Making Melee damage more even with Spellcasting

Quote from Wtfdndad >>

Not sure if you folks noticed but, the weapon abilities and attacks in 5.5 have pushes, slow, zero movement etc now. Very 4 E in my opinion.

 True, but with the abstract way DnD combat is set up I think this is inevitable. It seems there are only so many effects you can introduce that seriously impact combat for a martial.

What I recall from 4E that is different from 5E (and again, never played it or owned the books, just skimmed a couple of times, so I am not learned on this subject) is that there were a number of almost identical abilities between various different classes, whether caster or martial. My impression with 4E was that most classes could do very similar things. I feel like 5E went back to making the various classes feel more distinct in what they bring to the table, but I'm sure a lover of 4E would see it differently. 

Quote from Wtfdndad >>

If you talk traditional roles, a strong melee is going to go after a high HP targets that deal high damage as well. A caster is going to AoE and control groups, generally weaker mobs. Since we are in Discussion, I'm going to suggest Cleaving. If a melee goes into a group of weak targets, heavy hits continue to drop targets until all damage is done to something. Example 1, Barbarian swings a great axe for 30 points and takes out several Goblins in a single attack. Example 2, Rogue gets a sneak attack in the middle of that same group mentioned, performing a whirlwind of stabbings to reconcile the damage rolled. This damage spillover could work on spells AoE and high single target ones as well.

If you want a martial who does less damage over multiple attacks rather than going for big shots, you play a monk, or a dual wielding fighter. Giving that ability to barbs or rogues is just taking that niche away from other melee characters, not "catching up" to casters

The martial/caster divide in 5e has always been about utility, not about damage (and no, people do not forget about skills -- it's not like spellcaster don't have skills, and skills have pretty significant limits). There is, however, a separate melee/ranged balance issue, in that, if the DM doesn't go to special effort to make sure that most encounters occur at close ranges, melee is likely to be frequently useless because the fight never gets into melee range. Introducing something like 3e Charge and Sprint would help a bit.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

The martial/caster divide in 5e has always been about utility, not about damage (and no, people do not forget about skills -- it's not like spellcaster don't have skills, and skills have pretty significant limits). There is, however, a separate melee/ranged balance issue, in that, if the DM doesn't go to special effort to make sure that most encounters occur at close ranges, melee is likely to be frequently useless because the fight never gets into melee range. Introducing something like 3e Charge and Sprint would help a bit.

Sure, but my experience has been that usually encounters do kick off at a point where melee can readily come to grips, so I'm not sure it really takes a "special effort" to ensure it.

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >> 

Sure, but my experience has been that usually encounters do kick off at a point where melee can readily come to grips, so I'm not sure it really takes a "special effort" to ensure it.

Well, frequently the actual special effort is the DM making sure encounters occur at close ranges because otherwise their melee monsters are useless, but this runs into the other problem: when fighting monsters that are mostly melee, you don't want to get into melee at all. 

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Wtfdndad >>

If you talk traditional roles, a strong melee is going to go after a high HP targets that deal high damage as well. A caster is going to AoE and control groups, generally weaker mobs. Since we are in Discussion, I'm going to suggest Cleaving. If a melee goes into a group of weak targets, heavy hits continue to drop targets until all damage is done to something. Example 1, Barbarian swings a great axe for 30 points and takes out several Goblins in a single attack. Example 2, Rogue gets a sneak attack in the middle of that same group mentioned, performing a whirlwind of stabbings to reconcile the damage rolled. This damage spillover could work on spells AoE and high single target ones as well.

 

If you want a martial who does less damage over multiple attacks rather than going for big shots, you play a monk, or a dual wielding fighter. Giving that ability to barbs or rogues is just taking that niche away from other melee characters, not "catching up" to casters

 Not sure if you know so, you can see where I'm coming from, read below. We used it, we liked it. 

In D&D 5e, "Cleaving Through Creatures" is an optional rule in the Dungeon Master’s Guide designed to speed up combat against hordes. . 

@Caerwyn_Glyndwr I'm sorry that you get bored at the table. I didn't say anything about giving other melee classes Action Surge or even 3 extra attacks equal to the Fighter. I get bored when a class casts Power word kill and rolls and adds 12d12 together... BTW PWK kills instantly at 100 HP with no save. That's an extreme upgrade from 2014. Where's melee's benefit that comes close?
Thank you for agreeing on the feats. Here's the thing. DM's shouldn't have to homebrew feats. Some won't, I get that, they're dealing with a lot. I didn't even mention that Polearm Master's REACTION attack doesn't sync w/ Sentinel's opportunity attack movement speed reduction anymore. PaM, Sentinel, and Great Weapon Master all have an extra attack of some kind. They all say, "Immediately after you do something, then you can do something." No movement is allowed. That's a lot of nerfs for melee in Feats.
The Rage and the Great Weapon Master feat damage bonuses are even weighted toward the smaller numbers.
I wasn't questioning everything a caster has to go through and their limitations. We could give everyone Extra Attacks and drop the damage done to a single damage die. Man, would I be bored.
@Wagnarokkr The 2014 rules state under "Bonus Action", You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. I meant that. 2024 is only one spell slot use per turn.

BTW, I'm rewriting a post on the Spellfire and Zhentarim chain feats. I broke copyright by quoting them exactly. That's the biggest example of an unbalanced system that I can think of.

Quote from FoxMulder >>

@Caerwyn_Glyndwr I'm sorry that you get bored at the table. I didn't say anything about giving other melee classes Action Surge or even 3 extra attacks equal to the Fighter. I get bored when a class casts Power word kill and rolls and adds 12d12 together... BTW PWK kills instantly at 100 HP with no save. That's an extreme upgrade from 2014. Where's melee's benefit that comes close?

Most games aren't tier 4; yes, 9th level spells are busted, though PWK would hardly be my example, it's still a mediocre-to-bad spell by level 9 standards.

In terms of raw fighting power: martials generally outclass spellcasters in tier 1, often by significant margins, and are generally fine in tier 2. Most martials do have scaling issues in tier 3 and 4, and the only real solution to broken high level spells is to rewrite those spells to not be broken.

@Pantagruel666, I'm aware that PWK isn't the most powerful spell. I'm also aware that most campaigns don't make it past level 10. I was just in one that had a DM take over from another DM. Had a different map and same characters. We played, maybe, 2 sessions. We just started over completely.  I only used PWK because Fighter was an example used. I used it as an example of increasing melee damage. It was brought up again because someone will be bored when a Fighter take 8 actions per turn. Action Surge is throttled, BTW, as well.
Here's the thing. It's usually because kids get bored and want all the classes in 2 days. When I say kids, I mean under 60. Or a DM has issues with continuing a campaign. That doesn't mean that when we do play to level 20, we get screwed.

I mean, the spell progression starts slowing down at 3rd tier, so I think the performance gets overstated if the encounters are scaling properly with them- 5th level slots don't progress further until level 18, so it's a whopping 2 extra spells per day by level 13. And this is also the tier where LR's and Magic Resistance become common. Yes, if it's just a bunch of scrub encounters and a BBEG there's a chance the casters can drop some big dice, but throw two or three heavy encounters in without a Long Rest and it evens out a lot.

Having spent years DMing at tier 4, including over a year DMing level 20 characters, I feel fairly comfortable saying anyone who uses PWK as an example has either not played much time at tier 4, or did so with a DM who did not understand DMing at that level.  As a DM, I would be giddy if someone wasted a ninth level slot on such a terrible spell.

A high level fighter properly equipped can easily deal more than 100 damage with their turn, without even spending the significant resource of a Ninth level spell slot.  High Level Barbarians can churn out significant damage while taking a lot of hits.  Rogues and Monks get a number of ways to deal significant damage or influence the battlefield in small, but significant ways.  Often, these small abilities Melee classes get are more effective than spells - they are enough to turn the tide of battle in the aggregate, but not worth burning a LR on, as Ace_of_Rogues alluded to (with the exception of Stunning Strike, which is often a must save and the best, low-cost way to eat LRs in the entire game).

You also ignore the fact all melee classes get defensive abilities Casters do not.  Indomitable, Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Monk deflections… All tools that become quite important at high level play that ensure your melee characters can keep going.

In an actual game, where the DM knows what they are doing with encounter design, resource taxing, and loot, this works out extremely well. It ensures every player has a part to play in combat that feels unique and works toward the group’s victory.  Melee combatants hold the line and can take hits while consistently churning out damage.  Spellcasters can make flashy effects when needed, but can be easily taken down.

I will briefly touch on the lengthy turn thing - as anyone who has actually played at tier four knows, a fighter or monk making 9 attacks, often with damage boosting weapons, is a long time watching mechanics play out.  Show me a player who says “I’ve played at high tiers, and no one at my table has ever gotten glazed eyes on the third turn in a row of the monk rolling a million dice” and I’ll show you a liar or someone who cannot read the other players.

One last aside, the derisive dismissal of human nature and your accusation that under 60 is a “kid” who gets bored easily (having DMed for folks in their 60s, I can confidently say “wow, will this Monk’s turn ever end?” is not just a young phenomenon), there is a level of passive aggressiveness in your posts you should really work on if you want to have an actual discussion.