As to your take that chain mail is just interlocking rings, I have been to medieval fairs and actually seen and felt chain mail and they are not just interlocking rings, A ring is a circle and these chain links are smaller and twisted in order to ensure there is not gaps so you will forgive me if I trust my lying eyes over wikipedia..
Most chain mail I've seen has simple rings, or possibly a mix of washers and rings; you can find plenty of images of mail (to get a closer look at the weave, search for 4 in 1 chainmail or 6 in 1 chainmail). If you ran into something with a tight weave, it was probably 6 in 1.
As to your take that chain mail is just interlocking rings, I have been to medieval fairs and actually seen and felt chain mail and they are not just interlocking rings, A ring is a circle and these chain links are smaller and twisted in order to ensure there is not gaps so you will forgive me if I trust my lying eyes over wikipedia..
As one who has made mail, if the rings are not interlocked, then they can't hold together. Depending on how you link them it can give the appearance of a weave or twist but it still a group of rings interlocked.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
First off, wikipedia is not a source that can be relied on for anything. The editors admit they lie and re edit it. The sight is absolute garbage.
I refuse to use it and if I need to research something I will go to Encyclopedia Britannica.
As to your take that chain mail is just interlocking rings, I have been to medieval fairs and actually seen and felt chain mail and they are not just interlocking rings, A ring is a circle and these chain links are smaller and twisted in order to ensure there is not gaps so you will forgive me if I trust my lying eyes over wikipedia..
Again, I don't care who called it what or when, there is a huge difference and the mail with just ringed circles interlocking is easier to make as I understand it.
There are far more details of chain mail than a role-player would ever be interested in. Ring size, shape, thickness, material, construction method, etc.
I think Splint Mail is supposed to be representative of Japanese Samurai armor which did fallk in heavy metal plates
The difference in Ring Mail and Chain mail is more than just the name. Ring mail is composed of interlocking rings. These leave gaps that can breached by piercing weapons. I think it would be called Chain back in the 1300's but I don't know, that is not the point.
1. I don't know Japanese armor, what I know there were more types, so a generic "Japanese armor" is not enough to identify one. The first results in a google search showed lamellar construction. That's not a Western European construction, so it's hard to believe the two are the same.
Typical Samarai Armor is in those splinted mail that hangs down. That is always what we assumed splint mail was by the description. I am not saying gygax was historically accurate, just that he based his armor descriptions on what was actually there.
I did not go to any website. As I said this is something I examined at a medieval Rennaissance fair that I attended and asked someone about it.
I call them twisted links because that is what it looked like to me. They were not metal rings which there was an example of as well. AS it was explained that type of chain mail armor was not as good the other but it was easier to make and cheaper. If you have ever seen the type of chain mail I am talking about it feels almost like a cloth. The links are formed into threads that are almost women together and you cannot even see through it.
Now was it made in 1300 AD or later from 1500 AD or what it was even called I don't know. I just know that the distinction has a basis in reality because I have seen both kinds at these fairs.
I know that supposedly what Gygax labeled as Full Plate Mail armor probably was not perfected until the 1500's when steel technology was much better.
I am not claiming to be an expert on this chainmail I just know I have actually seen it.
As I said in my original post my citation is the chain mail armor that I actually saw and felt at a medevial fair.
Wikiapedia is garbage. They admit that they edit, alter, delete, censor and fabricate information and their mods will purposefully ban people that post actual citations in response that are otherwise legitimate. I refuse to use the site. What I was communicating was that even a link given to me from wikipedia is not worth my time just to even click it. I have found Encyclopedia Brittanica to do a good job so I will use that
Sorry if that offends you but the wikipedia site is garbage.
One of several key sentences: "Ring mail refers to a garment with rings attached but not linked, but its past existence is highly debated."
I've held and even worn chain mail, of several different gauges, metals, ring styles, and weights. It's interlocked rings.
"Ring mail" is probably the result of attempts to portray chain mail in tapestry (where it can be quite difficult to visually convey detail like "mesh of interlocking rings"). Some people, in the modern day, will make "reproductions" that have large steel rings sewn into leather (or cloth), but there is no evidence that this is historically accurate, and there is plenty evidence that this would not be good armor at all --- thus why would soldiers and warriors, whose lives depend on armor, have made it or worn it?
some obvious (I hope) basics: A) the larger the diameter of the wire the more resistant it is to cutting/breaking. B) the smaller the individual links are the the harder it is to get a point deep enough into a link to break it. C) the more other links you fit thru a link, the tighter it (the sheet of links) holds together (& the more like woven cloth it looks and acts) D) Chainmail takes a freaking long time to make given the thousands of rings you have to make and then link.
all of this means there can be huge range of quality of chainmail from large diameter wire, large rings, loosely “woven” together to small diameter, small rings tightly “woven” together into a multilayer “fabric”. The poorer stuff is really DnD’s “ringmail” . The “medium” stuff would be your typical chain shirt or Chainmail and the high end stuff would, in DND be things like elven chain and magical chain. A good link to see some of the variety would be: https://chainmail101.com/home
effectively the better chain mails have an extra benefit in that the heavily interlocked rings and layers pull on each other in much the same way that Kevlar fibers in a ballistic armor do to limit the damage from bullets and blades.
As to your take that chain mail is just interlocking rings, I have been to medieval fairs and actually seen and felt chain mail and they are not just interlocking rings, A ring is a circle and these chain links are smaller and twisted in order to ensure there is not gaps so you will forgive me if I trust my lying eyes over wikipedia..
Most chain mail I've seen has simple rings, or possibly a mix of washers and rings; you can find plenty of images of mail (to get a closer look at the weave, search for 4 in 1 chainmail or 6 in 1 chainmail). If you ran into something with a tight weave, it was probably 6 in 1.
6 in 1 or I have seen mail shirts with different gauges of 4 in 1. think 17 ga in places and 14 near the neck. Wished I still all my SCA library.
As I said in my original post my citation is the chain mail armor that I actually saw and felt at a medevial fair.
Wikiapedia is garbage. They admit that they edit, alter, delete, censor and fabricate information and their mods will purposefully ban people that post actual citations in response that are otherwise legitimate. I refuse to use the site. What I was communicating was that even a link given to me from wikipedia is not worth my time just to even click it. I have found Encyclopedia Brittanica to do a good job so I will use that
Sorry if that offends you but the wikipedia site is garbage.
With wikipedia, other people can look at the article and follow its links. "I talked to some guy at a ren fair one time" isn't a citation, it's an anecdote. Which is a substantially less authoritative source than Wikipedia is.
What is this, my high school English class? Don't y'all know how to use Wikipedia? You ignore anything that doesn't have a citation, and you check the sources of anything that does. The plain text summary is just a guide to help you navigate the citations.
What the heck were we even talking about? Ring mail? Who has ever even used ring mail in the game?
What the heck were we even talking about? Ring mail? Who has ever even used ring mail in the game?
Very true. If you substitute a chain brigandine for studded leather and a splint brigandine for half plate and drop ring altogether then recognize that anything beyond a gambeson (padded) requires a gambeson under it you could have: gambeson - AC 11 cuir boilie (leather) AC 12 chain brigandine AC 13 chain shirt/breastplate AC 14 scale/splint brigandine AC 15 spint/banded (vertical or horizontal strips) AC 16 plate AC 18 Yes I realize there is nothing at AC 17 - that is, realistically how much better articulated plate armor is than everything else. If you feel you have to have an AC 17 armor bring back plate mail ( large plates strapped over Chainmail - the halfway house between chain and plate). This also allows you to get rid of the confusion between elven and Mithril armor eliminating elven and leaving Mithril which reduces the encumbrance, weight, strength and stealth penalties for its use.
What the heck were we even talking about? Ring mail? Who has ever even used ring mail in the game?
Very true. If you substitute a chain brigandine for studded leather and a splint brigandine for half plate and drop ring altogether then recognize that anything beyond a gambeson (padded) requires a gambeson under it you could have: gambeson - AC 11 cuir boilie (leather) AC 12 chain brigandine AC 13 chain shirt/breastplate AC 14 scale/splint brigandine AC 15 spint/banded (vertical or horizontal strips) AC 16 plate AC 18 Yes I realize there is nothing at AC 17 - that is, realistically how much better articulated plate armor is than everything else. If you feel you have to have an AC 17 armor bring back plate mail ( large plates strapped over Chainmail - the halfway house between chain and plate). This also allows you to get rid of the confusion between elven and Mithril armor eliminating elven and leaving Mithril which reduces the encumbrance, weight, strength and stealth penalties for its use.
Overall, I like your list, but what are chain brigandine and splint brigandine? Isn't splint brigandine just brigandine? Please cite real world examples.
Brigandine is generally plates of steel riveted between layers of cloth or soft leather - I called it splint brigandine to separate it from a light chain shirt sewn between two pieces of cloth or soft leather which I called a chain brigandine. In either case the cloth/leather can be seasoned with oils to make them fairly weatherproof. Similarly you could sew panels of light chain (thinner wire rings in a simple “weave” ) inside a cloak to create a layer of protection you can wear outside when not wearing armor. (Or as a non magical cloak of protection).
Brigandine is generally plates of steel riveted between layers of cloth or soft leather - I called it splint brigandine to separate it from a light chain shirt sewn between two pieces of cloth or soft leather which I called a chain brigandine. In either case the cloth/leather can be seasoned with oils to make them fairly weatherproof. Similarly you could sew panels of light chain (thinner wire rings in a simple “weave” ) inside a cloak to create a layer of protection you can wear outside when not wearing armor. (Or as a non magical cloak of protection).
In the spirit of the OP, could we simply rename armors to appropriate names that did occur?
Based on the number of times this comes up, half the complaints would be eliminated if we came up with a name for the AC12 stuff formerly known as studded leather.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I would rather see an incentive to wear a ^^%%$$##@! helmet implemented, +1 to AC/-1 to perception would not be unreasonable.
I do find it interesting that helms do exist in 5e... there are various magical items that take the form of helms. But mechanically they're just considered a part of a suit of armor, and the magical helms could just as easily be treated as a headband and function more or less the same.
I would rather see an incentive to wear a ^^%%$$##@! helmet implemented, +1 to AC/-1 to perception would not be unreasonable.
I do find it interesting that helms do exist in 5e... there are various magical items that take the form of helms. But mechanically they're just considered a part of a suit of armor, and the magical helms could just as easily be treated as a headband and function more or less the same.
IMHO, this has been an issue since AD&D and a +1 to AC in 5e is a big deal do to the math of the system. But if the AC's were adjusted downward then in general I do not see an issue with it.
One issue maybe that people may want different AC bonuses based on different types of head protection. ie leather, hard leather, steel helm, full helm (just to keep the idea simple)
Given that the game lacks robust rules for damage to individual limbs, I don't think that non-magical helmets need to have an in-game effect. D&D has always run more on action movie tropes than reality, so there's not a lot of need to be concerned about how helmets affect AC.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Most chain mail I've seen has simple rings, or possibly a mix of washers and rings; you can find plenty of images of mail (to get a closer look at the weave, search for 4 in 1 chainmail or 6 in 1 chainmail). If you ran into something with a tight weave, it was probably 6 in 1.
As one who has made mail, if the rings are not interlocked, then they can't hold together. Depending on how you link them it can give the appearance of a weave or twist but it still a group of rings interlocked.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
There are far more details of chain mail than a role-player would ever be interested in. Ring size, shape, thickness, material, construction method, etc.
Your Encyclopedia didn't even mention twisted links. https://www.britannica.com/technology/chain-mail
Could you send a picture with this twisted ring type? I'm unable to find any sample. Just pictures like this one
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/97/37/d7/9737d711b5c38513736b7d17692f222e.jpg
1. I don't know Japanese armor, what I know there were more types, so a generic "Japanese armor" is not enough to identify one. The first results in a google search showed lamellar construction. That's not a Western European construction, so it's hard to believe the two are the same.
2. It was called mail, written as maille.
Typical Samarai Armor is in those splinted mail that hangs down. That is always what we assumed splint mail was by the description. I am not saying gygax was historically accurate, just that he based his armor descriptions on what was actually there.
I did not go to any website. As I said this is something I examined at a medieval Rennaissance fair that I attended and asked someone about it.
I call them twisted links because that is what it looked like to me. They were not metal rings which there was an example of as well. AS it was explained that type of chain mail armor was not as good the other but it was easier to make and cheaper. If you have ever seen the type of chain mail I am talking about it feels almost like a cloth. The links are formed into threads that are almost women together and you cannot even see through it.
Now was it made in 1300 AD or later from 1500 AD or what it was even called I don't know. I just know that the distinction has a basis in reality because I have seen both kinds at these fairs.
I know that supposedly what Gygax labeled as Full Plate Mail armor probably was not perfected until the 1500's when steel technology was much better.
I am not claiming to be an expert on this chainmail I just know I have actually seen it.
As I said in my original post my citation is the chain mail armor that I actually saw and felt at a medevial fair.
Wikiapedia is garbage. They admit that they edit, alter, delete, censor and fabricate information and their mods will purposefully ban people that post actual citations in response that are otherwise legitimate. I refuse to use the site. What I was communicating was that even a link given to me from wikipedia is not worth my time just to even click it. I have found Encyclopedia Brittanica to do a good job so I will use that
Sorry if that offends you but the wikipedia site is garbage.
Here's a non-wikipedia link, then, that goes into some detail: https://tactilehobby.com/chain-mail-vs-ring-mail/
One of several key sentences: "Ring mail refers to a garment with rings attached but not linked, but its past existence is highly debated."
I've held and even worn chain mail, of several different gauges, metals, ring styles, and weights. It's interlocked rings.
"Ring mail" is probably the result of attempts to portray chain mail in tapestry (where it can be quite difficult to visually convey detail like "mesh of interlocking rings"). Some people, in the modern day, will make "reproductions" that have large steel rings sewn into leather (or cloth), but there is no evidence that this is historically accurate, and there is plenty evidence that this would not be good armor at all --- thus why would soldiers and warriors, whose lives depend on armor, have made it or worn it?
Hee is a Link to the process of making (6 in 1) chainmail: https://chainmail101.com/european-6-in-1
some obvious (I hope) basics:
A) the larger the diameter of the wire the more resistant it is to cutting/breaking.
B) the smaller the individual links are the the harder it is to get a point deep enough into a link to break it.
C) the more other links you fit thru a link, the tighter it (the sheet of links) holds together (& the more like woven cloth it looks and acts)
D) Chainmail takes a freaking long time to make given the thousands of rings you have to make and then link.
all of this means there can be huge range of quality of chainmail from large diameter wire, large rings, loosely “woven” together to small diameter, small rings tightly “woven” together into a multilayer “fabric”. The poorer stuff is really DnD’s “ringmail” . The “medium” stuff would be your typical chain shirt or Chainmail and the high end stuff would, in DND be things like elven chain and magical chain. A good link to see some of the variety would be: https://chainmail101.com/home
effectively the better chain mails have an extra benefit in that the heavily interlocked rings and layers pull on each other in much the same way that Kevlar fibers in a ballistic armor do to limit the damage from bullets and blades.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
6 in 1 or I have seen mail shirts with different gauges of 4 in 1. think 17 ga in places and 14 near the neck. Wished I still all my SCA library.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
With wikipedia, other people can look at the article and follow its links. "I talked to some guy at a ren fair one time" isn't a citation, it's an anecdote. Which is a substantially less authoritative source than Wikipedia is.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
What is this, my high school English class? Don't y'all know how to use Wikipedia? You ignore anything that doesn't have a citation, and you check the sources of anything that does. The plain text summary is just a guide to help you navigate the citations.
What the heck were we even talking about? Ring mail? Who has ever even used ring mail in the game?
Very true. If you substitute a chain brigandine for studded leather and a splint brigandine for half plate and drop ring altogether then recognize that anything beyond a gambeson (padded) requires a gambeson under it you could have:
gambeson - AC 11
cuir boilie (leather) AC 12
chain brigandine AC 13
chain shirt/breastplate AC 14
scale/splint brigandine AC 15
spint/banded (vertical or horizontal strips) AC 16
plate AC 18
Yes I realize there is nothing at AC 17 - that is, realistically how much better articulated plate armor is than everything else. If you feel you have to have an AC 17 armor bring back plate mail ( large plates strapped over Chainmail - the halfway house between chain and plate). This also allows you to get rid of the confusion between elven and Mithril armor eliminating elven and leaving Mithril which reduces the encumbrance, weight, strength and stealth penalties for its use.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
NPC mooks.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Overall, I like your list, but what are chain brigandine and splint brigandine? Isn't splint brigandine just brigandine? Please cite real world examples.
Brigandine is generally plates of steel riveted between layers of cloth or soft leather - I called it splint brigandine to separate it from a light chain shirt sewn between two pieces of cloth or soft leather which I called a chain brigandine. In either case the cloth/leather can be seasoned with oils to make them fairly weatherproof. Similarly you could sew panels of light chain (thinner wire rings in a simple “weave” ) inside a cloak to create a layer of protection you can wear outside when not wearing armor. (Or as a non magical cloak of protection).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Sounds good.
In the spirit of the OP, could we simply rename armors to appropriate names that did occur?
Based on the number of times this comes up, half the complaints would be eliminated if we came up with a name for the AC12 stuff formerly known as studded leather.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I would rather see an incentive to wear a ^^%%$$##@! helmet implemented, +1 to AC/-1 to perception would not be unreasonable.
Cry HAVOC! and let slip the mustelids of war...
I do find it interesting that helms do exist in 5e... there are various magical items that take the form of helms. But mechanically they're just considered a part of a suit of armor, and the magical helms could just as easily be treated as a headband and function more or less the same.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
IMHO, this has been an issue since AD&D and a +1 to AC in 5e is a big deal do to the math of the system. But if the AC's were adjusted downward then in general I do not see an issue with it.
One issue maybe that people may want different AC bonuses based on different types of head protection. ie leather, hard leather, steel helm, full helm (just to keep the idea simple)
Given that the game lacks robust rules for damage to individual limbs, I don't think that non-magical helmets need to have an in-game effect. D&D has always run more on action movie tropes than reality, so there's not a lot of need to be concerned about how helmets affect AC.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.