the only people who think everything that says "slave" is racists is a racist....no only the the usual white morality cult thought that.
Everything “slave” is not racist. However, the backstory of “civilised group took uncivilised monkeys and, in the process of making them slaves, made them better, more intelligent, and gave them a gift of civilisation they could take home to their uncivilised monkey brethren” is, quite literally a word for word recitation of arguments made to support racial-based slavery before the American Civil War and an after-the-War justification espoused by slavery apologists.
If they were just slaves, that would not necessarily be a problem - it is the regurgitation of the actual racist positions used to justify a very specific type of racial-based slavery which makes this problematic.
Okay so this puts a better perspective to their decision for me to understand. Do we know for sure this is what wizards was thinking when they did this though, or is it simply another wizards move to sell more to more people because of the "inclusiveness" stuff they are doing now that DnD is more popular than ever?
There is no indication Wizards did this intentionally - but the imagery is so obviously problematic that, even if there was no intent, Wizards was fairly negligent in allowing it to reach publication. Someone at Wizards should have looked at the sections in question and said, “wait a minute, we inadvertently created something that is going to hurt people.” That accidental racism - racism by which the system does not catch certain stereotypes that are engrained culturally - is its own form of problem, and, even if not intended, creates microaggressions which both harm individuals and reinforce the views of folk who are actively racist.
I also think the “Wizards is inclusive only because of sales” argument is overblown. You look at who played D&D in the 80s and 90s and a lot of those folks were individuals on the fringe of society who used D&D as escapism for a more inclusive world - those are the very people who make D&D now, being old enough to have careers with Wizards. Read interviews with WotC staff and you will see a lot of “I was in a marginalised group and D&D helped me as a kid” statements, lending credibility to a genuine desire among WotC staff to make a more inclusive game for inclusivity’s sake, not solely profits.
Did anyone else notice the Hadozee can only glide “above the ground” and not above water or a building or something?
While probably not intended, the second definition of ground (an area of land or sea used for a specified purpose.) applies . The specified purpose being the Hazodee landing zone.
you could even have a "landing ground" as a noun on the side of a ship or whatever. I assume that is what most dms and players will stick with.
The nerf was heavy handed. The original Yazirian race had a 10 meter drop and 2 to 1 glide on 1g planets. The trait was useless in space. The advantage was that in SF, there were a lot of planets that were not 1 g and produced significant opportunities for movement.
Simics currently have a 2-1 ratio. The nerf makes the Hadozee a less desirable race from any practical standpoint. I think adding a 10 ft drop requirement or reducing the 5 to 1 ratio might have been appropriate but doing both makes the Simic the better choice. Especially since both have considerable similarities.
so when Chinese take North Koreans and sell them into sex slavery that is racist? The trans-Saharan trade, the Anatolia? you know St Patrick was a former slave. if its not racist to think "black" every time someone says "slave" then why do you only think and reference "People of Color"? which only took place during few hundred years of history saying its "problematic" ignoring thousands of years of history going all the way back to biblical times. Slavery was a part of Mesopotamia. in it was in the Epic of Gilgamesh. I suppose the story of Moses is racist and references US slavery/plantation practices? mind you the few hundred years that always gets thought of actually brought the end to the wide spread practice. well in the western world anyway. where stronger nations and people enslaved weaker and less advanced people. Barbary pirates, the reason we have the Marine Corp in the USA. They were attacking Merchant ships and taking American citizens and Europeans to sell into the Ottoman slave traders. just to name a few references that never get brought up. so I fail to see where a narrow understanding of history and a topic, and professing a very narrow ignorant view point by saying oh that's racist when race didn't ever play a roll in broad practice of slavery, it didn't play a roll in Plantations until the practice ended. The Irish were the first people to be enslaved and used on plantations in Scotland by the English which is were the practice carried over to the US.
Reading a thread before posting on it is generally a good idea. No one is saying that the simple inclusion of slavery is the problem - nor is Wizards, who included a slavery in MMM. The problem was the application to a monkey race a number of very, very specific stereotypes associated with racist slavery - taking “monkeys” out of their uncivilised area, painting their being brought into slavery as a civilising factor, etc. - all statements fairly uniquely tied to justifying American slavery.
Yeah, going purely back to the gliding elements, I'm picturing a fair number of players going sailing off at relativistic speed right off the side of their spell jammer because as I understand it the distance they could travel was governed principley by their rate of descent and given that wildspace has no floor they'd just keep accelerating until they reached the astral sea.
Really, it's amazing how much they managed to screw up in a book that is only 64 pages and I'd hadn't even addressed this point in the reactions thread.
Yeah, going purely back to the gliding elements, I'm picturing a fair number of players going sailing off at relativistic speed right off the side of their spell jammer because as I understand it the distance they could travel was governed principley by their rate of descent and given that wildspace has no floor they'd just keep accelerating until they reached the astral sea.
Really, it's amazing how much they managed to screw up in a book that is only 64 pages and I'd hadn't even addressed this point in the reactions thread.
There is no falling except in atmospheres, though. And where there is an atmosphere and a gravity well, there is normally a ground. And you are leaving from a literal space ship. Getting anywhere laterally should not be a problem.
And they are still dropping 500' every 6 seconds. That alone limits how useful would be. There is no provision at all for gliding 'up' in either version.
Strictly speaking, the rules aren't terrilbly clear on how gravity works, so you could argue that "falling" is simply continuing to accelerate forward with your glide which according to the original RAW would have only ended when you hit the ground and doesn't have an actual fixed limit on how far you can fall or how far you can travel. Thus strictly speaking the farther you fall the faster you go because all of this is being constrained into a free action that (depending on where you are falling from might very well be faster then the spell jammer which I will remind everyone travels at 100 million miles per day.
As such you could theoretically hyper accelerate yourself to the astral sea and from there stop, re-enter the system from a different position or just travel to a whole new system wherein you can repeat the process until you land somewhere.
While I feel this can be very easily abused (storm soul sorcerer comes to mind) I’m glad it was changed because now it will be used a lot more. Since most combat maps don’t have a lot of verticality meaning there’s not many situations where you would be 10ft off the ground very much.
Falling happens where there is gravity, not atmospheres. An atmosphere is not required at all.
This is a magical environment. IRL, an object the size of a sailing vessel does not exert the same gravitational pull as a planet. Again, here are the falling rules:
Falling
A floating creature that enters the air envelope of a larger body is immediately affected by the larger body’s gravity (such as that of a planet) or gravity plane (such as that of a spelljamming ship). The creature falls from where it entered the air envelope to the surface of that body, or to the gravity plane of that body, whichever is nearer. Normal damage from the fall applies if the creature hits something solid at the end of the fall. A creature or an object that falls across a gravity plane takes no damage from the fall but begins oscillating from one side of the gravity plane to the other, as described above.
Gravity has no effect outside of atmospheres. Players and DM's are not expected to have degrees in astrophysics or astronomy to play Starjammer rules.
Strictly speaking gravity has an effect no matter where you are, so unless you are caught between two gravitational fields of equal power you will be drawn towards one or the other.
the only people who think everything that says "slave" is racists is a racist....no only the the usual white morality cult thought that.
Everything “slave” is not racist. However, the backstory of “civilised group took uncivilised monkeys and, in the process of making them slaves, made them better, more intelligent, and gave them a gift of civilisation they could take home to their uncivilised monkey brethren” is, quite literally a word for word recitation of arguments made to support racial-based slavery before the American Civil War and an after-the-War justification espoused by slavery apologists.
If they were just slaves, that would not necessarily be a problem - it is the regurgitation of the actual racist positions used to justify a very specific type of racial-based slavery which makes this problematic.
Okay so this puts a better perspective to their decision for me to understand. Do we know for sure this is what wizards was thinking when they did this though, or is it simply another wizards move to sell more to more people because of the "inclusiveness" stuff they are doing now that DnD is more popular than ever?
There is no indication Wizards did this intentionally - but the imagery is so obviously problematic that, even if there was no intent, Wizards was fairly negligent in allowing it to reach publication. Someone at Wizards should have looked at the sections in question and said, “wait a minute, we inadvertently created something that is going to hurt people.” That accidental racism - racism by which the system does not catch certain stereotypes that are engrained culturally - is its own form of problem, and, even if not intended, creates microaggressions which both harm individuals and reinforce the views of folk who are actively racist.
I also think the “Wizards is inclusive only because of sales” argument is overblown. You look at who played D&D in the 80s and 90s and a lot of those folks were individuals on the fringe of society who used D&D as escapism for a more inclusive world - those are the very people who make D&D now, being old enough to have careers with Wizards. Read interviews with WotC staff and you will see a lot of “I was in a marginalised group and D&D helped me as a kid” statements, lending credibility to a genuine desire among WotC staff to make a more inclusive game for inclusivity’s sake, not solely profits.
Right on! Thank you for the response! Your perspective really helped me see this in a better light. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm still a cynical, pessimistic ass***e POS and still don't trust a corporation to act in the best interests of the population, but damn is this perspective challenging to how I naturally feel about it, and I truly appreciate it.
I can say easily that they are nowhere near being like the flying monkeys from Oz. Oz monkeys were magically enslaved by an artifact and later released.... kinda similar but then a lot of those stories are. :)
It wasn't racist. It was similar to history and some racist attitudes.
Not the same thing.
If you would take the time to read the thread, you would see why this post is incorrect. On the off chance you will not, the general consensus is that Wizards was not actively racist, but negligently racist as a result of institutionalised racism within their systems. Institutionalised racism is a form of indirect racism where the systems in place are not sufficient to weed out subconscious biases or problematic decisions by staff. For example, D&D, a product originally created by an outspoken racist whose stated racism persisted in the game for decades, releasing a product where there are not only parallels to racist attitudes, but nearly word-for-word recitation of how racists discuss a specific dark chapter in racial relations.
The institutionalised flaws that failed to catch something that is pretty darn offensive indicate a lack of individuals within Wizards with diverse cultural backgrounds or training to identify something which is so obvious it should have been caught at some stage in the multi-level review process.
I definitely think they should rework the content rather than remove it all this can be handled just like the vistani and change the art piece as well as maybe changing up the origin into something different from this like why not have them come upon a destroyed arcane study vessel that leaks a liquid that has changed the flora and fauna of the area allowing for the fruit of this land to enhance and awaken creatures whom consume it
My problem with the changes to Hadoze is that they now lack a cultural heritage. And the extremely nerfed glide, my DM rules that at the end of the horizontal movement they fall because they cannot keep gliding.
I agree without at least some movement boost the hazodee are less mechanically desirable. The feet are ok but since its not "use an object", its not a huge boon. resilience is their best feature but planning on getting hit is for limited builds. Meaning you can only expect them to be chosen for theme which there is less of. And at least some tables I expect people to try and discourage playing a bard hazodee because of connotation (possibly false, possibly real)
I agree without at least some movement boost the hazodee are less mechanically desirable. The feet are ok but since its not "use an object", its not a huge boon. resilience is their best feature but planning on getting hit is for limited builds. Meaning you can only expect them to be chosen for theme which there is less of. And at least some tables I expect people to try and discourage playing a bard hazodee because of connotation (possibly false, possibly real)
I expect to not see many in play.
The only reason to play one now is in an attempt to trigger someone or at a tabletop where people use books. They've been nerfed beyond reasonable function. If you want to glide, play a Simic.
There is no indication Wizards did this intentionally - but the imagery is so obviously problematic that, even if there was no intent, Wizards was fairly negligent in allowing it to reach publication. Someone at Wizards should have looked at the sections in question and said, “wait a minute, we inadvertently created something that is going to hurt people.” That accidental racism - racism by which the system does not catch certain stereotypes that are engrained culturally - is its own form of problem, and, even if not intended, creates microaggressions which both harm individuals and reinforce the views of folk who are actively racist.
I also think the “Wizards is inclusive only because of sales” argument is overblown. You look at who played D&D in the 80s and 90s and a lot of those folks were individuals on the fringe of society who used D&D as escapism for a more inclusive world - those are the very people who make D&D now, being old enough to have careers with Wizards. Read interviews with WotC staff and you will see a lot of “I was in a marginalised group and D&D helped me as a kid” statements, lending credibility to a genuine desire among WotC staff to make a more inclusive game for inclusivity’s sake, not solely profits.
While probably not intended, the second definition of ground (an area of land or sea used for a specified purpose.) applies . The specified purpose being the Hazodee landing zone.
you could even have a "landing ground" as a noun on the side of a ship or whatever. I assume that is what most dms and players will stick with.
The nerf was heavy handed. The original Yazirian race had a 10 meter drop and 2 to 1 glide on 1g planets. The trait was useless in space. The advantage was that in SF, there were a lot of planets that were not 1 g and produced significant opportunities for movement.
Simics currently have a 2-1 ratio. The nerf makes the Hadozee a less desirable race from any practical standpoint. I think adding a 10 ft drop requirement or reducing the 5 to 1 ratio might have been appropriate but doing both makes the Simic the better choice. Especially since both have considerable similarities.
They didn't think this whole release very well it seems... in so many ways.
Reading a thread before posting on it is generally a good idea. No one is saying that the simple inclusion of slavery is the problem - nor is Wizards, who included a slavery in MMM. The problem was the application to a monkey race a number of very, very specific stereotypes associated with racist slavery - taking “monkeys” out of their uncivilised area, painting their being brought into slavery as a civilising factor, etc. - all statements fairly uniquely tied to justifying American slavery.
Yeah, going purely back to the gliding elements, I'm picturing a fair number of players going sailing off at relativistic speed right off the side of their spell jammer because as I understand it the distance they could travel was governed principley by their rate of descent and given that wildspace has no floor they'd just keep accelerating until they reached the astral sea.
Really, it's amazing how much they managed to screw up in a book that is only 64 pages and I'd hadn't even addressed this point in the reactions thread.
Strictly speaking, the rules aren't terrilbly clear on how gravity works, so you could argue that "falling" is simply continuing to accelerate forward with your glide which according to the original RAW would have only ended when you hit the ground and doesn't have an actual fixed limit on how far you can fall or how far you can travel. Thus strictly speaking the farther you fall the faster you go because all of this is being constrained into a free action that (depending on where you are falling from might very well be faster then the spell jammer which I will remind everyone travels at 100 million miles per day.
As such you could theoretically hyper accelerate yourself to the astral sea and from there stop, re-enter the system from a different position or just travel to a whole new system wherein you can repeat the process until you land somewhere.
Falling happens where there is gravity, not atmospheres. An atmosphere is not required at all.
While I feel this can be very easily abused (storm soul sorcerer comes to mind) I’m glad it was changed because now it will be used a lot more. Since most combat maps don’t have a lot of verticality meaning there’s not many situations where you would be 10ft off the ground very much.
You do realize Simic can and have been doing this for some time, right?
Strictly speaking gravity has an effect no matter where you are, so unless you are caught between two gravitational fields of equal power you will be drawn towards one or the other.
Right on! Thank you for the response! Your perspective really helped me see this in a better light. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm still a cynical, pessimistic ass***e POS and still don't trust a corporation to act in the best interests of the population, but damn is this perspective challenging to how I naturally feel about it, and I truly appreciate it.
I can say easily that they are nowhere near being like the flying monkeys from Oz. Oz monkeys were magically enslaved by an artifact and later released.... kinda similar but then a lot of those stories are. :)
It wasn't racist. It was similar to history and some racist attitudes.
Not the same thing.
If you would take the time to read the thread, you would see why this post is incorrect. On the off chance you will not, the general consensus is that Wizards was not actively racist, but negligently racist as a result of institutionalised racism within their systems. Institutionalised racism is a form of indirect racism where the systems in place are not sufficient to weed out subconscious biases or problematic decisions by staff. For example, D&D, a product originally created by an outspoken racist whose stated racism persisted in the game for decades, releasing a product where there are not only parallels to racist attitudes, but nearly word-for-word recitation of how racists discuss a specific dark chapter in racial relations.
The institutionalised flaws that failed to catch something that is pretty darn offensive indicate a lack of individuals within Wizards with diverse cultural backgrounds or training to identify something which is so obvious it should have been caught at some stage in the multi-level review process.
I definitely think they should rework the content rather than remove it all this can be handled just like the vistani and change the art piece as well as maybe changing up the origin into something different from this like why not have them come upon a destroyed arcane study vessel that leaks a liquid that has changed the flora and fauna of the area allowing for the fruit of this land to enhance and awaken creatures whom consume it
My problem with the changes to Hadoze is that they now lack a cultural heritage.
And the extremely nerfed glide, my DM rules that at the end of the horizontal movement they fall because they cannot keep gliding.
I agree without at least some movement boost the hazodee are less mechanically desirable. The feet are ok but since its not "use an object", its not a huge boon. resilience is their best feature but planning on getting hit is for limited builds. Meaning you can only expect them to be chosen for theme which there is less of. And at least some tables I expect people to try and discourage playing a bard hazodee because of connotation (possibly false, possibly real)
I expect to not see many in play.
The only reason to play one now is in an attempt to trigger someone or at a tabletop where people use books. They've been nerfed beyond reasonable function. If you want to glide, play a Simic.