It just doesn't seem like a good spell. You're spending a 4th-level slot to reduce an attack's damage by about 18 and deal about 10 expected damage. Really? I'd rather cast Shield, protecting against MULTIPLE attacks, and then cast Fireball next turn, dealing 50+ damage, depending on how many enemies there are. Combining the benefits of a worse Shield and Hellish Rebuke is not a good use of a 4th-level slot.
It is good damage for a reaction spell and can be cast at higher levels for more protection/damage, seems to reduce any form of damage, deals Force damage in return.
I'm not sure I'd want this as a main defensive spell, but I might want it.
It is somewhat decent, but I'd really rather use my 4th-level slots for Banishment or Blight or something better. if it was 3rd level, or less powerful and 2nd level, than it would be really good.
Its pretty godawful imo. But hey one of the few spells warlocks got so there is that. Their absolutely terrible spell list is 3 less terrible now. But i doubt id take it even on a warlock. Its better on them as they likely have the room do a niche spell and im sure there will be a point you get hit for 15 damage when you only have 15 hit points left and you are glad it is there. But still not worth the spell known imo and not worth the slot.
I assume the theory behind it being 4th level is that it's 8d6 worth of effect, which is in the ballpark of blight (8d8) or raulothim's psychic lance (7d6), or for that matter hellish rebuke cast at 4th level (5d10); it's just split in half between healing and damage, which at the point you're casting 4th-level spells, makes both effects much less useful
I would have kept the d10s from Hellish Rebuke and made it 3d10/3d10, and go up by a d10 on the upcast, but that's just me
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I assume the theory behind it being 4th level is that it's 8d6 worth of effect, which is in the ballpark of blight (8d8) or raulothim's psychic lance (7d6), or for that matter hellish rebuke cast at 4th level (5d10); it's just split in half between healing and damage, which at the point you're casting 4th-level spells, makes both effects much less useful
I would have kept the d10s from Hellish Rebuke and made it 3d10/3d10, and go up by a d10 on the upcast, but that's just me
If that's how WotC balance spells, they need to find a new system.
I assume the theory behind it being 4th level is that it's 8d6 worth of effect, which is in the ballpark of blight (8d8) or raulothim's psychic lance (7d6)
The problem being that blight is a bad spell, and raulothim's psychic lance is a spell you cast for CC, not damage.
I don't think it's powergaming/minmaxing(Which are valid playstyles)-friendly for sure, tho, and that may be where people are think it's bad.
Even in a more casual playstyle, it's not very good. There are better ways to protect yourself, and better ways to deal damage even, as a Reaction
The scenarios in which it makes sense to do a small bit of both at the same time are extremely limited
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
What are the better widely accessible counterpunches for casters? Hellish Rebuke and Armor of Agathys are only class spells for Warlocks, and Fire Shield is specifically for adjacent melee attacks.
What are the better widely accessible counterpunches for casters? Hellish Rebuke and Armor of Agathys are only class spells for Warlocks, and Fire Shield is specifically for adjacent melee attacks.
Hellish Rebuke does more damage at 2nd level than this does at 4th
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
What are the better widely accessible counterpunches for casters? Hellish Rebuke and Armor of Agathys are only class spells for Warlocks, and Fire Shield is specifically for adjacent melee attacks.
Hellish Rebuke does more damage at 2nd level than this does at 4th
And, again, is only on one class list. Plus it doesn’t mitigate damage.
What are the better widely accessible counterpunches for casters? Hellish Rebuke and Armor of Agathys are only class spells for Warlocks, and Fire Shield is specifically for adjacent melee attacks.
Hellish Rebuke does more damage at 2nd level than this does at 4th
And, again, is only on one class list. Plus it doesn’t mitigate damage.
There are plenty of ways for non-warlocks to get it if they want it. And your second point is basically moot, as I already said
The scenarios in which it makes sense to do a small bit of both at the same time are extremely limited
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You can only get Hellish Rebuke by dipping Warlock or going Infernal Tiefling, if memory serves. Also, Warlock casters don't have a lot of defensive options without multi-classing, so this gives them something. Not everyone chooses shield as their Magic Initiate spell
What are the better widely accessible counterpunches for casters?
It definitely doesn't have a lot of competition in its particular role, the question is whether it's a role that's particularly important to fill, as opposed to using your reaction for the usual suspects of shield, absorb elements, counterspell, and silvery barbs.
What are the better widely accessible counterpunches for casters? Hellish Rebuke and Armor of Agathys are only class spells for Warlocks, and Fire Shield is specifically for adjacent melee attacks.
Hellish Rebuke does more damage at 2nd level than this does at 4th
And, again, is only on one class list. Plus it doesn’t mitigate damage.
There are plenty of ways for non-warlocks to get it if they want it. And your second point is basically moot, as I already said
The scenarios in which it makes sense to do a small bit of both at the same time are extremely limited
How besides being an Infernal Tiefling & taking very specific feats/backgrounds/subclasses/magic items, 2024 RAW-wise?
Also:Remember that not everyone plays as you do, so when you talk about what makes sense, try to look outside your own(valid) playstyle and/or ones recommended to you.
There are at least 3-4 perfectly valid playstyles that are having backlash against Backlash because it doesn't fit those valid playstyles. So my advice is to think outside of those boxes.
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
You can only get Hellish Rebuke by dipping Warlock or going Infernal Tiefling, if memory serves. Also, Warlock casters don't have a lot of defensive options without multi-classing, so this gives them something. Not everyone chooses shield as their Magic Initiate spell
The fact that we're talking about 1st-level spells as the most viable alternatives to a 4th-level spell should be a big red flag
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
A 1st level spell that unless you upcast it, it doesn't have the same effect. Sure, Hellish Rebuke is better for raw damage--when upcasted. The point of Backlash is some additional damage mitigation with some of it reflected back. It's not the best spell, but it is an option that could potentially save you on a pinch, specially on a Warlock. Fact is, the only other official spell in 5E that uses dice rolls to reduce incoming damage taken is Resistance--and it's even worse for a cantrip. Most other abilities like this are class features, or spells that straight give resistance to damage types. The closest analog is Absorb Elements, and it gives resistance to an element while the extra damage is done on a melee attack
It just doesn't seem like a good spell. You're spending a 4th-level slot to reduce an attack's damage by about 18 and deal about 10 expected damage. Really? I'd rather cast Shield, protecting against MULTIPLE attacks, and then cast Fireball next turn, dealing 50+ damage, depending on how many enemies there are. Combining the benefits of a worse Shield and Hellish Rebuke is not a good use of a 4th-level slot.
It is good damage for a reaction spell and can be cast at higher levels for more protection/damage, seems to reduce any form of damage, deals Force damage in return.
I'm not sure I'd want this as a main defensive spell, but I might want it.
It is somewhat decent, but I'd really rather use my 4th-level slots for Banishment or Blight or something better. if it was 3rd level, or less powerful and 2nd level, than it would be really good.
It's really more of a Warlock spell since they have so few defensive options
Its pretty godawful imo. But hey one of the few spells warlocks got so there is that. Their absolutely terrible spell list is 3 less terrible now. But i doubt id take it even on a warlock. Its better on them as they likely have the room do a niche spell and im sure there will be a point you get hit for 15 damage when you only have 15 hit points left and you are glad it is there. But still not worth the spell known imo and not worth the slot.
I can come up with scenarios in which I'd want to cast it (you can't cast fireball if you're at 0 hp...), but they're not exactly common.
I assume the theory behind it being 4th level is that it's 8d6 worth of effect, which is in the ballpark of blight (8d8) or raulothim's psychic lance (7d6), or for that matter hellish rebuke cast at 4th level (5d10); it's just split in half between healing and damage, which at the point you're casting 4th-level spells, makes both effects much less useful
I would have kept the d10s from Hellish Rebuke and made it 3d10/3d10, and go up by a d10 on the upcast, but that's just me
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If that's how WotC balance spells, they need to find a new system.
The problem being that blight is a bad spell, and raulothim's psychic lance is a spell you cast for CC, not damage.
I don't think it's bad.
I don't think it's powergaming/minmaxing(Which are valid playstyles)-friendly for sure, tho, and that may be where people are think it's bad.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Even in a more casual playstyle, it's not very good. There are better ways to protect yourself, and better ways to deal damage even, as a Reaction
The scenarios in which it makes sense to do a small bit of both at the same time are extremely limited
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
What are the better widely accessible counterpunches for casters? Hellish Rebuke and Armor of Agathys are only class spells for Warlocks, and Fire Shield is specifically for adjacent melee attacks.
Hellish Rebuke does more damage at 2nd level than this does at 4th
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
And, again, is only on one class list. Plus it doesn’t mitigate damage.
There are plenty of ways for non-warlocks to get it if they want it. And your second point is basically moot, as I already said
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You can only get Hellish Rebuke by dipping Warlock or going Infernal Tiefling, if memory serves. Also, Warlock casters don't have a lot of defensive options without multi-classing, so this gives them something. Not everyone chooses shield as their Magic Initiate spell
It definitely doesn't have a lot of competition in its particular role, the question is whether it's a role that's particularly important to fill, as opposed to using your reaction for the usual suspects of shield, absorb elements, counterspell, and silvery barbs.
How besides being an Infernal Tiefling & taking very specific feats/backgrounds/subclasses/magic items, 2024 RAW-wise?
Also:Remember that not everyone plays as you do, so when you talk about what makes sense, try to look outside your own(valid) playstyle and/or ones recommended to you.
There are at least 3-4 perfectly valid playstyles that are having backlash against Backlash because it doesn't fit those valid playstyles. So my advice is to think outside of those boxes.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
The fact that we're talking about 1st-level spells as the most viable alternatives to a 4th-level spell should be a big red flag
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
A 1st level spell that unless you upcast it, it doesn't have the same effect. Sure, Hellish Rebuke is better for raw damage--when upcasted. The point of Backlash is some additional damage mitigation with some of it reflected back. It's not the best spell, but it is an option that could potentially save you on a pinch, specially on a Warlock. Fact is, the only other official spell in 5E that uses dice rolls to reduce incoming damage taken is Resistance--and it's even worse for a cantrip. Most other abilities like this are class features, or spells that straight give resistance to damage types.
The closest analog is Absorb Elements, and it gives resistance to an element while the extra damage is done on a melee attack