Again, all of this controversy started from a rumor, a rumor that still hasn’t checked out. I think that we should stop arguing until we know for sure that the rumors are true.
Griffon's Saddlebag, among others, has confirmed some stuff, and so have Kickstarter. We're out of the territory of rumors and in the territory of "probably true"
This is not true. Kickstarter has confirmed nothing other than they are part of the process and are aware of the numbers. The current status of the process was not stated nor were the numbers disclosed.
We're all in a pot and it's getting warmer but surely they wouldn't bring the water all the way up to a boil. We just heard our appointed lookout say they saw the chef turn up the heat even more but that's just a rumor. Lets do nothing; surely that will make everything better. /s
Again, I am not saying that we do nothing, I am just saying that we don’t know if this is actually the case, so we should wait to pass judgement until we know that it is true. Also, please stop attacking me for stating my opinion. And, for the record you have way to many run-on sentences going on.
Again, all of this controversy started from a rumor, a rumor that still hasn’t checked out. I think that we should stop arguing until we know for sure that the rumors are true.
Griffon's Saddlebag, among others, has confirmed some stuff, and so have Kickstarter. We're out of the territory of rumors and in the territory of "probably true"
This is not true. Kickstarter has confirmed nothing other than they are part of the process and are aware of the numbers. The current status of the process was not stated nor were the numbers disclosed.
Again, all of this controversy started from a rumor, a rumor that still hasn’t checked out. I think that we should stop arguing until we know for sure that the rumors are true.
Griffon's Saddlebag, among others, has confirmed some stuff, and so have Kickstarter. We're out of the territory of rumors and in the territory of "probably true"
This is not true. Kickstarter has confirmed nothing other than they are part of the process and are aware of the numbers. The current status of the process was not stated nor were the numbers disclosed.
Your post is simply not true. You really should cite evidence if you want to accuse others of posting false information. The fact is the director of gaming at kickstarter publicly confirmed they negotiated a better deal for kickstarter than the general rate. He did this in response to a tweet from the author of the Gizmodo article specifying the 25%/20% rate difference for kickstarter. The only thing he disputed about the gizmodo article 25/20 royalty rate difference was the implication that the 5% difference was being pocketed by kickstarter. That's way more than simply saying they are "part of the process and aware of the numbers". It's also entirely in line with the 25% normal/20% kickstarter royalty rates noted in the reported document.
The fact that you mention the "aware of the numbers" quote is particularly troubling since that only came up later in the twitter comments when the Kickstarter director was responding to a commenter who pointed out that even a 20% royalty applied to funds over 750k would cut out the majority of most successful kickstarters profit margins. The kickstarter director sure seemed to be acknowledging that the new royalty rates would be a significant problem for most successful kickstarters. Note that the commenter he was responding to was Tom Cartos, a well known artist who creates RPG maps and map making assets.
Again, all of this controversy started from a rumor, a rumor that still hasn’t checked out. I think that we should stop arguing until we know for sure that the rumors are true.
Griffon's Saddlebag, among others, has confirmed some stuff, and so have Kickstarter. We're out of the territory of rumors and in the territory of "probably true"
This is not true. Kickstarter has confirmed nothing other than they are part of the process and are aware of the numbers. The current status of the process was not stated nor were the numbers disclosed.
Your post is simply not true. You really should cite evidence if you want to accuse others of posting false information. The fact is the director of gaming at kickstarter publicly confirmed they negotiated a better deal for kickstarter than the general rate. He did this in response to a tweet from the author of the Gizmodo article specifying the 25%/20% rate difference for kickstarter. The only thing he disputed about the gizmodo article 25/20 royalty rate difference was the implication that the 5% difference was being pocketed by kickstarter. That's way more than simply saying they are "part of the process and aware of the numbers". It's also entirely in line with the 25% normal/20% kickstarter royalty rates noted in the reported document.
The fact that you mention the "aware of the numbers" quote is particularly troubling since that only came up later in the twitter comments when the Kickstarter director was responding to a commenter who pointed out that even a 20% royalty applied to funds over 750k would cut out the majority of most successful kickstarters profit margins. The kickstarter director sure seemed to be acknowledging that the new royalty rates would be a significant problem for most successful kickstarters. Note that the commenter he was responding to was Tom Cartos, a well known artist who creates RPG maps and map making assets.
The actual quote is
Kickstarter was contacted after WoTC decided to make OGL changes, so we felt the best move was to advocate for creators, which we did. Managed to get lower % plus more being discussed. No hidden benefits / no financial kickbacks for KS. This is their license, not ours, obviously.
They state that they "managed to get a lower %" They said nothing that confirms what they negotiated the % down from or too in this statement.
"Seemed to acknowledge" is not the same as "acknowledged". You believe that they acknowledged something, but none of the words that were used did so.
We're all in a pot and it's getting warmer but surely they wouldn't bring the water all the way up to a boil. We just heard our appointed lookout say they saw the chef turn up the heat even more but that's just a rumor. Lets do nothing; surely that will make everything better. /s
Again, I am not saying that we do nothing, I am just saying that we don’t know if this is actually the case, so we should wait to pass judgement until we know that it is true. Also, please stop attacking me for stating my opinion. And, for the record you have way to many run-on sentences going on.
We have quotes from the product manager from DnD-Beyond who quit on Dec 16th that everything about it is true. You are entitled to believe that the earth is flat, too. Just saying.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
We're all in a pot and it's getting warmer but surely they wouldn't bring the water all the way up to a boil. We just heard our appointed lookout say they saw the chef turn up the heat even more but that's just a rumor. Lets do nothing; surely that will make everything better. /s
Again, I am not saying that we do nothing, I am just saying that we don’t know if this is actually the case, so we should wait to pass judgement until we know that it is true. Also, please stop attacking me for stating my opinion. And, for the record you have way to many run-on sentences going on.
We have quotes from the product manager from DnD-Beyond who quit on Dec 16th that everything about it is true. You are entitled to believe that the earth is flat, too. Just saying.
Are… you… serious. So ONE person confirms the rumors, so what? And then trying to make me look like an idiot by telling me I’m entitled to believe that the goddam earth is flat.
I will believe it when I see it. In my opinion, this is all being blown out of proportion by fear and social media algorithms that promote outrage. I will wait and see what the actual, official OGL 1.1 says before getting upset. I don't consume a ton of third party content as it is. I buy some third party modules and stuff from DMsguild.com but other than that, I either run an official Adventure League module at a store or I homebrew my games. I have enjoyed Adventure Zone and Critical Role and I hope they don't kill fan created content like that. It would be idiotic since it is all free advertising for D&D. Worst case scenario, WotC shoots themselves in the foot and ruins the brand and I go back to playing 5e homebrew games (like I did with 3.5) and wait for someone with a clue to gain control of the brand or another brand to take over top spot in TTRPG. That is the beautiful thing about D&D, once you have the core rule books, as long as you have friends and an imagination, you have infinite play potential without ever having to buy another thing.
There isn't a publicly available copy of OGL 1.1 around, so we are all working on conjecture.
D&D 4th edition shot itself in the foot by not using the OGL, and D&D 6th edition would be doing the same thing if the the OGL 1.1 rumours are true.
Everybody can stay on D&D 5th edition without issue - but they might have to find a different character creator since dndbeyond will be updated to use the newer OGL.
If the rumours are true, there won't be any legal 5e character creators. All other companion apps would also cease to exist. These are issues.
Actually, Hero Lab has support for SRD 5E. I would expect it to remain as SRD 5E using OGL 1.0a
Regardless of this has been a mountain made of a molehill, there are signs of trouble in the OGL post the staff made right here. It does start to choke the life out of small 3rd party creators, even without them implementing the defacto content harvesting they already employ on the DMsGuild. The terms that have been revealed are not by any means those of an open OGL. D&D is a very popular brand of TTRPG, one of the most recognised ones aside from Pathfinder and the VtM games, but it doesn't own the mechanics.
I think the more pressing concern is that if these are the rough terms they are willing to reveal in spite of being sour, what are they not revealing? The ones laid out in the official post were enough to start 3rd party creators to start slowing creation on their content, and if the presented guidelines are kept, there will be a drought of 5e supplements in the wake of it all, not to mention barely any 6e content if any.
A company wanting to monetize what they consider to be an undermonitized venture has two options; reduce competition to be the only one to buy from, or create new customers. In this case, they would want to turn more players into DMs, but they aren't going that route. They are looking to take out their competitors, but the issue is that the "competitors" are their own passionate community. Standing and waiting to see if the proverbial pot boils us isn't what needs to be done to keep Hasbro from employing the defacto content theft they use in the DMsGuild to all creators. Making noise now is what is needed. Because THAT is something being done small scale already without people knowing about it, so it's not a stretch to see it worked into something like the new "OGL" too.
To those... enthusiastic... remaining WOTC apologists...
Consider this: this utter trash fire has now been burning in their community for nigh on two weeks at this point. Costing the company good will from the player base, loyalty from third party companies that decide to go elsewhere or strike out on their own, and money both present and future. They COULD get out in front of this situation at any time; remove the uncertainty... but they haven't... And that means they aren't for a reason. The most likely one being that they are hoping the fire will burn itself out and when they finally release an "official" version of the OGL document, they might walk one or two things back or soften language, and the battered remainder of the community will go "oh, it's not so bad". Video game companies do this same thing all the time; and let's not forget, the executive who said D&D was "under-monetized" came from Microsoft.
A company wanting to monetize what they consider to be an undermonitized venture has two options; reduce competition to be the only one to buy from, or create new customers.
Those are far from the only two options
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Here's the statement just released by Atropos, the main dev of foundry vtt: "A Preliminary Statement Regarding The OGL Controversy =================================== Hello @everyone. Over the past week our team, like many of you, have been closely following the news regarding anticipated updates to the Open Gaming License that has served the TTRPG community for the past two decades. A multitude of voices are rightfully expressing anger about the leaked 1.1 license terms. We are deeply concerned too, the terms of the draft license are wholly unacceptable to the creator community.
We have directly communicated those concerns to Wizards of the Coast. We are committed to supporting our fantastic network of content creator partners many of whom create content for D&D or other game systems using the OGL. We are determined to offer an industry-leading virtual tabletop that supports our users' most beloved game systems to the extent allowed by licensing requirements.
It is unfortunate that Wizards of the Coast has not posted an official statement. Many creators are rightfully feeling as if their livelihoods are under attack. We had wished to share a statement in response to official details posted by WOTC, but after several days of silence on the issue we feel compelled to join our team's voice to this conversation.
We hope that the strong community reaction and lack of official response imply that this dangerous path is being actively reconsidered. Until we have more clarity, it is essential for the community to continue expressing concerns to ensure the seriousness of this issue is understood by decision makers at WOTC and Hasbro. We encourage you to engage respectfully with this issue using the following resources:
- The ogl channel in this Discord server where you may discuss this topic. - The https://opendnd.games/ website which contains an open letter discussing the issue as well as links to several resources to learn more. - The #OpenDnD hashtag on Twitter and other social media platforms."
If Kickstarter negotiated a better fee for anyone. under what OGL did they negotiate it?
I would rely on the established copy write laws and never sign a OGL. For one the new OGL is being written and promoted by the only thing it protects. The company.
These leaks are unverified and unconfirmed. We don't even know if the leaks are true, guys; You shouldn't compare someone to "Darth Vader" until you're actually sure they've done something bad.
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
These leaks are unverified and unconfirmed. We don't even know if the leaks are true, guys; You shouldn't compare someone to "Darth Vader" until you're actually sure they've done something bad.
These leaks are unverified and unconfirmed. We don't even know if the leaks are true, guys; You shouldn't compare someone to "Darth Vader" until you're actually sure they've done something bad.
Exactly, thank you.
Oh, by all means: let WotC clarify the situation! Remove all doubt and uncertainty from the equation. They could do so at any time for the past two weeks or so... And they haven't. Which means their silence is deliberate. If this WAS "all just a misunderstanding": this would be the sort of PR nightmare that leads to very public firings, and much apologizing.
But somehow I shan't hold my breath for that. I'll air on the side of people who have skin in the game and are reacting accordingly.
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This is not true. Kickstarter has confirmed nothing other than they are part of the process and are aware of the numbers. The current status of the process was not stated nor were the numbers disclosed.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Again, I am not saying that we do nothing, I am just saying that we don’t know if this is actually the case, so we should wait to pass judgement until we know that it is true. Also, please stop attacking me for stating my opinion. And, for the record you have way to many run-on sentences going on.
I uses to be dndlover_2.
Thank you, glad to know someone is on my side.
I uses to be dndlover_2.
Your post is simply not true. You really should cite evidence if you want to accuse others of posting false information. The fact is the director of gaming at kickstarter publicly confirmed they negotiated a better deal for kickstarter than the general rate. He did this in response to a tweet from the author of the Gizmodo article specifying the 25%/20% rate difference for kickstarter. The only thing he disputed about the gizmodo article 25/20 royalty rate difference was the implication that the 5% difference was being pocketed by kickstarter. That's way more than simply saying they are "part of the process and aware of the numbers". It's also entirely in line with the 25% normal/20% kickstarter royalty rates noted in the reported document.
The fact that you mention the "aware of the numbers" quote is particularly troubling since that only came up later in the twitter comments when the Kickstarter director was responding to a commenter who pointed out that even a 20% royalty applied to funds over 750k would cut out the majority of most successful kickstarters profit margins. The kickstarter director sure seemed to be acknowledging that the new royalty rates would be a significant problem for most successful kickstarters. Note that the commenter he was responding to was Tom Cartos, a well known artist who creates RPG maps and map making assets.
The actual quote is
They state that they "managed to get a lower %" They said nothing that confirms what they negotiated the % down from or too in this statement.
"Seemed to acknowledge" is not the same as "acknowledged". You believe that they acknowledged something, but none of the words that were used did so.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
We have quotes from the product manager from DnD-Beyond who quit on Dec 16th that everything about it is true. You are entitled to believe that the earth is flat, too. Just saying.
This is the perfect metaphor for what's happening right now, in that it's a fabrication that feels true but isn't actually reality
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Are… you… serious. So ONE person confirms the rumors, so what? And then trying to make me look like an idiot by telling me I’m entitled to believe that the goddam earth is flat.
I uses to be dndlover_2.
I will believe it when I see it.
In my opinion, this is all being blown out of proportion by fear and social media algorithms that promote outrage. I will wait and see what the actual, official OGL 1.1 says before getting upset. I don't consume a ton of third party content as it is. I buy some third party modules and stuff from DMsguild.com but other than that, I either run an official Adventure League module at a store or I homebrew my games. I have enjoyed Adventure Zone and Critical Role and I hope they don't kill fan created content like that. It would be idiotic since it is all free advertising for D&D. Worst case scenario, WotC shoots themselves in the foot and ruins the brand and I go back to playing 5e homebrew games (like I did with 3.5) and wait for someone with a clue to gain control of the brand or another brand to take over top spot in TTRPG. That is the beautiful thing about D&D, once you have the core rule books, as long as you have friends and an imagination, you have infinite play potential without ever having to buy another thing.
OG D&D Player and DM.
I DM for hire on StartPlaying.games
Exactly [redacted]
I uses to be dndlover_2.
Actually, Hero Lab has support for SRD 5E. I would expect it to remain as SRD 5E using OGL 1.0a
Regardless of this has been a mountain made of a molehill, there are signs of trouble in the OGL post the staff made right here. It does start to choke the life out of small 3rd party creators, even without them implementing the defacto content harvesting they already employ on the DMsGuild. The terms that have been revealed are not by any means those of an open OGL. D&D is a very popular brand of TTRPG, one of the most recognised ones aside from Pathfinder and the VtM games, but it doesn't own the mechanics.
I think the more pressing concern is that if these are the rough terms they are willing to reveal in spite of being sour, what are they not revealing? The ones laid out in the official post were enough to start 3rd party creators to start slowing creation on their content, and if the presented guidelines are kept, there will be a drought of 5e supplements in the wake of it all, not to mention barely any 6e content if any.
A company wanting to monetize what they consider to be an undermonitized venture has two options; reduce competition to be the only one to buy from, or create new customers. In this case, they would want to turn more players into DMs, but they aren't going that route. They are looking to take out their competitors, but the issue is that the "competitors" are their own passionate community. Standing and waiting to see if the proverbial pot boils us isn't what needs to be done to keep Hasbro from employing the defacto content theft they use in the DMsGuild to all creators. Making noise now is what is needed. Because THAT is something being done small scale already without people knowing about it, so it's not a stretch to see it worked into something like the new "OGL" too.
To those... enthusiastic... remaining WOTC apologists...
Consider this: this utter trash fire has now been burning in their community for nigh on two weeks at this point. Costing the company good will from the player base, loyalty from third party companies that decide to go elsewhere or strike out on their own, and money both present and future. They COULD get out in front of this situation at any time; remove the uncertainty... but they haven't... And that means they aren't for a reason. The most likely one being that they are hoping the fire will burn itself out and when they finally release an "official" version of the OGL document, they might walk one or two things back or soften language, and the battered remainder of the community will go "oh, it's not so bad". Video game companies do this same thing all the time; and let's not forget, the executive who said D&D was "under-monetized" came from Microsoft.
Those are far from the only two options
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Here's the statement just released by Atropos, the main dev of foundry vtt:
"A Preliminary Statement Regarding The OGL Controversy
===================================
Hello @everyone. Over the past week our team, like many of you, have been closely following the news regarding anticipated updates to the Open Gaming License that has served the TTRPG community for the past two decades. A multitude of voices are rightfully expressing anger about the leaked 1.1 license terms. We are deeply concerned too, the terms of the draft license are wholly unacceptable to the creator community.
We have directly communicated those concerns to Wizards of the Coast. We are committed to supporting our fantastic network of content creator partners many of whom create content for D&D or other game systems using the OGL. We are determined to offer an industry-leading virtual tabletop that supports our users' most beloved game systems to the extent allowed by licensing requirements.
It is unfortunate that Wizards of the Coast has not posted an official statement. Many creators are rightfully feeling as if their livelihoods are under attack. We had wished to share a statement in response to official details posted by WOTC, but after several days of silence on the issue we feel compelled to join our team's voice to this conversation.
We hope that the strong community reaction and lack of official response imply that this dangerous path is being actively reconsidered. Until we have more clarity, it is essential for the community to continue expressing concerns to ensure the seriousness of this issue is understood by decision makers at WOTC and Hasbro. We encourage you to engage respectfully with this issue using the following resources:
- The ogl channel in this Discord server where you may discuss this topic.
- The https://opendnd.games/ website which contains an open letter discussing the issue as well as links to several resources to learn more.
- The #OpenDnD hashtag on Twitter and other social media platforms."
Meta observation of this and other threads: this controversy is tearing at the seams in the community. It's dividing us, not uniting us.
That, I think we all can agree, is bad, regardless of who is to blame -- in whole or part -- for the discord.
No matter your opinion on the situation, this is harming, not enriching, the community.
If Kickstarter negotiated a better fee for anyone. under what OGL did they negotiate it?
I would rely on the established copy write laws and never sign a OGL. For one the new OGL is being written and promoted by the only thing it protects. The company.
These leaks are unverified and unconfirmed. We don't even know if the leaks are true, guys; You shouldn't compare someone to "Darth Vader" until you're actually sure they've done something bad.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Exactly, thank you.
I uses to be dndlover_2.
Oh, by all means: let WotC clarify the situation! Remove all doubt and uncertainty from the equation. They could do so at any time for the past two weeks or so... And they haven't. Which means their silence is deliberate. If this WAS "all just a misunderstanding": this would be the sort of PR nightmare that leads to very public firings, and much apologizing.
But somehow I shan't hold my breath for that. I'll air on the side of people who have skin in the game and are reacting accordingly.