Why would a high level martial have no magic items except in the rare scenario?
You were the one pointing out that wizards might not have the magic items they want. My point is, if you limit magic items, martials are far worse off than spellcasters.
Why would a high level martial have no magic items except in the rare scenario?
You were the one pointing out that wizards might not have the magic items they want. My point is, if you limit magic items, martials are far worse off than spellcasters.
There’s a really BIG difference between a character not having all the magic items they want up to a certain gold.piece level and not having any magic items at all.
There’s a really BIG difference between a character not having all the magic items they want up to a certain gold.piece level and not having any magic items at all.
So? You were assuming a high level thief has an amulet of proof against detection and location. Also, most discussion of martials vs casters barely pays attention to magic items, it certainly isn't assuming the wizard has anything they want, though it sometimes assumes the martials have anything they want.
There’s a really BIG difference between a character not having all the magic items they want up to a certain gold.piece level and not having any magic items at all.
So? You were assuming a high level thief has an [Tooltip Not Found]. Also, most discussion of martials vs casters barely pays attention to magic items, it certainly isn't assuming the wizard has anything they want, though it sometimes assumes the martials have anything they want.
Honestly, I don’t understand your point any longer. It is literally like you are saying gibbberish.
Because you weren't making an assertion about D&D martial characters, you were making an assertion about martial characters in general. The fact that D&D fighters are stuck in the mud looking up at the god wizards isn't a feature of martial characters, it's a feature of D&D.
I didn't think I had to specify that anime martials are fine in an anime RPG (which D&D isn't), but go off. Per DMG 38, the expected flavor of D&D is Heroic Fantasy, not Wuxia.
However, to more directly answer your point: anything that fixes the martial/caster divide will either enormously gimp spellcasters, or it will result in anime-esque martial characters, because there simply aren't any other options, and your response perfectly illustrates my prior point:
The core problem with fixing the martial/caster divide is that lots of people don't want it fixed.
What makes you think I'm trying to "fix" anything? I'm okay with the gap being narrowed, but I'm not against its existence in general. Magic should be capable of more things than not-magic, that's just common sense.
This being a different framing of the martials vs casters debate is problematic, here, since it begs the question: Why would psionics only be available to melees?
There is another problem with this discussion, in that even to the extent that it has devolved into melees vs casters, it seems to be specifically melees vs wizards, with warlocks and sorcerers not even part of the discussion, let alone clerics and druids.
This being a different framing of the martials vs casters debate is problematic, here, since it begs the question: Why would psionics only be available to melees?
I don't think anyone has suggested that it would.
There is another problem with this discussion, in that even to the extent that it has devolved into melees vs casters, it seems to be specifically melees vs wizards, with warlocks and sorcerers not even part of the discussion, let alone clerics and druids.
Wizards are the casteriest of casters; if they're not a problem in the martial-caster divide, nobody is.
Also, this thread has gone completely off the rails; the reality of the martial-caster divide is not actually relevant to the psionics question.
Also, while this segway into thieves and fighters has been ammusing, I'm curious what it has to do with justifying the existance of psionics particularly in light of how some people in the last few days have argued that Psi and magic can't actually interfere with each other and it would thus come down to who won an initiative roll against the other first to see whether the psion got turned into a frog or the mage got yeeted into space.
What has Conan done that you can't currently do with a D&D Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue? Be specific.
And you could even do Robin Hood splitting the arrow; he wasn't actually in combat, so it would work like any other undefined action. The PC states what they want to have happen, and the DM calls for a roll. Whether that roll is a high/critical attack, or a Very Hard Dex/Perception check, or something else entirely is up to them.
Has Conan ever done anything clearly beyond human limits?
Well, yes, but not clearly beyond the limits of a D&D character. However, he also never faced any foes who were particularly powerful in D&D terms. If you want to find martial characters who faced off against foes on the scale of higher tier D&D monsters and defeated them through martial prowess (as opposed to trickery), you're pretty much limited to semi-divine beings.
Well, yes, but not clearly beyond the limits of a D&D character. However, he also never faced any foes who were particularly powerful in D&D terms. If you want to find martial characters who faced off against foes on the scale of higher tier D&D monsters and defeated them through martial prowess, you're pretty much limited to semi-divine beings.
I mean, there is another route - magic items. Bard was just a dude, but the Black Arrow he killed Smaug with would definitely have been a magic item in D&D terms; the same is true of the barrow-blade Merry used to soften up the Witch-King for Eowyn.
I mean, there is another route - magic items. Bard was just a dude, but the Black Arrow he killed Smaug with would definitely have been a magic item in D&D terms;
Nah. Bard is a legit example. Magic items in Tolkien are rare and unusual, of significant craftsmanship. There is absolutely zero indication in the book that that was anything other than his lucky arrow, and dude one-shotted a dragon with it and nothing else but his marksmanship.
For other Tolkien examples, I'd go looking in the Silmarillion, particularly the story of Turin, who was, AFAIR, not of any elven ancestry. (But it's been a long time.) If I were inclined to go looking for other examples, I'd try samurai and martial arts movies.
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That’s right, you get _four_ per spell level, not every spell you want, and many spells do have material components.
“martials get every magic item they need and wizards don't get any”. I challenge you to point out where I said that.
“a martial with no magic items is completely irrelevant”
Why would a high level martial have no magic items except in the rare scenario?
You were the one pointing out that wizards might not have the magic items they want. My point is, if you limit magic items, martials are far worse off than spellcasters.
There’s a really BIG difference between a character not having all the magic items they want up to a certain gold.piece level and not having any magic items at all.
So? You were assuming a high level thief has an amulet of proof against detection and location. Also, most discussion of martials vs casters barely pays attention to magic items, it certainly isn't assuming the wizard has anything they want, though it sometimes assumes the martials have anything they want.
Honestly, I don’t understand your point any longer. It is literally like you are saying gibbberish.
What _is_ your point?
I didn't think I had to specify that anime martials are fine in an anime RPG (which D&D isn't), but go off. Per DMG 38, the expected flavor of D&D is Heroic Fantasy, not Wuxia.
What makes you think I'm trying to "fix" anything? I'm okay with the gap being narrowed, but I'm not against its existence in general. Magic should be capable of more things than not-magic, that's just common sense.
This being a different framing of the martials vs casters debate is problematic, here, since it begs the question: Why would psionics only be available to melees?
There is another problem with this discussion, in that even to the extent that it has devolved into melees vs casters, it seems to be specifically melees vs wizards, with warlocks and sorcerers not even part of the discussion, let alone clerics and druids.
I don't think anyone has suggested that it would.
Wizards are the casteriest of casters; if they're not a problem in the martial-caster divide, nobody is.
Also, this thread has gone completely off the rails; the reality of the martial-caster divide is not actually relevant to the psionics question.
Conan the barbarian.
Has Conan ever done anything clearly beyond human limits?
Also, while this segway into thieves and fighters has been ammusing, I'm curious what it has to do with justifying the existance of psionics particularly in light of how some people in the last few days have argued that Psi and magic can't actually interfere with each other and it would thus come down to who won an initiative roll against the other first to see whether the psion got turned into a frog or the mage got yeeted into space.
Governor of California?
Bad acting?
Terminator from the future.
Book Conan, movie Conan, or cartoon Conan?
He did Red Sonja. Thats pretty mythical.
What has Conan done that you can't currently do with a D&D Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue? Be specific.
And you could even do Robin Hood splitting the arrow; he wasn't actually in combat, so it would work like any other undefined action. The PC states what they want to have happen, and the DM calls for a roll. Whether that roll is a high/critical attack, or a Very Hard Dex/Perception check, or something else entirely is up to them.
Multiple instances of borderline superhuman feats of strength, speed and agility throughout the novels/shortstories.
Well, yes, but not clearly beyond the limits of a D&D character. However, he also never faced any foes who were particularly powerful in D&D terms. If you want to find martial characters who faced off against foes on the scale of higher tier D&D monsters and defeated them through martial prowess (as opposed to trickery), you're pretty much limited to semi-divine beings.
Whichever you want. I'm genuinely curious.
So no specifics then?
I mean, there is another route - magic items. Bard was just a dude, but the Black Arrow he killed Smaug with would definitely have been a magic item in D&D terms; the same is true of the barrow-blade Merry used to soften up the Witch-King for Eowyn.
If this image loads, I imagine it is something a normal person really shouldn't be able to get away without repercussions.
Nah. Bard is a legit example. Magic items in Tolkien are rare and unusual, of significant craftsmanship. There is absolutely zero indication in the book that that was anything other than his lucky arrow, and dude one-shotted a dragon with it and nothing else but his marksmanship.
For other Tolkien examples, I'd go looking in the Silmarillion, particularly the story of Turin, who was, AFAIR, not of any elven ancestry. (But it's been a long time.) If I were inclined to go looking for other examples, I'd try samurai and martial arts movies.