I do not get why people dislike the 2024 rules.

They aren't terrible, but they do feel like they could have used another round or two in playtesting. A lot of things feel underbaked. I think their desire to get it out for the anniversary had them cutting some corners. 

2024 rules are ridiculously OP... Take two characters, one from 2014 rules and one from 2024 rules in a PvP situation and see who wins. As a DM that likes to add suspense and a feel of danger, 2024 removes all sense of any danger. The characters are so OP I have to make the encounters unbelievably OP just to add some challenge. 

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from CunningSmile >>

Quote from TymptedToKMS >>

So it's by the book with one massive rule being Homebrew. By going by what the rules say cantrips that are instant or one action can theoretically be used twice per combat. One as an action one as a bonus action. And I am allowing them to do that.

 Not sure where you got this idea from. Cantrips, just like any spell, have a casting time of an Action or a Bonus Action (varies from spell to spell) and that’s how long they take to cast. You can’t cast a cantrip that takes an Action to cast with a bonus action and vice versa

 This.

Also, doing that makes casters significantly more powerful in combat than martial classes. Cantrip damage is balanced to let casters hold their own in combat even without burning spell levels. Letting them double-cast cantrips makes their baseline damage much higher than any fighter-types are going to do.

 Might explain why the OP thinks his players are "steamrolling" his encounters if he's essentially giving the casters double their turns, that would play havok with the action economy if nothing else

Their damage wouldn't be that much above martials, to be honest. Take [spell]Fire Bolt[/spells], for example.

A Fighter will likely be doing 1d10+4, twice at L5. That's 19 damage. Fire Bolt does 2d10 at level 5, so 11 damage. Since you'd be doing it twice, that's 22. Only 3 points in it. Other levels are similar - L1 would be 9.5 v 11 for example. 

Now, that's not to say I'd allow it, Cantrips are there to make you feel like you're contributing even when you're main attacks are exhausted, while Martials are all about those sword strikes and doing them all day long. As such, to respect Martial/Caster balance, Cantrips should be substantially worse than the Martial bread and butter strikes.

But if the players are steamrolling enemies, it's not because they've got two Cantrips per turn, it'll be something else. Like doing two levelled Fireballs per turn or something, that would break the game somewhat. Two Cantrips per turn just puts the caster on a par with a Fighter.

Quote from Linklite >>

Their damage wouldn't be that much above martials, to be honest. Take [spell]Fire Bolt[/spells], for example.

A Fighter will likely be doing 1d10+4, twice at L5. That's 19 damage. Fire Bolt does 2d10 at level 5, so 11 damage. Since you'd be doing it twice, that's 22. Only 3 points in it. Other levels are similar - L1 would be 9.5 v 11 for example. 

Now, that's not to say I'd allow it, Cantrips are there to make you feel like you're contributing even when you're main attacks are exhausted, while Martials are all about those sword strikes and doing them all day long. As such, to respect Martial/Caster balance, Cantrips should be substantially worse than the Martial bread and butter strikes.

But if the players are steamrolling enemies, it's not because they've got two Cantrips per turn, it'll be something else. Like doing two levelled Fireballs per turn or something, that would break the game somewhat. Two Cantrips per turn just puts the caster on a par with a Fighter.

 Fighters are actually a lot more broken than just two can trips. Going by what the rules themselves state. A fighter could use the weapon mastery to get the light hammer or dagger which will do 1d6. And using the weapon mastery it would allow you to attack a second time per year or normal action instead of using a bonus action. Which means you still have your bonus action. Which will allow you to attack three times in one turn, technically four times if your DM would allow you to do the dual attack during your bonus action. And at level five you can get a feat that would allow you to attack a second time as an action which theoretically would mean you could attack up to six times with the correct feat set up.

Quote from CunningSmile >>

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from CunningSmile >>

Quote from TymptedToKMS >>

So it's by the book with one massive rule being Homebrew. By going by what the rules say cantrips that are instant or one action can theoretically be used twice per combat. One as an action one as a bonus action. And I am allowing them to do that.

 Not sure where you got this idea from. Cantrips, just like any spell, have a casting time of an Action or a Bonus Action (varies from spell to spell) and that’s how long they take to cast. You can’t cast a cantrip that takes an Action to cast with a bonus action and vice versa

 This.

Also, doing that makes casters significantly more powerful in combat than martial classes. Cantrip damage is balanced to let casters hold their own in combat even without burning spell levels. Letting them double-cast cantrips makes their baseline damage much higher than any fighter-types are going to do.

 Might explain why the OP thinks his players are "steamrolling" his encounters if he's essentially giving the casters double their turns, that would play havok with the action economy if nothing else

 The thing with cantrips is one action equals attack action or bonus action. You get an attack action and a bonus action every single turn going by those rules that are stated in the book that do not say you cannot do it that would mean any cantrip that is one action or an instant can be used twice if you do not use a level one spell beforehand. It's the same equivalent of having shield of faith and holding your bonus action to use as a reaction to give a plus 2 to a teammate on their armor class. 

Quote from unRiva1ed >>

2024 rules are ridiculously OP... Take two characters, one from 2014 rules and one from 2024 rules in a PvP situation and see who wins. As a DM that likes to add suspense and a feel of danger, 2024 removes all sense of any danger. The characters are so OP I have to make the encounters unbelievably OP just to add some challenge. 

 You don't have to make a OP. Let's say your characters are going up against a group of bandits and their boss. Make your boss have a ring that allows them to dispel all magic in a 10 ft radius for five turns. That's not overpowered that just means they're going to have to think of something other to do. Or something along the lines of for the entirety of next turn until it comes back to him every single one of them has to do a wisdom saving through due to a ring effect that tricks the player's minds into thinking that their teammates could be the enemies and the enemies could be the teammates. It's not overpowered it's just something that gives them a little bit of an edge of, oh s*** wait what's going on.

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

They aren't terrible, but they do feel like they could have used another round or two in playtesting. A lot of things feel underbaked. I think their desire to get it out for the anniversary had them cutting some corners. 

 Honestly so far you are the only one that gives logic to your answer instead of just a flat out yes or no.

Quote from sabin76 >>

From your responses (some of which I skimmed, so sorry if you addressed this), it appears that you already have a notion of what it means to be a DM that is incongruous with the norm. You job is not to "beat" the players, and their job is not the "beat" the DM (this can be the case in a "meatgrinder" or pure "dungeon crawl" type of campaign, but you should only run those for people who know exactly what they are getting into as it isn't that many people's cup of tea). All of your jobs are to create a fun storytelling experience. The DM is definitely not the main character, the players are. Treat them as the protagonists of the story you are all weaving.

Objectively speaking, player power has gone up a bit with 2024... but so did the monsters (for the most part). The caster/martial divide is smaller now than it was (still leans caster unless you really limit the ability to long rest). 2024 was a great update with a few oddballs.

 As I said before. There is no statement that prevents of multiple spells as lvl 0 (cantrips) it states that you can do any action or instant during your attack action or bonus action. Like a character I had once made had a high armor that was also part cleric. And my character would attack to try to get the attention on him and then hold his bonus action to use as a reaction just in case. That way if my teammate is about to get hit by an heavy attack that's only two or less above his armor class I can cast shield of Faith to give him a plus two to his armor class to help him defend against it. That means bonus actions can be used for attacking with a spell just like a fighter can attack with his action and also attack with his bonus action. The book states that a level 1 spell can be used as an action but not as a bonus action. Which would mean cantrips because not specifically stated unable to be done can be home brewed to be able to be used as a bonus action. Going by that I allow them to do one spell and one can trip and I've only been choosing to do two can trips...

So as a way to balance that the magic that they're around is going to start causing chaos while using the cantrips.

Quote from TymptedToKMS >>

Quote from Linklite >>

Their damage wouldn't be that much above martials, to be honest. Take [spell]Fire Bolt[/spells], for example.

A Fighter will likely be doing 1d10+4, twice at L5. That's 19 damage. Fire Bolt does 2d10 at level 5, so 11 damage. Since you'd be doing it twice, that's 22. Only 3 points in it. Other levels are similar - L1 would be 9.5 v 11 for example. 

Now, that's not to say I'd allow it, Cantrips are there to make you feel like you're contributing even when you're main attacks are exhausted, while Martials are all about those sword strikes and doing them all day long. As such, to respect Martial/Caster balance, Cantrips should be substantially worse than the Martial bread and butter strikes.

But if the players are steamrolling enemies, it's not because they've got two Cantrips per turn, it'll be something else. Like doing two levelled Fireballs per turn or something, that would break the game somewhat. Two Cantrips per turn just puts the caster on a par with a Fighter.

 Fighters are actually a lot more broken than just two can trips. Going by what the rules themselves state. A fighter could use the weapon mastery to get the light hammer or dagger which will do 1d6. And using the weapon mastery it would allow you to attack a second time per year or normal action instead of using a bonus action. Which means you still have your bonus action. Which will allow you to attack three times in one turn, technically four times if your DM would allow you to do the dual attack during your bonus action. And at level five you can get a feat that would allow you to attack a second time as an action which theoretically would mean you could attack up to six times with the correct feat set up.

Any character can be overpowered if the DM allows them to make way more attacks in a turn than are actually allowed by the rules. That's not really a problem with the rules.

Quote from TymptedToKMS >>

Quote from sabin76 >>

From your responses (some of which I skimmed, so sorry if you addressed this), it appears that you already have a notion of what it means to be a DM that is incongruous with the norm. You job is not to "beat" the players, and their job is not the "beat" the DM (this can be the case in a "meatgrinder" or pure "dungeon crawl" type of campaign, but you should only run those for people who know exactly what they are getting into as it isn't that many people's cup of tea). All of your jobs are to create a fun storytelling experience. The DM is definitely not the main character, the players are. Treat them as the protagonists of the story you are all weaving.

Objectively speaking, player power has gone up a bit with 2024... but so did the monsters (for the most part). The caster/martial divide is smaller now than it was (still leans caster unless you really limit the ability to long rest). 2024 was a great update with a few oddballs.

 As I said before. There is no statement that prevents of multiple spells as lvl 0 (cantrips) it states that you can do any action or instant during your attack action or bonus action. Like a character I had once made had a high armor that was also part cleric. And my character would attack to try to get the attention on him and then hold his bonus action to use as a reaction just in case. That way if my teammate is about to get hit by an heavy attack that's only two or less above his armor class I can cast shield of Faith to give him a plus two to his armor class to help him defend against it. That means bonus actions can be used for attacking with a spell just like a fighter can attack with his action and also attack with his bonus action. The book states that a level 1 spell can be used as an action but not as a bonus action. Which would mean cantrips because not specifically stated unable to be done can be home brewed to be able to be used as a bonus action. Going by that I allow them to do one spell and one can trip and I've only been choosing to do two can trips...

So as a way to balance that the magic that they're around is going to start causing chaos while using the cantrips.

 Also to bring up the point that you said in the beginning. 

To me being a Dean is to make a story that is engaging to the players while beating the ever-loving out of them without killing them permanently. Bring a mass close to dying without actually killing them. While giving them the opportunity to do the same to the DN while also trying to find parts of the story that aren't just instantly laid right in front of them.

Quote from TymptedToKMS >>

Quote from CunningSmile >>

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from CunningSmile >>

Quote from TymptedToKMS >>

So it's by the book with one massive rule being Homebrew. By going by what the rules say cantrips that are instant or one action can theoretically be used twice per combat. One as an action one as a bonus action. And I am allowing them to do that.

 Not sure where you got this idea from. Cantrips, just like any spell, have a casting time of an Action or a Bonus Action (varies from spell to spell) and that’s how long they take to cast. You can’t cast a cantrip that takes an Action to cast with a bonus action and vice versa

 This.

Also, doing that makes casters significantly more powerful in combat than martial classes. Cantrip damage is balanced to let casters hold their own in combat even without burning spell levels. Letting them double-cast cantrips makes their baseline damage much higher than any fighter-types are going to do.

 Might explain why the OP thinks his players are "steamrolling" his encounters if he's essentially giving the casters double their turns, that would play havok with the action economy if nothing else

 The thing with cantrips is one action equals attack action or bonus action. You get an attack action and a bonus action every single turn going by those rules that are stated in the book that do not say you cannot do it that would mean any cantrip that is one action or an instant can be used twice if you do not use a level one spell beforehand. It's the same equivalent of having shield of faith and holding your bonus action to use as a reaction to give a plus 2 to a teammate on their armor class. 

That is not how any of that works.

Actions and bonus actions are not interchangeable. Some spells take an action to cast while others take a bonus action to cast. If a spell takes an action to cast, you can't cast it as a bonus action unless you have some specific feature that lets you do that (the Sorcerer class's Quickened Spell, for instance). 

You also can't, according to the actual rules, ready a bonus action for use on a later turn. You can only ready movement or an action.

I think you may be misunderstanding what a "bonus action" is. It's not just another action you can take on your turn. It's a separate type of action, and you can only do things with it that specifically say they use a bonus action.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from TymptedToKMS >>

Quote from CunningSmile >>

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from CunningSmile >>

Quote from TymptedToKMS >>

So it's by the book with one massive rule being Homebrew. By going by what the rules say cantrips that are instant or one action can theoretically be used twice per combat. One as an action one as a bonus action. And I am allowing them to do that.

 Not sure where you got this idea from. Cantrips, just like any spell, have a casting time of an Action or a Bonus Action (varies from spell to spell) and that’s how long they take to cast. You can’t cast a cantrip that takes an Action to cast with a bonus action and vice versa

 This.

Also, doing that makes casters significantly more powerful in combat than martial classes. Cantrip damage is balanced to let casters hold their own in combat even without burning spell levels. Letting them double-cast cantrips makes their baseline damage much higher than any fighter-types are going to do.

 Might explain why the OP thinks his players are "steamrolling" his encounters if he's essentially giving the casters double their turns, that would play havok with the action economy if nothing else

 The thing with cantrips is one action equals attack action or bonus action. You get an attack action and a bonus action every single turn going by those rules that are stated in the book that do not say you cannot do it that would mean any cantrip that is one action or an instant can be used twice if you do not use a level one spell beforehand. It's the same equivalent of having shield of faith and holding your bonus action to use as a reaction to give a plus 2 to a teammate on their armor class. 

That is not how any of that works.

Actions and bonus actions are not interchangeable. Some spells take an action to cast while others take a bonus action to cast. If a spell takes an action to cast, you can't cast it as a bonus action unless you have some specific feature that lets you do that (the Sorcerer class's Quickened Spell, for instance). 

You also can't, according to the actual rules, ready a bonus action for use on a later turn. You can only ready movement or an action.

I think you may be misunderstanding what a "bonus action" is. It's not just another action you can take on your turn. It's a separate type of action, and you can only do things with it that specifically say they use a bonus action.

 Give me the page number and the chapter number and the paragraph number where it says that I am actually wrong and I will apologize but reading through the book myself it states a held action can be used as a reaction for anything that is a single action or an instant meaning a can trip or spell that is an instant or one action turn can be held to be used as a reaction letting me be able to cast a spell to give a plus two to armor class 2 a teammate who's about to get hit and possibly murdered. I have reread the book multiple times before I tried doing the DM run for myself. 

And it keeps coming back to the book even explaining these are not 100% set in stone. This book is to give you the information needing needed to run your own campaign how you want. Unless the book states that it's impossible to do the game is literally at your fingertips and you can do what you want. 

Going by what the book itself States they are allowed to be held actions used for boosting or protecting your party members with a spell or cantrips that are instant or one action turns can be cast during bonus action or attack action.

Quote from TymptedToKMS >>

Quote from sabin76 >>

From your responses (some of which I skimmed, so sorry if you addressed this), it appears that you already have a notion of what it means to be a DM that is incongruous with the norm. You job is not to "beat" the players, and their job is not the "beat" the DM (this can be the case in a "meatgrinder" or pure "dungeon crawl" type of campaign, but you should only run those for people who know exactly what they are getting into as it isn't that many people's cup of tea). All of your jobs are to create a fun storytelling experience. The DM is definitely not the main character, the players are. Treat them as the protagonists of the story you are all weaving.

Objectively speaking, player power has gone up a bit with 2024... but so did the monsters (for the most part). The caster/martial divide is smaller now than it was (still leans caster unless you really limit the ability to long rest). 2024 was a great update with a few oddballs.

 As I said before. There is no statement that prevents of multiple spells as lvl 0 (cantrips) it states that you can do any action or instant during your attack action or bonus action. Like a character I had once made had a high armor that was also part cleric. And my character would attack to try to get the attention on him and then hold his bonus action to use as a reaction just in case. That way if my teammate is about to get hit by an heavy attack that's only two or less above his armor class I can cast shield of Faith to give him a plus two to his armor class to help him defend against it. That means bonus actions can be used for attacking with a spell just like a fighter can attack with his action and also attack with his bonus action. The book states that a level 1 spell can be used as an action but not as a bonus action. Which would mean cantrips because not specifically stated unable to be done can be home brewed to be able to be used as a bonus action. Going by that I allow them to do one spell and one can trip and I've only been choosing to do two can trips...

So as a way to balance that the magic that they're around is going to start causing chaos while using the cantrips.

 With respect, you don't seem to be reading the rules correctly. Bonus Actions and Actions are not interchangeable.

First, read the rules on casting times: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/spells#CastingTime

Spells are cast either as an Action OR a Bonus Action. Which it requires is part of the spell's definition. You can only use one "levelled spell" with a Spell Slot on your turn.

So you can ONLY cast two spells on your turn if:

• You cast one spell that can be cast as a Bonus Action (some spells are defined as requiring a Bonus Action, but some other effects such as a Sorcerer's "Quicken" Metamagic allow you to transform a Spell that normally takes an Action into a Bonus Action) AND
• You cast one spell that can be cast as an Action

Since you can only use one Spell Slot on your turn, it means ONE of the aforementioned spells must be cast without a Spell Slot (e.g. a cantrip or via some magic item).

I'm pretty sure there are no Bonus Action cantrips (?), so casting two cantrips per turn could only be done if you use "Quicken" Metamagic or some similar effect.

Second, Readying an Action doesn't change any of the above. Read https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/br-2024/rules-glossary#ReadyAction

The "Ready" action is an Action in itself. And it specifically says that to Ready a spell, that spell must have a casting time of one Action. Again, this is not interchangeable. The casting time of a spell is part of its definition.

Since I don't know if I can post directly from the PHB here, here is the line from the basic rules:

You can take a Bonus Action only when a special ability, a spell, or another feature of the game states that you can do something as a Bonus Action. You otherwise don’t have a Bonus Action to take.

Actions and bonus actions are not interchangeable. 

Quote from TymptedToKMS>>

 As I said before. There is no statement that prevents of multiple spells as lvl 0 (cantrips) it states that you can do any action or instant during your attack action or bonus action.

Like a character I had once made had a high armor that was also part cleric. And my character would attack to try to get the attention on him and then hold his bonus action to use as a reaction just in case. That way if my teammate is about to get hit by an heavy attack that's only two or less above his armor class I can cast shield of Faith to give him a plus two to his armor class to help him defend against it.

That means bonus actions can be used for attacking with a spell just like a fighter can attack with his action and also attack with his bonus action.

Quote from TymptedToKMS >>

 Fighters are actually a lot more broken than just two can trips. Going by what the rules themselves state. A fighter could use the weapon mastery to get the light hammer or dagger which will do 1d6. And using the weapon mastery it would allow you to attack a second time per year or normal action instead of using a bonus action. Which means you still have your bonus action. Which will allow you to attack three times in one turn, technically four times if your DM would allow you to do the dual attack during your bonus action. And at level five you can get a feat that would allow you to attack a second time as an action which theoretically would mean you could attack up to six times with the correct feat set up.

 I will admit that the light-weapon attack rules aren't the easiest thing to follow, but you have them quite incorrect.

• If you attack with a light weapon as part of your Attack Action
• Then you can attack with a different light weapon as a bonus action (This is not the Attack Action)
• If you have the Nick mastery, you can make the above attack as part of the Attack Action instead
• However, the Nick mastery restricts the extra attack of the light property to once per turn, so you can't make it as a bonus action as well
• But, if you have the Dual Wielder feat, you can still take its bonus action attack (This is also not the Attack Action)
• So, if you're using light weapons, you can get three attacks out of it between your Action and your Bonus Action
• Extra attack, which keys off making the Attack Action, only applies to the first step, giving you one more attack (unless you're a high-level fighter)
• Also, while you can make a lot of attacks, they're with small weapons, so the damage isn't all that when compared to what you can get out of other weapon setups (It's comparable)

I think you need to go back and better familiarize yourself with the action economy.

You can Ready in response to a trigger;

• Movement up to your Speed
• An action
• A spell with a casting time of an action

So if what you're trying to have readied isn't one of these, it's likely a houserule.

Quote from RJP1973 >>

Quote from TymptedToKMS >>

Quote from sabin76 >>

From your responses (some of which I skimmed, so sorry if you addressed this), it appears that you already have a notion of what it means to be a DM that is incongruous with the norm. You job is not to "beat" the players, and their job is not the "beat" the DM (this can be the case in a "meatgrinder" or pure "dungeon crawl" type of campaign, but you should only run those for people who know exactly what they are getting into as it isn't that many people's cup of tea). All of your jobs are to create a fun storytelling experience. The DM is definitely not the main character, the players are. Treat them as the protagonists of the story you are all weaving.

Objectively speaking, player power has gone up a bit with 2024... but so did the monsters (for the most part). The caster/martial divide is smaller now than it was (still leans caster unless you really limit the ability to long rest). 2024 was a great update with a few oddballs.

 As I said before. There is no statement that prevents of multiple spells as lvl 0 (cantrips) it states that you can do any action or instant during your attack action or bonus action. Like a character I had once made had a high armor that was also part cleric. And my character would attack to try to get the attention on him and then hold his bonus action to use as a reaction just in case. That way if my teammate is about to get hit by an heavy attack that's only two or less above his armor class I can cast shield of Faith to give him a plus two to his armor class to help him defend against it. That means bonus actions can be used for attacking with a spell just like a fighter can attack with his action and also attack with his bonus action. The book states that a level 1 spell can be used as an action but not as a bonus action. Which would mean cantrips because not specifically stated unable to be done can be home brewed to be able to be used as a bonus action. Going by that I allow them to do one spell and one can trip and I've only been choosing to do two can trips...

So as a way to balance that the magic that they're around is going to start causing chaos while using the cantrips.

 With respect, you don't seem to be reading the rules correctly. Bonus Actions and Actions are not interchangeable.

First, read the rules on casting times: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/spells#CastingTime

Spells are cast either as an Action OR a Bonus Action. Which it requires is part of the spell's definition. You can only use one "levelled spell" with a Spell Slot on your turn.

So you can ONLY cast two spells on your turn if:

• You cast one spell that can be cast as a Bonus Action (some spells are defined as requiring a Bonus Action, but some other effects such as a Sorcerer's "Quicken" Metamagic allow you to transform a Spell that normally takes an Action into a Bonus Action) AND
• You cast one spell that can be cast as an Action

Since you can only use one Spell Slot on your turn, it means ONE of the aforementioned spells must be cast without a Spell Slot (e.g. a cantrip or via some magic item).

I'm pretty sure there are no Bonus Action cantrips (?), so casting two cantrips per turn could only be done if you use "Quicken" Metamagic or some similar effect.

Second, Readying an Action doesn't change any of the above. Read https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/br-2024/rules-glossary#ReadyAction

The "Ready" action is an Action in itself. And it specifically says that to Ready a spell, that spell must have a casting time of one Action. Again, this is not interchangeable. The casting time of a spell is part of its definition.

 

 Quicken gives you the ability to do a spell quicker than what it is. As in ritual spell is now an action and an action is now instant... 

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

You can Ready in response to a trigger;

• Movement up to your Speed
• An action
• A spell with a casting time of an action

So if what you're trying to have readied isn't one of these, it's likely a houserule.

 I do not remember the exact name but I think it is shield of faith. Which is one action giving a plus two to the armor class you or somebody you cast it on.

Quote from TymptedToKMS >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

You can Ready in response to a trigger;

• Movement up to your Speed
• An action
• A spell with a casting time of an action

So if what you're trying to have readied isn't one of these, it's likely a houserule.

 I do not remember the exact name but I think it is shield of faith. Which is one action giving a plus two to the armor class you or somebody you cast it on.

Shield of Faith does do that, but it's cast as a bonus action, not an action, which means you can't use it with the Ready action.