a) You were asking how much weaker fireball, specifically would be. Or spells, generally. And insisting that without precise details, nothing is worth discussing. It is impossible to get to the details without at least working out the generalities.
b) So for that document, WotC said "Psionics are really just magic that are called psionics because reasons" That does not mean that kind of cop out treatment is actually necessary for class balance. (And that is still a strange use of 'transparency' no matter who is using it in that manner).
c) And spells against fire will still defend against psi based fire. My position, which has been consistent through this discussion, is that magic designed against a particular energy works against the non-magical energy too. Also, I am not sure that you understand that one of the objections to the Aberrant Mind as a Psion is them being able to have spells not normally associated with Psionics. I do not see Psions as being better at their specific disciplines and other things, not even being able to do at all (at least not via class abilities).
a) Okay, so let's be general then. Do you agree that if psionic powers were to lack the drawback of needing VSM components, they would need to compensate for that lack in some way? See, no specifics, just a very general question.
b) You call it a 'cop-out,' yet you have yet to point out an edition that treated them as different and didn't devolve into a balance nightmare that ultimately ended up with the entire system getting dropped / no longer supported. Nor even a non-D&D game system that mixed them well while keeping them separate in this way for that matter. Show me the bread submarine.
c-i) "Spells that defend against fire will still defend against psi-based fire" - Is that so? Dispel Magic can put out a Wall of Fire; would it put out your psi-based Fire? Counterspell can stop a Fireball; would it stop your psi-based Fire? Because the desire I've been repeatedly seeing until now has been that they wouldn't be transparent.
c-ii) "One of the objections to Aberrant Mind as a Psion is them being able to have spells not normally associated with psions" - So we ARE looking at how prior editions did Psions for inspiration then? Which is it? Can y'all make up your minds? 🤨
a) YES! I have said repeatedly that there would have to be some over all power level compensation to make up for the advantage of a lack of VSM. Other proponents of such a class have acknowledged this, too.
b) The fact that they were not well done in the past does not mean there is no point to considering them for the current edition. Based on the logic you are stating, 5e should not exist at all, since 4e was so panned.
c) You are assuming there would be a Psi-based wall of fire. Pyrokinesis, to me, is fire starting and control. I.e. you set flammable things on fire and can control their flames. However, you still need a fuel source and it is still normal fire. Which means any of the cantrips capable of extinguishing fires would be able to put out such an effect.
c-ii) It sounds like you do not even understand the genre outside of prior editions. The literary concept of mind based powers that are not a form magic exists outside of and pre-exists D&D. If you do not understand that, it definitely explains many of our communication difficulties, here.
This is another "Why won't someone think of the Beholders!" entreaty.
That's because it's a genuine issue. People really do run stock campaigns (particularly adventurer's league).
And the class would be allowed in Adventurer's League... why? Particularly if it was third party? Are adventurer's league campaigns expected to simultaneously use Eberron, Stryxhaven, Ravenloft, and all other specialized settings, too? Or even any of them, at all? As in, have no choice to say 'no?' If there is an AL Eberron campaign, is it required to only use modules written for Eberron?
Would a 3rd party product (perhaps one developed by Hasbro developers, but not under the DnD label) satisfy the pro-Psion crowd? If not, why not?
Well if developed by Hasbro, the only reason for not putting it under the DnD label would be for it to be some sort of separate game. Does "why not acceptable" really have to be explained there?
No one has said it would have to be official WotC.
We can agree Hasbro has got a lot of dead franchises, but updated a forgotten IP should be easier than starting from zero. Before the remake My Little Pony was totally fallen into the oblivion. You coud ask about Megan, the human character, and nobody would remember her. Before Michael Bay's movies Transformers was not in its best days of glory.
When I talk abou Gamma World, I imagine the IP being recycled for some future videogame. D20 Future would need a lot of work because sci-fi gets old very poorly because the technologic advances in the real life. Let's remember the oldest sci-fi franchises: Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Star Trek..
* Other option could be new psionic powers easy to be adapted to ordinary spells in the sourcebooks, with the classic V, S and M componentes. Or powers could be showed with two version, the psionis and the magic one.
Or we would need some guide ordinary spells to can be turned into psionic powers.
Would a 3rd party product (perhaps one developed by Hasbro developers, but not under the DnD label) satisfy the pro-Psion crowd? If not, why not?
Well if developed by Hasbro, the only reason for not putting it under the DnD label would be for it to be some sort of separate game. Does "why not acceptable" really have to be explained there?
No one has said it would have to be official WotC.
Once again, you are putting words in my mouth.
I didn't say "developed by Hasbro," I said "developed by Hasbro developers." They could develop it off hours.
During my unexpected vacation, I decided to work on this, to get out in the open a perspective on this thorny issue; it’s history, it’s problems and the reality of implementing it in D&D. I’m going to say some things that will likely ruffle feathers, but at the end of the day this is the simple truth based on a combination of my research, understanding of the framework mechanics in modern D&D from the perspective of both a player and a GM and how to proceed from here.
Chapter one: primordial ooze.
The first attempts at implementation of psionics as a principle mechanic (IE readily available as part of the core rules as opposed to setting specific or optional) for D&D can realistically be traced back to AD&D wherein any character could hypothetically get psionics… but the odds of it occurring at the table naturally as a part of character generation were absurdly remote; per the rules of the time a player needed a minimum of a 16 in int, wis, and/or chr with every point above that increasing the chances that they had psionics by 1% to a hypothetical maximum of 10% (assuming that you had straight 18’s at character generation on said stats); in a modern context this might appear improbable but feasible, however I would remind people that the original rules for character generation meant that attributes were determined on a roll of 3d6 per stat, meaning that the nested probability of this occurring naturally as opposed to “I totally rolled this legitimately at home you guys” were remote. After determining the relative strength of their psionics, they would then have to roll to determine the total number of powers they can hypothetically learn from attack modes, defense modes and disciplines they learn over the course of an adventure and keep in mind that you are rolling on each of these separately because why the hell should you get to decide how to build your character?
There is of course more here relating to psionic combat and attacks against non-psionics but I think you get the point.
The issue with Psionics as implemented here should be obvious to everyone: it’s incredibly, absurdly random and thus creates sudden and frankly ridiculous gaps in the relative power and ability of the various players making it harder for a GM to balance content (though to be fair early D&D even of this era wasn’t really concerned with this) and pushing some players into being functionally side kicks to those who managed the truly insane and totally legitimate roll you guys just trust me and as a result GM’s and players alike would refuse to play with it.
But hey: AD&D was like the toddler of RPGs so we can’t really hold it crapping the bed with a system against it right? And you’re right! It got a lot of things wrong so it would be inappropriate, lets move on to 2 edition which was mostly a cleaned up version of AD&D.
Chapter 3: "Advanced".
Second edition removed the Psionic class from the core rules (likely due to it’s intense balance issues) and took two stabs at doing so, with one of them being the release of the complete Psionicist handbook which created the first true psionic character as well as taking steps to try and remove some of the randomness of the first version by at least normalizing the number of powers you had… though you apparently still had to roll to determine which ones you got which could mean you either animate an object so it can function like a crappy club or alternately disintegrate an enemy.
Once again, this was deeply problematic, but a pair of creators working for TSR took one more stab at it, Giving birth to one of the most iconic D&D settings of all time: Dark sun.
Chapter 3(a): “If there's nothing wrong with me, there must be something wrong with the universe!”
So without going to deep into the Lore of the setting, psionics in dark sun was very much how I feel it should be implemented in a Product: as something that was incorporated into the design thesis from the get go and it being as important to it’s identity both for distinction from other contemporary settings (IE kara-tur, Forgotten realms, greyhawk or dragonlance) and also as a gameplay mechanic that was omnipresent within the setting; players, monsters and even plants had access to psychic powers and this combined with the downplaying of magic meant that it functioned much better. It was still problematic from a mechanical/balance standpoint but in this environment it proved that it could work.
Editors note: I appear to have mixed up the chronology of the 2 edition’s releases of the CPHB and DS; regardless, my point stands.
Chapter 4:psionics in the 3 age
I’m not going to say too much about Psionics during the years between 2000-2008 beyond the randomness having been largely abandoned (thus leading to better consistency) but the issue that they would have been the same one that was fundamental to the entire design ethos of 3/3.5: the game was designed to be exploited and abused by the sweatiest min:maxers, munchkins and rules lawyers in order to break the game as thoroughly as possible. Still, this would be baby steps towards making Psionics a credible addition to the greater game, so good job WotC!
Chapter 5:“I have a dream that all classes may be balanced!”.
To understand psionics in 4 edition and why they worked so god damn good in this era, one must understand that the entire goal of 4 was to bring order to the game even if it meant tearing down decades of established sensibilities so that balance and harmony could be restored. There were problems and issues with doing this, but in terms of establishing true gameplay equality no one else has come as close as this edition did and they did this in a way that Ironically would piss off a lot of psi-enthusiasts past, present and future:
They made every class into a caster.
True, psionics was a little different in that they didn’t have “encounter powers” per se, but the simple fact was that the power points they accrued functionally changed their at will powers into such and thus they were brought into a position where they were able to function on the same level as the other classes.
Chapter the 6th:the modern age
Psionics languished in the development for a long time after 5 launched; the company had walked back some of 4e’s more brutal changes to classes and it was known that a niche community would want psionics but the issue was that there wasn’t an especially good template for them to work with for this that would meet with the goals of having a relatively simple and intuitive set of rules that people could internalize.
The first attempt at this was the mystic which was an absolute mess; the PDF was 28 pages describing 6 sub classes that had intense balance issues that became apparent when someone was able to parse through it’s horrible writing format. While there were some who were able to appreciate some of the ideas expressed by the class the simple truth that it was non-viable due to it being too broad, lacking any real identity and just stepping on too many toes.
The second shot was during Tasha’s cauldron, wherein the writers took a step back and looked at some of the archetypes that psionics had previously been iterated as and decided to try and adapt them to the extent class and power system. Thus we gained the following:
The Psi warrior (a person utilizing telekinesis to augment their martial prowess)
The soul Knife (a focus on the “weird” aspects of psionics as well as blatantly utilizing the iconic power of a 38 year old comic-book character)
The abberant mind (a sorcerer who’s powers were triggered by exposure to psionic phenomenon)
The feats Telekinesis and Telepathic (an amusing throwback to the days of AD&D wherein psionics was something that potentially anyone could get on a super remote chance)
That’s the history of where this started and where (as of this post) the matter has ended WRT official materials, with anything else being 3 party and thus apocryphal.
Chapter 7:The realities of implementation.
The biggest issues with the implementation of psionics across most of the editions has been that it has almost without fail been something bolted on to it after the fact with mechanics that are designed to distinguish itself but little concern put forward with how these classes would actually function as part of a complete setting. Further, as time has gone on and psionics has abandoned it’s… eccentricities it has gained more and more balance and credibility.
The other end of this, is that the nominal character identity of the Psionicist (a character who draws on strength from within) has kind of become that of the Sorcerer which is class that has been fully implemented in D&D for nearly half of it’s existence and works remarkably well, thus making it harder to justify a character who does the same schtick but with mind powers (which sorcerers can also have).
On top of this, there is my persistent immutable concern with psionics being a power that is wholly removed from Magic due to the fact that we have an entire edition built without consideration for this and as such we’re looking at a Pandora's box of problems that can never and must never be opened.
So what are we to do?
The first possibility is for people to simply accept the limitations of the current system and the classes as they are. This isn’t as comforting as some people might like, but it is the most expedient way of dealing with this apparent problem.
The second and considerably more difficult possibility is to try and create a psionic class that manages to be distinct from the extent classes while still being beholden to the underlying framework of the game (IE Psionics being a kind of magic); Lia_Black has put forward an attempt at this as a class and while I’ve had some concerns with it in terms of balance, I’ve also pointed out possible solutions to those issues so despite what people may think: I ma not diametrically opposed to the idea of psionics.
So first off, if Psionics is going to be developed for 6e/one/5.5/next/whatever they want to call this years rework then it needs to be released as close to the Big 3 (PHB, DMG, MM) as possible to solidify it as a component as well as ensuring that the upcoming materials will be built with it as a consideration down the road and leave as few potential loopholes as possible.
Second, we need to take into consideration what the actual limitations on Psi would need to be and this is where things are likely to get… upsetting. As I understand it, the current asks for this system have included:
It’s own system wholly separate from the extent magic system
No components (IE somatic, material, vocal)
Free casting (IE no limitation on uses at a base level)
The ability to upcast by expending energy.
Some versatility.
Being that Psionics isn’t Magic they can not impede each other.
This is a tall order and I’m honestly not sure that people understand that the only thing that would be left to give up to balance this out is either A: the psion is extremely curtailed in terms of how often they can act due to the stark lack of resources (IE a psion of 10 level being able to empower once or twice per day and being a cantrip flinger the rest of the time) or B: The actual relative power of their abilities is starkly curtailed to the point where conventional magic users are markedly stronger at doing their thing then them.
So let’s not do all of that and instead look at what a psion could be while working around the limitations of a proper D&D system:
So from a mechanical standpoint it makes the most sense for magic to be the underlying system of mechanics for how Psionics works. The current system as it exists is pretty damn good and their simply isn’t a need to re-invent the wheel with a whole new set of mechanics and as such things that counter or mess with magic would do the same to psionics; KISS is an acronym in development for a reason.
WRT no components, this is another one that is going to need to be addressed; the character not having any of these is simply too strong and doesn’t make sense in the context of depiction’s of psychic abilities throughout D&D history or popular media, though I would stipulate that this wouldn’t be in the same manner as a more conventional caster; for a kinetic character I would include somatic (IE gesturing) so that the powers could be more easily directed and we can see this in pretty much every instance of Jean Grey (probably the most recognizable telekinetic in fiction) sticking at least one arm out towards her target. For Telepathy, the solution is to include a verbal component for most actions. This isn’t going to be a random Latin phrase or bit of gobbledegook, but rather something to the effect of directing the thoughts of the target in a way that facilitates their goal (IE “Hey their handsome” for a charm effect). Simply having this gives players better chances for RP and depth.
For Free casting and/or empowerment, this is where I can see a bit more opportunities for this to work. At it’s core I would break psionics down to two core disciplines: Telekinesis and Telepathy, with the character getting a small suite of associated powers and then the ability to spend points to empower those abilities to create abilities in excess of cantrip level spells. As players level, they would gain access to new examples of these abilities (IE creating barriers with telekinesis that go from something like a +1 to ac as a reaction all the way up to wall of force as a concentration) as well as requirements for them to activate (IE power points). This would effectively remove spell slots as a component of gameplay for Psionic characters which is a pretty significant boon.
Realistically, this is the best that could happen. I’m sure that there are a bunch of people who will come to complain about how it’s not good enough or how it doesn’t meet with their expectations or how it doesn’t address their mutants and masterminds build or gamma world or buck rogers or whatever but the reality is that Psionics has pretty much always been a mess that only became less so when it stopped trying to be wildly obtuse and more in line with the extent mechanics of the game itself.
a) Okay, so let's be general then. Do you agree that if psionic powers were to lack the drawback of needing VSM components, they would need to compensate for that lack in some way? See, no specifics, just a very general question.
No.
Or at least, not as you keep arguing. Psi powers should be balanced within their entire context, and that could include them being stronger than similar non-psi powers, while also not having the components.
b) You call it a 'cop-out,' yet you have yet to point out an edition that treated them as different and didn't devolve into a balance nightmare that ultimately ended up with the entire system getting dropped / no longer supported.
No edition of D&D has ever dropped their psi powers, whether or not they were a balance nightmare. Optional systems, especially those in a separate book, always get little support outside the book. (But 1e was still making psi monsters at least in the Fiend Folio. Probably MM2, but I don't recall for sure.)
Edit: And 2e had an entire psi-based setting.
Nor even a non-D&D game system that mixed them well while keeping them separate in this way for that matter. Show me the bread submarine.
GURPS 3e. Possibly 4e as well; I just don't remember whether they pulled spells into the psi/super power system or not. Probably they didn't, since GURPS Magic and GURPS Powers are separate books.
It's not that easy, I admit, because most games either don't have both, or have a more flexible power system than D&D spellcasting. (Which isn't hard.)
c-i) "Spells that defend against fire will still defend against psi-based fire" - Is that so? Dispel Magic can put out a Wall of Fire; would it put out your psi-based Fire? Counterspell can stop a Fireball; would it stop your psi-based Fire? Because the desire I've been repeatedly seeing until now has been that they wouldn't be transparent.
This is blatantly disingenuous. He talks about spells that defend against fire, and you bring up specifically anti-magic spells that happen to be being used against a fire spell. Absorb Elements. Fire Shield. If you're looking for generic, Wall of Force.
c-ii) "One of the objections to Aberrant Mind as a Psion is them being able to have spells not normally associated with psions" - So we ARE looking at how prior editions did Psions for inspiration then? Which is it? Can y'all make up your minds? 🤨
Psi powers are not a D&D-specific concept.
Acid Splash. Summon Aberration (A specialty of the Aberrant Mind). Etc.
Would a 3rd party product (perhaps one developed by Hasbro developers, but not under the DnD label) satisfy the pro-Psion crowd? If not, why not?
Well if developed by Hasbro, the only reason for not putting it under the DnD label would be for it to be some sort of separate game. Does "why not acceptable" really have to be explained there?
No one has said it would have to be official WotC.
Once again, you are putting words in my mouth.
I didn't say "developed by Hasbro," I said "developed by Hasbro developers." They could develop it off hours.
They could. They could pour all their free time into the project as a life work. Why you think they or anyone else would be likely to simply do such a thing, is unclear. If not DnD compatible, though, it would have nothing to do with this discussion and presumably whoever published such a thing would want to make that association obvious.
Second, we need to take into consideration what the actual limitations on Psi would need to be and this is where things are likely to get… upsetting. As I understand it, the current asks for this system have included:
It’s own system wholly separate from the extent magic system
No components (IE somatic, material, vocal)
Free casting (IE no limitation on uses at a base level)
The ability to upcast by expending energy.
Some versatility.
Being that Psionics isn’t Magic they can not impede each other.
Snipped the history only for brevity. It was a rather good summary and interesting reading.
How is "Free casting of base level abilities" materially different than cantrips?
I don't think anyone has said that magic and psionics cannot impede each other. Minimum, I have described means by which even already existing spells would be able to impede psionics. Anti-magic effects not affecting psionics does not equate to psionics being immune to magic. Plus there could and likely would be specific general anti-psi spells.
The ability of psionics to impede magic would be, to me, far more limited than the ability of magic to impede psionics.
Would a 3rd party product (perhaps one developed by Hasbro developers, but not under the DnD label) satisfy the pro-Psion crowd? If not, why not?
Well if developed by Hasbro, the only reason for not putting it under the DnD label would be for it to be some sort of separate game. Does "why not acceptable" really have to be explained there?
No one has said it would have to be official WotC.
Once again, you are putting words in my mouth.
I didn't say "developed by Hasbro," I said "developed by Hasbro developers." They could develop it off hours.
They could. They could pour all their free time into the project as a life work. Why you think they or anyone else would be likely to simply do such a thing, is unclear. If not DnD compatible, though, it would have nothing to do with this discussion and presumably whoever published such a thing would want to make that association obvious.
They probably couldn't, anyway. Non-competes and copyright clauses in their contracts are extremely likely.
Second, we need to take into consideration what the actual limitations on Psi would need to be and this is where things are likely to get… upsetting. As I understand it, the current asks for this system have included:
It’s own system wholly separate from the extent magic system
No components (IE somatic, material, vocal)
Free casting (IE no limitation on uses at a base level)
The ability to upcast by expending energy.
Some versatility.
Being that Psionics isn’t Magic they can not impede each other.
Snipped the history only for brevity. It was a rather good summary and interesting reading.
How is "Free casting of base level abilities" materially different than cantrips?
I don't think anyone has said that magic and psionics cannot impede each other. Minimum, I have described means by which even already existing spells would be able to impede psionics. Anti-magic effects not affecting psionics does not equate to psionics being immune to magic. Plus there could and likely would be specific general anti-psi spells.
The ability of psionics to impede magic would be, to me, far more limited than the ability of magic to impede psionics.
What I was doing was looking at the crux of what people were generally asking for in the most neutral way possible so that everyone (no matter which side of the divide) people were on the same page.
Psionics needs to counterable by magic and vice versa. By having them operating under the same umbrella of rules and not allowing for any real carveouts or loopholes the game maintains a clarity of rules and smoothness of gameplay.
Second, we need to take into consideration what the actual limitations on Psi would need to be and this is where things are likely to get… upsetting. As I understand it, the current asks for this system have included:
It’s own system wholly separate from the extent magic system
No components (IE somatic, material, vocal)
Free casting (IE no limitation on uses at a base level)
The ability to upcast by expending energy.
Some versatility.
Being that Psionics isn’t Magic they can not impede each other.
Borrowing Kotath's snip.
So.
1.) Yes, psychic abilities should be different from magic. People would be upset if martial combat used the spellcasting system. People would be upset if skill checks used the spellcasting system. People would be upset if social gameplay used the spellcasting system (as a core thing, rather than casting "social spells" like Charm Stooge. Why wouldn't people be upset that psychic abilities are shoehorned weirdly into the spellcasting system?
2.) Nobody wants to have to carry around a thirty-pound bag of capybara butts to be able to use their psychic abilities, no. This particular quibble seems disingenous, however. Psychic abilities do not need to be wholly undetectable. There can be signs of their use without forcing psychic character to utilize a bizarre fake law-of-Sympathy components system that has nothing to do with psychic powers and everything to do with medieval witchy superstitions and a whole lotte distinctly mid fantasy fiction.
3.) As Kotath said, this is no different than spellcasters having cantrips, or warriors being able to utilize their weapons freely without having to expend spell slots. A character's basic kit should be available to them as freely as it can be, yes.
4.) Most classes get some sort of "exertion" ability that allows them to trade limited resources for improved effects. The only one that does not is rogue. It doesn't always take the form of "upcasting", but yes. I have always favored the idea of expending Hit Die to fuel enhanced psychic abilities, in keeping the the common archetropes of psychic characters hurting themselves when they strain/push their abilities. An archetrope which has much more in common with physical overexertion than magical depletion by the way, and which reinforces the idea that a psychic character's abilities are as intrinsic to them as their arms and legs rather than being wholly separate from them as is the case with a spellcaster's magical training.
5.) ...yes? It would be nice if psychic abilities could do more than one single thing? I feel like this isn't really that outlandish an ask - a barbarian can use their arms to do all kinds of having-arms-stuff, a psychic character's abilities should generally be useful wherever it makes sense for them to be useful.
6.) I don't really care if they can impede each other or not. I know magic people want to be able to impede psychic characters without the inverse being true, and frankly I don't know as I even care about that, hypocritical as it is. Magic's whole thing in D&D is being outlandishly diverse - whatever you need done, there's a spell to do it. Simply a matter of whether you have access to that spell. You want to give spellcasters a suite of spells to ruin a psychic character's day, have at it. So long as psychic characters do not have to be spellcasters, awkwardly and unnaturally cramming their innate natural abilities into a system that does a miserable job of modeling those abilities and adds a smegton of baggage no player of a psychic character wants? Have at it.
* * *
Once again, with feeling: I'm not asking for Ohh Pee. I'm not asking for "spellcasting, but without any of the controls on spellcasting." I'm not asking for invisible unstoppable Disintegrate without a usage limit. Never have been.
What I am asking for? The ability to play (a dramatically less powerful) Tatsumaki/Terrible Tornado. A character whose primary ability is psychokinetic manipulation. It is one of my favorite character archetypes. D&D teases me with it constantly, given all the PK-adjacent/psychic things they keep doing, but it is still impossible to play a character whose primary ability is PK without extensive homebrew. And if "extensive homebrew" is on the table nothing matters anyways.
Is it really so big an ask as all that, given some of the towering tom****ery the game otherwise lets people get up to without so much as a whisper of protest?
Second, we need to take into consideration what the actual limitations on Psi would need to be and this is where things are likely to get… upsetting. As I understand it, the current asks for this system have included:
It’s own system wholly separate from the extent magic system
No components (IE somatic, material, vocal)
Free casting (IE no limitation on uses at a base level)
The ability to upcast by expending energy.
Some versatility.
Being that Psionics isn’t Magic they can not impede each other.
Snipped the history only for brevity. It was a rather good summary and interesting reading.
How is "Free casting of base level abilities" materially different than cantrips?
I don't think anyone has said that magic and psionics cannot impede each other. Minimum, I have described means by which even already existing spells would be able to impede psionics. Anti-magic effects not affecting psionics does not equate to psionics being immune to magic. Plus there could and likely would be specific general anti-psi spells.
The ability of psionics to impede magic would be, to me, far more limited than the ability of magic to impede psionics.
What I was doing was looking at the crux of what people were generally asking for in the most neutral way possible so that everyone (no matter which side of the divide) people were on the same page.
Psionics needs to counterable by magic and vice versa. By having them operating under the same umbrella of rules and not allowing for any real carveouts or loopholes the game maintains a clarity of rules and smoothness of gameplay.
Why? Can you dispel that wall of fire (to use the same example) by whacking it with a stick? How about with thieves' tools?
_Very_ limited Biofeedback (not including shapechanging, but including Resistance to Energy, Temp Hit Points, the ability to hold breath for long periods of time, feign death, etc.)
What I am asking for? The ability to play (a dramatically less powerful) Tatsumaki/Terrible Tornado. A character whose primary ability is psychokinetic manipulation. It is one of my favorite character archetypes. D&D teases me with it constantly, given all the PK-adjacent/psychic things they keep doing, but it is still impossible to play a character whose primary ability is PK without extensive homebrew. And if "extensive homebrew" is on the table nothing matters anyways.
TK is probably the most D&Dable psi archetype. It's kind of weird how little there is, compared to all the mind stuff.
Telekinesis Psychokinesis Telepathy and so on. The classic ones.
Traditionally, and very broadly, psychic abilities are split into three general buckets. As others have identified: -Psychokinesis -Telepathy -ESP/Sensing
PK is the ability to affect the material world. TP is the ability to affect minds/the Immateria ESP is knowing what physical senses alone cannot know, though this one is sometimes lumped under Telepathy.
There are many other disciplines/varieties of psychic ability, but most of them can be categorized as a subdiscipline of PK (affects the physical world) or TP (affects Immateria). When someone is looking to play a psychic character, one of these two is generally what they're looking to do.
D&D is absolutely horrible at both, by the way. Spellcasters/the spellcasting system are dogshit terrible at mimicking either form of psychic ability, focused as the spellcasting system is on discrete, once-and-done effects rather than innate abilities that can be used naturally/freely.
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Would a 3rd party product (perhaps one developed by Hasbro developers, but not under the DnD label) satisfy the pro-Psion crowd? If not, why not?
That's because it's a genuine issue. People really do run stock campaigns (particularly adventurer's league).
a) YES! I have said repeatedly that there would have to be some over all power level compensation to make up for the advantage of a lack of VSM. Other proponents of such a class have acknowledged this, too.
b) The fact that they were not well done in the past does not mean there is no point to considering them for the current edition. Based on the logic you are stating, 5e should not exist at all, since 4e was so panned.
c) You are assuming there would be a Psi-based wall of fire. Pyrokinesis, to me, is fire starting and control. I.e. you set flammable things on fire and can control their flames. However, you still need a fuel source and it is still normal fire. Which means any of the cantrips capable of extinguishing fires would be able to put out such an effect.
c-ii) It sounds like you do not even understand the genre outside of prior editions. The literary concept of mind based powers that are not a form magic exists outside of and pre-exists D&D. If you do not understand that, it definitely explains many of our communication difficulties, here.
And the class would be allowed in Adventurer's League... why? Particularly if it was third party? Are adventurer's league campaigns expected to simultaneously use Eberron, Stryxhaven, Ravenloft, and all other specialized settings, too? Or even any of them, at all? As in, have no choice to say 'no?' If there is an AL Eberron campaign, is it required to only use modules written for Eberron?
You are inventing a problem, here.
Well if developed by Hasbro, the only reason for not putting it under the DnD label would be for it to be some sort of separate game. Does "why not acceptable" really have to be explained there?
No one has said it would have to be official WotC.
We can agree Hasbro has got a lot of dead franchises, but updated a forgotten IP should be easier than starting from zero. Before the remake My Little Pony was totally fallen into the oblivion. You coud ask about Megan, the human character, and nobody would remember her. Before Michael Bay's movies Transformers was not in its best days of glory.
When I talk abou Gamma World, I imagine the IP being recycled for some future videogame. D20 Future would need a lot of work because sci-fi gets old very poorly because the technologic advances in the real life. Let's remember the oldest sci-fi franchises: Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Star Trek..
* Other option could be new psionic powers easy to be adapted to ordinary spells in the sourcebooks, with the classic V, S and M componentes. Or powers could be showed with two version, the psionis and the magic one.
Or we would need some guide ordinary spells to can be turned into psionic powers.
* How would be the psiartificer class?
Once again, you are putting words in my mouth.
I didn't say "developed by Hasbro," I said "developed by Hasbro developers." They could develop it off hours.
Psionics in 5e/one.
A treaties by Ashla_mason
During my unexpected vacation, I decided to work on this, to get out in the open a perspective on this thorny issue; it’s history, it’s problems and the reality of implementing it in D&D. I’m going to say some things that will likely ruffle feathers, but at the end of the day this is the simple truth based on a combination of my research, understanding of the framework mechanics in modern D&D from the perspective of both a player and a GM and how to proceed from here.
Chapter one: primordial ooze.
The first attempts at implementation of psionics as a principle mechanic (IE readily available as part of the core rules as opposed to setting specific or optional) for D&D can realistically be traced back to AD&D wherein any character could hypothetically get psionics… but the odds of it occurring at the table naturally as a part of character generation were absurdly remote; per the rules of the time a player needed a minimum of a 16 in int, wis, and/or chr with every point above that increasing the chances that they had psionics by 1% to a hypothetical maximum of 10% (assuming that you had straight 18’s at character generation on said stats); in a modern context this might appear improbable but feasible, however I would remind people that the original rules for character generation meant that attributes were determined on a roll of 3d6 per stat, meaning that the nested probability of this occurring naturally as opposed to “I totally rolled this legitimately at home you guys” were remote. After determining the relative strength of their psionics, they would then have to roll to determine the total number of powers they can hypothetically learn from attack modes, defense modes and disciplines they learn over the course of an adventure and keep in mind that you are rolling on each of these separately because why the hell should you get to decide how to build your character?
There is of course more here relating to psionic combat and attacks against non-psionics but I think you get the point.
The issue with Psionics as implemented here should be obvious to everyone: it’s incredibly, absurdly random and thus creates sudden and frankly ridiculous gaps in the relative power and ability of the various players making it harder for a GM to balance content (though to be fair early D&D even of this era wasn’t really concerned with this) and pushing some players into being functionally side kicks to those who managed the truly insane and totally legitimate roll you guys just trust me and as a result GM’s and players alike would refuse to play with it.
But hey: AD&D was like the toddler of RPGs so we can’t really hold it crapping the bed with a system against it right? And you’re right! It got a lot of things wrong so it would be inappropriate, lets move on to 2 edition which was mostly a cleaned up version of AD&D.
Chapter 3: "Advanced".
Second edition removed the Psionic class from the core rules (likely due to it’s intense balance issues) and took two stabs at doing so, with one of them being the release of the complete Psionicist handbook which created the first true psionic character as well as taking steps to try and remove some of the randomness of the first version by at least normalizing the number of powers you had… though you apparently still had to roll to determine which ones you got which could mean you either animate an object so it can function like a crappy club or alternately disintegrate an enemy.
Once again, this was deeply problematic, but a pair of creators working for TSR took one more stab at it, Giving birth to one of the most iconic D&D settings of all time: Dark sun.
Chapter 3(a): “If there's nothing wrong with me, there must be something wrong with the universe!”
So without going to deep into the Lore of the setting, psionics in dark sun was very much how I feel it should be implemented in a Product: as something that was incorporated into the design thesis from the get go and it being as important to it’s identity both for distinction from other contemporary settings (IE kara-tur, Forgotten realms, greyhawk or dragonlance) and also as a gameplay mechanic that was omnipresent within the setting; players, monsters and even plants had access to psychic powers and this combined with the downplaying of magic meant that it functioned much better. It was still problematic from a mechanical/balance standpoint but in this environment it proved that it could work.
Editors note: I appear to have mixed up the chronology of the 2 edition’s releases of the CPHB and DS; regardless, my point stands.
Chapter 4: psionics in the 3 age
I’m not going to say too much about Psionics during the years between 2000-2008 beyond the randomness having been largely abandoned (thus leading to better consistency) but the issue that they would have been the same one that was fundamental to the entire design ethos of 3/3.5: the game was designed to be exploited and abused by the sweatiest min:maxers, munchkins and rules lawyers in order to break the game as thoroughly as possible. Still, this would be baby steps towards making Psionics a credible addition to the greater game, so good job WotC!
Chapter 5: “I have a dream that all classes may be balanced!”.
To understand psionics in 4 edition and why they worked so god damn good in this era, one must understand that the entire goal of 4 was to bring order to the game even if it meant tearing down decades of established sensibilities so that balance and harmony could be restored. There were problems and issues with doing this, but in terms of establishing true gameplay equality no one else has come as close as this edition did and they did this in a way that Ironically would piss off a lot of psi-enthusiasts past, present and future:
They made every class into a caster.
True, psionics was a little different in that they didn’t have “encounter powers” per se, but the simple fact was that the power points they accrued functionally changed their at will powers into such and thus they were brought into a position where they were able to function on the same level as the other classes.
Chapter the 6th: the modern age
Psionics languished in the development for a long time after 5 launched; the company had walked back some of 4e’s more brutal changes to classes and it was known that a niche community would want psionics but the issue was that there wasn’t an especially good template for them to work with for this that would meet with the goals of having a relatively simple and intuitive set of rules that people could internalize.
The first attempt at this was the mystic which was an absolute mess; the PDF was 28 pages describing 6 sub classes that had intense balance issues that became apparent when someone was able to parse through it’s horrible writing format. While there were some who were able to appreciate some of the ideas expressed by the class the simple truth that it was non-viable due to it being too broad, lacking any real identity and just stepping on too many toes.
The second shot was during Tasha’s cauldron, wherein the writers took a step back and looked at some of the archetypes that psionics had previously been iterated as and decided to try and adapt them to the extent class and power system. Thus we gained the following:
That’s the history of where this started and where (as of this post) the matter has ended WRT official materials, with anything else being 3 party and thus apocryphal.
Chapter 7: The realities of implementation.
The biggest issues with the implementation of psionics across most of the editions has been that it has almost without fail been something bolted on to it after the fact with mechanics that are designed to distinguish itself but little concern put forward with how these classes would actually function as part of a complete setting. Further, as time has gone on and psionics has abandoned it’s… eccentricities it has gained more and more balance and credibility.
The other end of this, is that the nominal character identity of the Psionicist (a character who draws on strength from within) has kind of become that of the Sorcerer which is class that has been fully implemented in D&D for nearly half of it’s existence and works remarkably well, thus making it harder to justify a character who does the same schtick but with mind powers (which sorcerers can also have).
On top of this, there is my persistent immutable concern with psionics being a power that is wholly removed from Magic due to the fact that we have an entire edition built without consideration for this and as such we’re looking at a Pandora's box of problems that can never and must never be opened.
So what are we to do?
The first possibility is for people to simply accept the limitations of the current system and the classes as they are. This isn’t as comforting as some people might like, but it is the most expedient way of dealing with this apparent problem.
The second and considerably more difficult possibility is to try and create a psionic class that manages to be distinct from the extent classes while still being beholden to the underlying framework of the game (IE Psionics being a kind of magic); Lia_Black has put forward an attempt at this as a class and while I’ve had some concerns with it in terms of balance, I’ve also pointed out possible solutions to those issues so despite what people may think: I ma not diametrically opposed to the idea of psionics.
So first off, if Psionics is going to be developed for 6e/one/5.5/next/whatever they want to call this years rework then it needs to be released as close to the Big 3 (PHB, DMG, MM) as possible to solidify it as a component as well as ensuring that the upcoming materials will be built with it as a consideration down the road and leave as few potential loopholes as possible.
Second, we need to take into consideration what the actual limitations on Psi would need to be and this is where things are likely to get… upsetting. As I understand it, the current asks for this system have included:
This is a tall order and I’m honestly not sure that people understand that the only thing that would be left to give up to balance this out is either A: the psion is extremely curtailed in terms of how often they can act due to the stark lack of resources (IE a psion of 10 level being able to empower once or twice per day and being a cantrip flinger the rest of the time) or B: The actual relative power of their abilities is starkly curtailed to the point where conventional magic users are markedly stronger at doing their thing then them.
So let’s not do all of that and instead look at what a psion could be while working around the limitations of a proper D&D system:
So from a mechanical standpoint it makes the most sense for magic to be the underlying system of mechanics for how Psionics works. The current system as it exists is pretty damn good and their simply isn’t a need to re-invent the wheel with a whole new set of mechanics and as such things that counter or mess with magic would do the same to psionics; KISS is an acronym in development for a reason.
WRT no components, this is another one that is going to need to be addressed; the character not having any of these is simply too strong and doesn’t make sense in the context of depiction’s of psychic abilities throughout D&D history or popular media, though I would stipulate that this wouldn’t be in the same manner as a more conventional caster; for a kinetic character I would include somatic (IE gesturing) so that the powers could be more easily directed and we can see this in pretty much every instance of Jean Grey (probably the most recognizable telekinetic in fiction) sticking at least one arm out towards her target. For Telepathy, the solution is to include a verbal component for most actions. This isn’t going to be a random Latin phrase or bit of gobbledegook, but rather something to the effect of directing the thoughts of the target in a way that facilitates their goal (IE “Hey their handsome” for a charm effect). Simply having this gives players better chances for RP and depth.
For Free casting and/or empowerment, this is where I can see a bit more opportunities for this to work. At it’s core I would break psionics down to two core disciplines: Telekinesis and Telepathy, with the character getting a small suite of associated powers and then the ability to spend points to empower those abilities to create abilities in excess of cantrip level spells. As players level, they would gain access to new examples of these abilities (IE creating barriers with telekinesis that go from something like a +1 to ac as a reaction all the way up to wall of force as a concentration) as well as requirements for them to activate (IE power points). This would effectively remove spell slots as a component of gameplay for Psionic characters which is a pretty significant boon.
Realistically, this is the best that could happen. I’m sure that there are a bunch of people who will come to complain about how it’s not good enough or how it doesn’t meet with their expectations or how it doesn’t address their mutants and masterminds build or gamma world or buck rogers or whatever but the reality is that Psionics has pretty much always been a mess that only became less so when it stopped trying to be wildly obtuse and more in line with the extent mechanics of the game itself.
No.
Or at least, not as you keep arguing. Psi powers should be balanced within their entire context, and that could include them being stronger than similar non-psi powers, while also not having the components.
No edition of D&D has ever dropped their psi powers, whether or not they were a balance nightmare. Optional systems, especially those in a separate book, always get little support outside the book. (But 1e was still making psi monsters at least in the Fiend Folio. Probably MM2, but I don't recall for sure.)
Edit: And 2e had an entire psi-based setting.
GURPS 3e. Possibly 4e as well; I just don't remember whether they pulled spells into the psi/super power system or not. Probably they didn't, since GURPS Magic and GURPS Powers are separate books.
It's not that easy, I admit, because most games either don't have both, or have a more flexible power system than D&D spellcasting. (Which isn't hard.)
This is blatantly disingenuous. He talks about spells that defend against fire, and you bring up specifically anti-magic spells that happen to be being used against a fire spell. Absorb Elements. Fire Shield. If you're looking for generic, Wall of Force.
Psi powers are not a D&D-specific concept.
Acid Splash. Summon Aberration (A specialty of the Aberrant Mind). Etc.
They could. They could pour all their free time into the project as a life work. Why you think they or anyone else would be likely to simply do such a thing, is unclear. If not DnD compatible, though, it would have nothing to do with this discussion and presumably whoever published such a thing would want to make that association obvious.
Snipped the history only for brevity. It was a rather good summary and interesting reading.
How is "Free casting of base level abilities" materially different than cantrips?
I don't think anyone has said that magic and psionics cannot impede each other. Minimum, I have described means by which even already existing spells would be able to impede psionics. Anti-magic effects not affecting psionics does not equate to psionics being immune to magic. Plus there could and likely would be specific general anti-psi spells.
The ability of psionics to impede magic would be, to me, far more limited than the ability of magic to impede psionics.
They probably couldn't, anyway. Non-competes and copyright clauses in their contracts are extremely likely.
What I was doing was looking at the crux of what people were generally asking for in the most neutral way possible so that everyone (no matter which side of the divide) people were on the same page.
Psionics needs to counterable by magic and vice versa. By having them operating under the same umbrella of rules and not allowing for any real carveouts or loopholes the game maintains a clarity of rules and smoothness of gameplay.
Borrowing Kotath's snip.
So.
1.) Yes, psychic abilities should be different from magic. People would be upset if martial combat used the spellcasting system. People would be upset if skill checks used the spellcasting system. People would be upset if social gameplay used the spellcasting system (as a core thing, rather than casting "social spells" like Charm Stooge. Why wouldn't people be upset that psychic abilities are shoehorned weirdly into the spellcasting system?
2.) Nobody wants to have to carry around a thirty-pound bag of capybara butts to be able to use their psychic abilities, no. This particular quibble seems disingenous, however. Psychic abilities do not need to be wholly undetectable. There can be signs of their use without forcing psychic character to utilize a bizarre fake law-of-Sympathy components system that has nothing to do with psychic powers and everything to do with medieval witchy superstitions and a whole lotte distinctly mid fantasy fiction.
3.) As Kotath said, this is no different than spellcasters having cantrips, or warriors being able to utilize their weapons freely without having to expend spell slots. A character's basic kit should be available to them as freely as it can be, yes.
4.) Most classes get some sort of "exertion" ability that allows them to trade limited resources for improved effects. The only one that does not is rogue. It doesn't always take the form of "upcasting", but yes. I have always favored the idea of expending Hit Die to fuel enhanced psychic abilities, in keeping the the common archetropes of psychic characters hurting themselves when they strain/push their abilities. An archetrope which has much more in common with physical overexertion than magical depletion by the way, and which reinforces the idea that a psychic character's abilities are as intrinsic to them as their arms and legs rather than being wholly separate from them as is the case with a spellcaster's magical training.
5.) ...yes? It would be nice if psychic abilities could do more than one single thing? I feel like this isn't really that outlandish an ask - a barbarian can use their arms to do all kinds of having-arms-stuff, a psychic character's abilities should generally be useful wherever it makes sense for them to be useful.
6.) I don't really care if they can impede each other or not. I know magic people want to be able to impede psychic characters without the inverse being true, and frankly I don't know as I even care about that, hypocritical as it is. Magic's whole thing in D&D is being outlandishly diverse - whatever you need done, there's a spell to do it. Simply a matter of whether you have access to that spell. You want to give spellcasters a suite of spells to ruin a psychic character's day, have at it. So long as psychic characters do not have to be spellcasters, awkwardly and unnaturally cramming their innate natural abilities into a system that does a miserable job of modeling those abilities and adds a smegton of baggage no player of a psychic character wants? Have at it.
* * *
Once again, with feeling: I'm not asking for Ohh Pee. I'm not asking for "spellcasting, but without any of the controls on spellcasting." I'm not asking for invisible unstoppable Disintegrate without a usage limit. Never have been.
What I am asking for? The ability to play (a dramatically less powerful) Tatsumaki/Terrible Tornado. A character whose primary ability is psychokinetic manipulation. It is one of my favorite character archetypes. D&D teases me with it constantly, given all the PK-adjacent/psychic things they keep doing, but it is still impossible to play a character whose primary ability is PK without extensive homebrew. And if "extensive homebrew" is on the table nothing matters anyways.
Is it really so big an ask as all that, given some of the towering tom****ery the game otherwise lets people get up to without so much as a whisper of protest?
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What are the six or eoght base psionic powers.
Telekinesis
Psychokinesis
Telepathy
and so on. The classic ones.
Why? Can you dispel that wall of fire (to use the same example) by whacking it with a stick? How about with thieves' tools?
Those are the two big ones. (Psychokinesis and Telekinesis are the same thing by different names)
They're also broad enough that they likely need to be subdivided
The next biggest is ESP/remote sensing
Then, for some reason, teleportation. (Is it Alfred Bester's fault? Probably not, but it might be.)
Mental control of one's own body gets in there a fair amount.
Pyro/cryokinesis are often considered a subset of TK, but might also be different.
Telekinesis
Telepathy
Clairsentience (ESP, Object Reading, Danger Sense, Astral Projection, etc.)
_Very_ limited Biofeedback (not including shapechanging, but including Resistance to Energy, Temp Hit Points, the ability to hold breath for long periods of time, feign death, etc.)
TK is probably the most D&Dable psi archetype. It's kind of weird how little there is, compared to all the mind stuff.
Traditionally, and very broadly, psychic abilities are split into three general buckets. As others have identified:
-Psychokinesis
-Telepathy
-ESP/Sensing
PK is the ability to affect the material world.
TP is the ability to affect minds/the Immateria
ESP is knowing what physical senses alone cannot know, though this one is sometimes lumped under Telepathy.
There are many other disciplines/varieties of psychic ability, but most of them can be categorized as a subdiscipline of PK (affects the physical world) or TP (affects Immateria). When someone is looking to play a psychic character, one of these two is generally what they're looking to do.
D&D is absolutely horrible at both, by the way. Spellcasters/the spellcasting system are dogshit terrible at mimicking either form of psychic ability, focused as the spellcasting system is on discrete, once-and-done effects rather than innate abilities that can be used naturally/freely.
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