12th level build - The Valor Bard Extra attack has the feature:
6th Level Extra Attack: You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. In addition, you can cast one of your cantrips that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks.
But if you dip one level into Warlock - gain Eldritch Blast, and apply the 11th level x3 beams Literally gives a Bard (technically) 4 attacks. One weapon and 3 EB's.
That seems like an abuse. If it was a Magic Missile you'd have to cast a higher level spell to have all that.
Seems like the extra beams for Eldritch Blast is to make up for not having extra attacks, and gives the Warlocks a bump at 5, 11, and 17. To allow this as a 1 level dip seems like... that seems like cheese. It seams like you should allow ONE eldritch Blast as the extra attack, and that caps the abuse. Thoughts?
That Bard is doing 4 attacks, sure, but for how much damage? The weapon attack uses a different ability modifier to the EB, if we assume EB is prioritized then the weapon is STR. You're probably talking about CHA at a +4 and STR at a +2. I am going to assume this Bard is spell sniper to avoid disadvantage on the attacks and great weapon master with a greatsword
2d6+2+4+3*(1d10+4) @ 65% chance to hit gives, (7+16.5)×.7+18×.65 or 28.15 damage
vs. the Warlock using a greatsword with great weapon master and war caster.
3 * (2d6+4+4+1d6) @ 65% chance to hit gives, 3×(10.5×.7+8×.65) or 37.65 damage
Now you can boost these with say spirit shroud or fount of moonlight, both would be usable with a greatsword. the pure warlock with a greatsword goes up too 56.55 DPR with spirit shroud while the bard goes too 47.75 DPR with fount of moonlight. Notably the casting times are also different, Fount of Moonlight is an action vs. Spirit Shroud at a bonus action, this makes Spirit Shroud easier to pull off but Font of Moonlight does have a 10 minute duration, so it lasts longer which still makes it usable if you cast it sometime before combat.
Overall, I don't really see this as breaking anything.
EDIT: made a few mistakes in calculations (i.e. forgot upcast for spirit shroud) Fixed now.
12th level build - The Valor Bard Extra attack has the feature:
6th Level Extra Attack: You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. In addition, you can cast one of your cantrips that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks.
But if you dip one level into Warlock - gain Eldritch Blast, and apply the 11th level x3 beams Literally gives a Bard (technically) 4 attacks. One weapon and 3 EB's.
That seems like an abuse. If it was a Magic Missile you'd have to cast a higher level spell to have all that.
Seems like the extra beams for Eldritch Blast is to make up for not having extra attacks, and gives the Warlocks a bump at 5, 11, and 17. To allow this as a 1 level dip seems like... that seems like cheese. It seams like you should allow ONE eldritch Blast as the extra attack, and that caps the abuse. Thoughts?
You can do more with the right build.
See video: (d4 D&D Deep Dive is a great channel, and Colby is really smart and has a relaxing voice.)
Where are you getting this being a lvl 12 build or getting these features for a one level dip?
this looks like a lvl 17 build to me, 6 lvls in bard to get the extra attack, and then 11 lvls in warlock to get the 3 beam EB. Maybe I’m missing something though.
It could have been 10 bard 1 Warlock, to get the 11th Level bonus to Eldritch Blast. It seems like a lot for 11th level, but I cannot find anything that refutes it. Seems to me like the Bard Extra Attack needs to specify a 'non-cantrip' spell.
It specifically says cantrip - you cannot use it for a leveled spell which could be OP in its own right, though I am not sure how yet without thinking about it for a while.
Level 6: Extra Attack
You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
In addition, you can cast one of your cantrips that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks.
They could erratta it to be one of your prepared cantrips from the bard, wizard, cleric, or druid spell list (because of magical secrets).
Anyway, I dont think the overpowered nature comes from this combo alone, but when you add Conjure Minor Elementals into the mix as it is currently written, that is when you get some big sustained damage for multiple rounds.
Anyway, I dont think the overpowered nature comes from this combo alone, but when you add Conjure Minor Elementals into the mix as it is currently written, that is when you get some big sustained damage for multiple rounds.
Ah, I knew there was some broken spell somewhere It'd still need level 12 since need magical secrets from Bard (level 10) and Agonizing Blast from Warlock (level 2). Yeah, I dunno what they were thinking with Conjure Minor Elementals, it does more damage than Paladin's Holy Weapon, which just makes no sense.
Cantrips scale on total character level, not caster class level.
Thank you for pointing that out. I’ve only been playing a couple years and haven’t played any casters yet so I wasn’t aware there was a separation for the leveling.
It specifically says cantrip - you cannot use it for a leveled spell which could be OP in its own right, though I am not sure how yet without thinking about it for a while.
Level 6: Extra Attack
You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
In addition, you can cast one of your cantrips that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks.
They could erratta it to be one of your prepared cantrips from the bard, wizard, cleric, or druid spell list (because of magical secrets).
Anyway, I dont think the overpowered nature comes from this combo alone, but when you add Conjure Minor Elementals into the mix as it is currently written, that is when you get some big sustained damage for multiple rounds.
The argument in Eldritch Blast is that it is ONE action that triggers 3 blasts, each fired separately... If they just had the blast scale DAMAGE like every other Cantrip, then it would not be an issue. IMHO.
I don't think Conjure Minor Elemental is the cheese everyone thinks it is... without the multi-blast Eldritch Blast part of the broken builds... seems more like Elritch blast is broken (triggering the CME way too often) part, then anything else. IMHO. People keep saying that the broken thing is CME... but all these builds exploit Eldritch Blasts... seems sus.
12th level build - The Valor Bard Extra attack has the feature:
6th Level Extra Attack: You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. In addition, you can cast one of your cantrips that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks.
But if you dip one level into Warlock - gain Eldritch Blast, and apply the 11th level x3 beams Literally gives a Bard (technically) 4 attacks. One weapon and 3 EB's.
That seems like an abuse. If it was a Magic Missile you'd have to cast a higher level spell to have all that.
Seems like the extra beams for Eldritch Blast is to make up for not having extra attacks, and gives the Warlocks a bump at 5, 11, and 17. To allow this as a 1 level dip seems like... that seems like cheese. It seams like you should allow ONE eldritch Blast as the extra attack, and that caps the abuse. Thoughts?
You can do more with the right build.
See video: (d4 D&D Deep Dive is a great channel, and Colby is really smart and has a relaxing voice.)
Sorry to unbury this thread, but a 5th level Paladin/Fighter/Ranger can have 4 attacks a turn with Dual Wielder and a weapon with the Nick Mastery Property. So, adding 7 Wizard levels for a 12th level character: four triggers of CME per turn with no Eldritch Blast.
However, Valor Bard 10/Warlock 1/Fighter 1 with the same feat/weapon setup means SIX attacks per turn with access to CME. Not to mention being able to grab Agonizing Blast with one more character level.
So, Eldritch Blast is broken then, right? The Eldritch Knight's 7th level feature almost makes their Extra Attack equivalent to a Valor Bard's, except for the fact that the EK feature specifies that the Cantrip has to be a Wizard Cantrip. The new Unearthed Arcana 2025 Bladesinger almost has the Valor Bard's Extra Attack too, except it also specifies it has to be a Wizard cantrip.
In my opinion, the problem around CME is not Eldritch Blast inherently, it's that the Valor Bard's Extra Attack is missing the word "Bard" in it. I really don't think Eldritch Knights, Bladesingers, or Valor Bard's should be able to use EB with their Extra Attack, and WotC went two-for-three there.
12th level build -
The Valor Bard Extra attack has the feature:
But if you dip one level into Warlock - gain Eldritch Blast, and apply the 11th level x3 beams
Literally gives a Bard (technically) 4 attacks. One weapon and 3 EB's.
That seems like an abuse. If it was a Magic Missile you'd have to cast a higher level spell to have all that.
Seems like the extra beams for Eldritch Blast is to make up for not having extra attacks, and gives the Warlocks a bump at 5, 11, and 17.
To allow this as a 1 level dip seems like... that seems like cheese. It seams like you should allow ONE eldritch Blast as the extra attack, and that caps the abuse.
Thoughts?
Remember that a level 12 Warlock (only 1 level higher) can take the following Eldritch Invocation options
Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Life Drinker and Devouring Blade.
That Bard is doing 4 attacks, sure, but for how much damage? The weapon attack uses a different ability modifier to the EB, if we assume EB is prioritized then the weapon is STR. You're probably talking about CHA at a +4 and STR at a +2. I am going to assume this Bard is spell sniper to avoid disadvantage on the attacks and great weapon master with a greatsword
2d6+2+4+3*(1d10+4) @ 65% chance to hit gives, (7+16.5)×.7+18×.65 or 28.15 damage
vs. the Warlock using a greatsword with great weapon master and war caster.
3 * (2d6+4+4+1d6) @ 65% chance to hit gives, 3×(10.5×.7+8×.65) or 37.65 damage
Now you can boost these with say spirit shroud or fount of moonlight, both would be usable with a greatsword. the pure warlock with a greatsword goes up too 56.55 DPR with spirit shroud while the bard goes too 47.75 DPR with fount of moonlight. Notably the casting times are also different, Fount of Moonlight is an action vs. Spirit Shroud at a bonus action, this makes Spirit Shroud easier to pull off but Font of Moonlight does have a 10 minute duration, so it lasts longer which still makes it usable if you cast it sometime before combat.
Overall, I don't really see this as breaking anything.
EDIT: made a few mistakes in calculations (i.e. forgot upcast for spirit shroud) Fixed now.
You can do more with the right build.
See video: (d4 D&D Deep Dive is a great channel, and Colby is really smart and has a relaxing voice.)
Where are you getting this being a lvl 12 build or getting these features for a one level dip?
this looks like a lvl 17 build to me, 6 lvls in bard to get the extra attack, and then 11 lvls in warlock to get the 3 beam EB. Maybe I’m missing something though.
Cantrips scale on total character level, not caster class level.
Missed this in my previous post but Agonizing Blast has a warlock level 2 prerequisite so you'd need two levels in Warlock for this.
It could have been 10 bard 1 Warlock, to get the 11th Level bonus to Eldritch Blast.
It seems like a lot for 11th level, but I cannot find anything that refutes it.
Seems to me like the Bard Extra Attack needs to specify a 'non-cantrip' spell.
It specifically says cantrip - you cannot use it for a leveled spell which could be OP in its own right, though I am not sure how yet without thinking about it for a while.
Level 6: Extra Attack
You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
In addition, you can cast one of your cantrips that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks.
They could erratta it to be one of your prepared cantrips from the bard, wizard, cleric, or druid spell list (because of magical secrets).
Anyway, I dont think the overpowered nature comes from this combo alone, but when you add Conjure Minor Elementals into the mix as it is currently written, that is when you get some big sustained damage for multiple rounds.
Ah, I knew there was some broken spell somewhere It'd still need level 12 since need magical secrets from Bard (level 10) and Agonizing Blast from Warlock (level 2). Yeah, I dunno what they were thinking with Conjure Minor Elementals, it does more damage than Paladin's Holy Weapon, which just makes no sense.
Thank you for pointing that out. I’ve only been playing a couple years and haven’t played any casters yet so I wasn’t aware there was a separation for the leveling.
The argument in Eldritch Blast is that it is ONE action that triggers 3 blasts, each fired separately...
If they just had the blast scale DAMAGE like every other Cantrip, then it would not be an issue. IMHO.
I don't think Conjure Minor Elemental is the cheese everyone thinks it is... without the multi-blast Eldritch Blast part of the broken builds...
seems more like Elritch blast is broken (triggering the CME way too often) part, then anything else.
IMHO.
People keep saying that the broken thing is CME... but all these builds exploit Eldritch Blasts... seems sus.
Dude basically makes D&D ASMR videos
Sorry to unbury this thread, but a 5th level Paladin/Fighter/Ranger can have 4 attacks a turn with Dual Wielder and a weapon with the Nick Mastery Property. So, adding 7 Wizard levels for a 12th level character: four triggers of CME per turn with no Eldritch Blast.
However, Valor Bard 10/Warlock 1/Fighter 1 with the same feat/weapon setup means SIX attacks per turn with access to CME. Not to mention being able to grab Agonizing Blast with one more character level.
So, Eldritch Blast is broken then, right? The Eldritch Knight's 7th level feature almost makes their Extra Attack equivalent to a Valor Bard's, except for the fact that the EK feature specifies that the Cantrip has to be a Wizard Cantrip. The new Unearthed Arcana 2025 Bladesinger almost has the Valor Bard's Extra Attack too, except it also specifies it has to be a Wizard cantrip.
In my opinion, the problem around CME is not Eldritch Blast inherently, it's that the Valor Bard's Extra Attack is missing the word "Bard" in it. I really don't think Eldritch Knights, Bladesingers, or Valor Bard's should be able to use EB with their Extra Attack, and WotC went two-for-three there.