D jargon, it kinda makes sense.
I would love to be a fly on the wall when the party rogue rolls a 20 for disarm traps (Having passively identified the mechanics of it incorrectly) and you tell him "You expertly switch the gold skull on the pedestal with the bag of iron filings, having accurately judged the weight to within 1 gram. Your cute elven apprentice is looking at you with new respect. Tossing the newly acquired artifact nonchalantly in the air, you step off the raised dais.....and out of the zone of suppressed magic. The skull ticks three times then explodes...Dex saves of 15 everyone.....sorry, but it seems the rogue disarmed the wrong trap!"
If passive evil was a crime, I'd have been arrested years ago!
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I just want to point out that passive perception is also for hidden doors as well as the for mentioned traps which would include traps that are hidden so well you can not see them you just realize their is a hidden door because the room is smaller than it should be or a corridor ends in an odd place with out an exit. Maybe you passively realize this and twist the torch since its the only thing in the room that would open a secret door your 90% sure should be there.
On top of that your posts point out the fun of how that could be fun despite your original criticism and I recommended it be optional.
@filcatThanks for the quick reply!! You guys are on it! Super exited for this update. "next months" would be more than 2 less than 6? lol or can you give a little better range than that?
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
I like it when people disagree with my opinions. I laughed at the seeming misnomer, Lek showed a different interpretation, and my grey cells started firing off ideas. Hopefully I am smarter for the exchange of ideas, and a better (if more evil) DM for it. That is what a forum should be for.
They mostly disagree with him!
I love that he has included these alternative ideas.
Thinking and exploring ideas (and strange new civilisations....) is the keystone of Roleplaying.
Legend has it that penicillin was invented by accident. Sometimes being 'wrong' is better than being 'correct.'
OK, that was all way off topic, but wandering off the pre-planned is a D&D thing.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Passive - When your driving down the road your focus is typically on the cars ahead, out of nowhere you flick your attention to the police car traveling in the opposite direction. This is a passive check, it's instinct due to a continuous training or experience. A rogue is always on the look out for traps, its similar to a police car. A wizard knows of traps, but without training in traps its a disadvantage to the passive check (-5).
Active - You see on google maps that there is a speed camera ahead, now you are actively looking for the speed camera. Walking through a dungeon you see a fresh corpse, now you actively do a check. This means you roll a d20 and add your skill bonus.
Passive & Active - You are driving down your street and you know there is sometimes a police car partially obscured behind a tree. When you approach the area you are passively looking for the police car and if you don't notice it you start actively looking for the police car because you expect there might be one. If a rogue walks up to a door and does not declare to search for traps, should he get a passive check... Yes. If the passive check succeeds the DM says he finds a trap, if the passive search fails, the rogue is still entitled to search for traps only if he declares he is searching for a trap.
The passive check doesn't make the trap disappear. All the DM indicates is as you approach the door you notice a trap mechanism. Now players get to decide what to do with the trap...
5e does not describe a skill to disable a device, but when you read the thieves tools it specifically identifies the tools are used to disarm traps. Of course there is always fire ball to destroy the door and trap...
Personally I like the passive version, it allows the DM to pre-empt what might happen and allow the DM time to come up with an explanation ahead of time. This gives us more storey to the game.