Dark Sun: an interesting and polemic setting

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

(Answering The Ace of Rogues' post).

What an interesting reflection. I totally see your point. It's a dark world and its society has been vilely twisted. The situations that stem from that kind of world are difficult to swallow for us, using our moral glasses. It would be interesting to morally test players, wouldn't it? Of course, in my opinion, not tollerating sadic behaviour that could make other players uncomfortable.

You made me reflect with your post. Thank you very much for your interesting perspective!

I'm honestly becoming more and more excited about this setting due to your fantastic answers. Thank you!

Their point is just a prettied up version of the apologetics I knew would come (and I have kept my word on my reaction to that)

The examples I provided are non-diegetic ones, they're not passing a commentary on the harshness of the world. The books have not said in clear fashion "The world is harsh and many have had their perceptions twisted in face of that harshness to believe slavery is justifiable". What the books have said is "The world is harsh and therefore slavery is justifiable". They don't present this attitude as one of a distorted attitude of reality, but of a clear albeit extreme one.

That is the issue and that's what the apologists end up trying to gloss over.

If the new Dark Sun book comes out and says something to the effect of

"The world of Athas is a harsh one, where survival is a constant fight. Those that live on the edge of life and death have had their perceptions of right and wrong twisted, warped by the constant struggle. Many, even entire cities, believe the lies of necessary evil, that slavery is better than death, that cruelty is a means to an end. When there is no food or water to swallow, a lie will do instead"

I would be "fine" with that—acknowledging it's not a truth but instead a perversion of it. But old Dark Sun never does that, at least not as often as it does present the grotesque metacommentary lie that at some point you can justify evil.

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from GnollitAll78450 >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from GnollitAll78450 >>

Good Lard, where to start on this.
Ok, Taboo subjects that feature prominently in the setting.

Slavery.
Eugenics.
Mass experimentation on unwilling people.
Cannibalism.  
Social divides based on birth status.
Atheism. ( which was Taboo at the time. Not so much now.)
The sheer level of Gleeful brutality of the setting.

While most of these aren't treated as good things, and are in fact presented as being rather bad, their handling was sometimes sensationalist and a little tawdry, though that is stylistically in sync with its inspirations like the Conan Novels by Robert E Howard, the Zothique cycle stories of Clark Ashton Smith, Mad max, and other such works, it did rub some people the wrong way.
There is an explicitly Environmentalist message about the misuse of knowledge, it was rather buried in the moment to moment experience of the setting which played more like a playground of brutality unless the DM took steps to make the environmental message more clear.
Also there is the aspect of it being a radical departure from the high fantasy settings of Greyhawk and Forgotten realms.

It is not beyond saving, but even as an edgy pre-teen who did read Conan novels, the 1992 release box was a little 'yikes dude.' 

As to why people wanted it back for so long, including me, it had a lot of potential and it was different enough to be a breath of fresh air. Plus that was when Psionics really took off as a mechanic front and center.
It is also a perfect setting for a campaign about organizing to stomp out Tyrannical environment destroying despot. Which i feel like a lot of people would want these days.

 

Very interesting. I do appreciate your post. It added a lot of information about this new setting. Thank you! 😊

My questions are:

Can Athas be saved from its destruction? 

How advanced Athas' society is, technologically speaking?

 
I think it can be saved from destruction, though I might be in the minority for this opinion. 

Arthas has not advanced technologically; it regressed from what I remember.  Lots of weapons made from bone, stone, and bronze in you are lucky. I think steel was rare and usually left over from kingdoms from before the ecological collapse. 
There is little plant life for fuel, so even bronze weapons were rare. I am also trying to remember stuff from the mid 90s which was the last time I played in a Darksun game so i might be a little off on some things.

 

Oh, I see. I was confused, because some of the Dark Sun artwork they showed at Gen Con had spaceships and stuff.

 

By the way, do you know why the sun looks like a donut?

 

Thank you again!

 
The sun is supposed to be burning out, or dimmed. Thus the name of the setting, "Darksun."
There are lore reasons that i don't remember at all for why it was like that, and as a kid i thought it was supposed to be a Red Dwarf stage of a star.

Quote from Davyd >>

The best way I could describe Dark Sun would be as follows: Dark Sun is to Mad Max/post apocalyptic fiction and fantasy what Eberron is to Steampunk/Magepunk. It's a setting where the world is dying and survival is your only concern. Magic corrupts the world through every spell and invocation, evil reigns supreme, and life is harsh at best and cruel at worst. That's the sparknotes version

 

x

Everything you said here is true, although the idea and inspiration for the setting is actually a specific comic series, Den of Earth. It was comic series by Richard Corben, and a segment of the 1980 Heavy Metal animated movie, and an animated short in 1968.  

The protaganist Den (Dan) awakes on another world as  7 foot tall super powerful bald barbarian. R rated and X rated "hijinks" happen. The comic was grim dark on a desert world. 

Darksun is almost a 1 to 1 parrell to the Den of Earth setting. 

Quote from Davyd >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

(Answering The Ace of Rogues' post).

What an interesting reflection. I totally see your point. It's a dark world and its society has been vilely twisted. The situations that stem from that kind of world are difficult to swallow for us, using our moral glasses. It would be interesting to morally test players, wouldn't it? Of course, in my opinion, not tollerating sadic behaviour that could make other players uncomfortable.

You made me reflect with your post. Thank you very much for your interesting perspective!

I'm honestly becoming more and more excited about this setting due to your fantastic answers. Thank you!

Their point is just a prettied up version of the apologetics I knew would come (and I have kept my word on my reaction to that)

The examples I provided are non-diegetic ones, they're not passing a commentary on the harshness of the world. The books have not said in clear fashion "The world is harsh and many have had their perceptions twisted in face of that harshness to believe slavery is justifiable". What the books have said is "The world is harsh and therefore slavery is justifiable". They don't present this attitude as one of a distorted attitude of reality, but of a clear albeit extreme one.

That is the issue and that's what the apologists end up trying to gloss over.

If the new Dark Sun book comes out and says something to the effect of

"The world of Athas is a harsh one, where survival is a constant fight. Those that live on the edge of life and death have had their perceptions of right and wrong twisted, warped by the constant struggle. Many, even entire cities, believe the lies of necessary evil, that slavery is better than death, that cruelty is a means to an end. When there is no food or water to swallow, a lie will do instead"

I would be "fine" with that—acknowledging it's not a truth but instead a perversion of it. But old Dark Sun never does that, at least not as often as it does present the grotesque metacommentary lie that at some point you can justify evil.

 
So, is the issue that they need to include a “this is a work of fiction featuring X, Y, and Z for dramatic purposes” disclaimer- as I repeatedly did in my analysis, I will point out?

Quote from Davyd >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

(Answering The Ace of Rogues' post).

What an interesting reflection. I totally see your point. It's a dark world and its society has been vilely twisted. The situations that stem from that kind of world are difficult to swallow for us, using our moral glasses. It would be interesting to morally test players, wouldn't it? Of course, in my opinion, not tollerating sadic behaviour that could make other players uncomfortable.

You made me reflect with your post. Thank you very much for your interesting perspective!

I'm honestly becoming more and more excited about this setting due to your fantastic answers. Thank you!

Their point is just a prettied up version of the apologetics I knew would come (and I have kept my word on my reaction to that)

The examples I provided are non-diegetic ones, they're not passing a commentary on the harshness of the world. The books have not said in clear fashion "The world is harsh and many have had their perceptions twisted in face of that harshness to believe slavery is justifiable". What the books have said is "The world is harsh and therefore slavery is justifiable". They don't present this attitude as one of a distorted attitude of reality, but of a clear albeit extreme one.

That is the issue and that's what the apologists end up trying to gloss over.

If the new Dark Sun book comes out and says something to the effect of

"The world of Athas is a harsh one, where survival is a constant fight. Those that live on the edge of life and death have had their perceptions of right and wrong twisted, warped by the constant struggle. Many, even entire cities, believe the lies of necessary evil, that slavery is better than death, that cruelty is a means to an end. When there is no food or water to swallow, a lie will do instead"

I would be "fine" with that—acknowledging it's not a truth but instead a perversion of it. But old Dark Sun never does that, at least not as often as it does present the grotesque metacommentary lie that at some point you can justify evil.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. The world is harsh, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse to justify slavery.

It's more or less like playing a roleplaying game set in the Ancient Greece: there will be slaves, since slavery was part of that society, but that shouldn't be an excuse for toxic behaviours that would lead to a praising of slavery.

Quote from GnollitAll78450 >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from GnollitAll78450 >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from GnollitAll78450 >>

Good Lard, where to start on this.
Ok, Taboo subjects that feature prominently in the setting.

Slavery.
Eugenics.
Mass experimentation on unwilling people.
Cannibalism.  
Social divides based on birth status.
Atheism. ( which was Taboo at the time. Not so much now.)
The sheer level of Gleeful brutality of the setting.

While most of these aren't treated as good things, and are in fact presented as being rather bad, their handling was sometimes sensationalist and a little tawdry, though that is stylistically in sync with its inspirations like the Conan Novels by Robert E Howard, the Zothique cycle stories of Clark Ashton Smith, Mad max, and other such works, it did rub some people the wrong way.
There is an explicitly Environmentalist message about the misuse of knowledge, it was rather buried in the moment to moment experience of the setting which played more like a playground of brutality unless the DM took steps to make the environmental message more clear.
Also there is the aspect of it being a radical departure from the high fantasy settings of Greyhawk and Forgotten realms.

It is not beyond saving, but even as an edgy pre-teen who did read Conan novels, the 1992 release box was a little 'yikes dude.' 

As to why people wanted it back for so long, including me, it had a lot of potential and it was different enough to be a breath of fresh air. Plus that was when Psionics really took off as a mechanic front and center.
It is also a perfect setting for a campaign about organizing to stomp out Tyrannical environment destroying despot. Which i feel like a lot of people would want these days.

 

Very interesting. I do appreciate your post. It added a lot of information about this new setting. Thank you! 😊

My questions are:

Can Athas be saved from its destruction? 

How advanced Athas' society is, technologically speaking?

 
I think it can be saved from destruction, though I might be in the minority for this opinion. 

Arthas has not advanced technologically; it regressed from what I remember.  Lots of weapons made from bone, stone, and bronze in you are lucky. I think steel was rare and usually left over from kingdoms from before the ecological collapse. 
There is little plant life for fuel, so even bronze weapons were rare. I am also trying to remember stuff from the mid 90s which was the last time I played in a Darksun game so i might be a little off on some things.

 

Oh, I see. I was confused, because some of the Dark Sun artwork they showed at Gen Con had spaceships and stuff.

 

By the way, do you know why the sun looks like a donut?

 

Thank you again!

 
The sun is supposed to be burning out, or dimmed. Thus the name of the setting, "Darksun."
There are lore reasons that i don't remember at all for why it was like that, and as a kid i thought it was supposed to be a Red Dwarf stage of a star.

Pretty interesting. Thank you again for your time! 😊

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

 

x

 

 

You gave me a pretty solid picture of the setting. Thank you very much for your time, I do appreciate it.

It sounds quite interesting, and I understand the polemic around this setting. It is brutal, savage and vile, but that shouldn't mean it should portray slavery as a good thing. 

I have a few questions:

Are there any "good" factions in this world that try to heal it or save it somehow? Or is it a huge "battle royal" where everybody just tries to survive?

Are there any other worlds appart from Athas?

Where can I read more about this setting? Are there any books?

 

Thanks again for your answer!

Good factions, technically yes there are Persevers but they are more Nuetral Evil fighting to save green spaces. Think every eco terrorist but with psionic powers and can turn into weird bat humaniod monsters. 

When there is little food, high heat almost no water, and the few green spaces are protected by some of the most visious sentiences you can imagine, it is basically a battle royal, with a side of the gods vanished because it was too grimm for them. 

In the old crystal sphere lore, Arthas was cut off and locked before the gods vanished. No one comes in, no one gets out. Except the occasional hero to falls into a portal and gets turned into a massive bald hero. 

There is a dedicated wiki, multiple books spanning AD&D, 3.0, 3.5, and even 4th ed. 

The one issue I have with the inclusion of Dark Sun in 5th, Clerics and most Magic. No gods, means no Clerics, because using magic destroys the planet, only the very powerful ie Sorcerer Kings can use magic otherwise the people will just kill you and probably consume you. The only powers people allow are psionic powers. 

Quote from gothicshark >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

 

x

 

 

You gave me a pretty solid picture of the setting. Thank you very much for your time, I do appreciate it.

It sounds quite interesting, and I understand the polemic around this setting. It is brutal, savage and vile, but that shouldn't mean it should portray slavery as a good thing. 

I have a few questions:

Are there any "good" factions in this world that try to heal it or save it somehow? Or is it a huge "battle royal" where everybody just tries to survive?

Are there any other worlds appart from Athas?

Where can I read more about this setting? Are there any books?

 

Thanks again for your answer!

 

Good factions, technically yes there are Persevers but they are more Nuetral Evil fighting to save green spaces. Think every eco terrorist but with psionic powers and can turn into weird bat humaniod monsters. 

When there is little food, high heat almost no water, and the few green spaces are protected by some of the most visious sentiences you can imagine, it is basically a battle royal, with a side of the gods vanished because it was too grimm for them. 

In the old crystal sphere lore, Arthas was cut off and locked before the gods vanished. No one comes in, no one gets out. Except the occasional hero to falls into a portal and gets turned into a massive bald hero. 

There is a dedicated wiki, multiple books spanning AD&D, 3.0, 3.5, and even 4th ed. 

The one issue I have with the inclusion of Dark Sun in 5th, Clerics and most Magic. No gods, means no Clerics, because using magic destroys the planet, only the very powerful ie Sorcerer Kings can use magic otherwise the people will just kill you and probably consume you. The only powers people allow are psionic powers. 

I like the Preserves. 🤭 hahaha

Thank you very much for your explanation and information. 😊

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

So those who use magic in this world are accelerating its dead and are, therefore, evil? Or does it depend on the kind of magic you use?

The dragons of Dark Sun work like Forgotten Realms dragons? (Chromatic bad, metallic good).

 

Thank you very much for answering! ❤️

All the good dragons were killed off eons ago, about the same time the Gods vanished. Most Dragons in the setting are actually former Human Wizards who used powerful magics to become dragons, they are usually called Sorcerer Kings. The old art of them was really good. 

Also no such thing as a good use of Magic on Athas. Even the socalled good faction is rather evil, as the best way to save the world is to kill cities. 

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from GnollitAll78450 >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from GnollitAll78450 >>

Good Lard, where to start on this.
Ok, Taboo subjects that feature prominently in the setting.

Slavery.
Eugenics.
Mass experimentation on unwilling people.
Cannibalism.  
Social divides based on birth status.
Atheism. ( which was Taboo at the time. Not so much now.)
The sheer level of Gleeful brutality of the setting.

While most of these aren't treated as good things, and are in fact presented as being rather bad, their handling was sometimes sensationalist and a little tawdry, though that is stylistically in sync with its inspirations like the Conan Novels by Robert E Howard, the Zothique cycle stories of Clark Ashton Smith, Mad max, and other such works, it did rub some people the wrong way.
There is an explicitly Environmentalist message about the misuse of knowledge, it was rather buried in the moment to moment experience of the setting which played more like a playground of brutality unless the DM took steps to make the environmental message more clear.
Also there is the aspect of it being a radical departure from the high fantasy settings of Greyhawk and Forgotten realms.

It is not beyond saving, but even as an edgy pre-teen who did read Conan novels, the 1992 release box was a little 'yikes dude.' 

As to why people wanted it back for so long, including me, it had a lot of potential and it was different enough to be a breath of fresh air. Plus that was when Psionics really took off as a mechanic front and center.
It is also a perfect setting for a campaign about organizing to stomp out Tyrannical environment destroying despot. Which i feel like a lot of people would want these days.

 

Very interesting. I do appreciate your post. It added a lot of information about this new setting. Thank you! 😊

My questions are:

Can Athas be saved from its destruction? 

How advanced Athas' society is, technologically speaking?

 
I think it can be saved from destruction, though I might be in the minority for this opinion. 

Arthas has not advanced technologically; it regressed from what I remember.  Lots of weapons made from bone, stone, and bronze in you are lucky. I think steel was rare and usually left over from kingdoms from before the ecological collapse. 
There is little plant life for fuel, so even bronze weapons were rare. I am also trying to remember stuff from the mid 90s which was the last time I played in a Darksun game so i might be a little off on some things.

 

Oh, I see. I was confused, because some of the Dark Sun artwork they showed at Gen Con had spaceships and stuff.

 

By the way, do you know why the sun looks like a donut?

 

Thank you again!

 Are you sure it's not just crazy airships. Athas is technically a Sci-Fi setting, based on the Sword and Planet type of Sci-Fi. Big floating sky ships are often found in such settings, also floating sky cities. 

As I understand it the setting is basically in 40K territory- from the “big picture” perspective it’s all over but the screaming and the most merciful thing might be to pull the plug altogether rather than drag it out, but understandably most civilians would still be as opposed to that proposition as their psychotic evil overlords would. It’s one of those “you don’t really win, just keep surviving” deals. As I’ve said, not really a fan- they should have just bit the bullet and rebooted to a Fallout-style setting- the games, not the show, something that emphasizes that while it’s got a ways to go, things are on the mend.

Quote from gothicshark >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

So those who use magic in this world are accelerating its dead and are, therefore, evil? Or does it depend on the kind of magic you use?

The dragons of Dark Sun work like Forgotten Realms dragons? (Chromatic bad, metallic good).

 

Thank you very much for answering! ❤️

 

All the good dragons were killed off eons ago, about the same time the Gods vanished. Most Dragons in the setting are actually former Human Wizards who used powerful magics to become dragons, they are usually called Sorcerer Kings. The old art of them was really good. 

Also no such thing as a good use of Magic on Athas. Even the socalled good faction is rather evil, as the best way to save the world is to kill cities. 

Amazing lore! Thank you again.

Regarding the spaceship, you are totally right! I've checked again the picture and it's not an spaceship, just a weird looking building hahaha (it's the first picture showed in this post, scrolling down a little bit: https://www.polygon.com/dnd-dark-sun-dungeons-dragons-return/).

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>My questions are:

Can Athas be saved from its destruction? 

 

 
By the end of the pentalogy book series, yes, but many don't agree with the last book

I have another question: what's the dragon-like monster that appears in the Edge of Oblivion cover? It reminds me to a Warhammer Lord of Change.

If I had to guess, that’s probably the only dragon on Athas: the Dragon of Tyr, formerly known as Borys of Ebe, the Sorcerer-King of Ur Draxa, the reason why Athas no longer has dwarves, and likely the most powerful mage and Psion in the setting.

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

I have another question: what's the dragon-like monster that appears in the Edge of Oblivion cover? It reminds me to a Warhammer Lord of Change.

 That was once a human, it is a Sorcerer King, throught the use of the most vile ceremonies, with thousands killed, and the consuption of a Dragon, the Wizard became a dragon, he's like a lich, but instead of undead he's a Dragon. Most cities on Athas have a Sorcerer king ruling over them. The cover Art Sorcerer King is almost always King Borys of Ur Draxa. All Sorcerer Kings have found immortality, not all became dragons. 

Quote from gothicshark >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

I have another question: what's the dragon-like monster that appears in the Edge of Oblivion cover? It reminds me to a Warhammer Lord of Change.

 That was once a human, it is a Sorcerer King, throught the use of the most vile ceremonies, with thousands killed, and the consuption of a Dragon, the Wizard became a dragon, he's like a lich, but instead of undead he's a Dragon. Most cities on Athas have a Sorcerer king ruling over them. The cover Art Sorcerer King is almost always King Borys of Ur Draxa. All Sorcerer Kings have found immortality, not all became dragons. 

Wow, that's so badass!!! Bloody hell, I can't wait to read the new setting books!! 😍

It’s certainly something.

One other part that no one’s mentioned is the scarcity of everything. In game terms, it can really matter. Weapons break. Armor breaks. The default assumption is that there is no food or water available. 
In game, it means the PCs really need to track gear, and their encumbrance really, really matters. You are left with choices between carrying an extra spear, (because you know yours will break sooner or later) or carrying an extra day’s worth of food.

When it first came out in 2e, they recommended starting at level 3 (first time it was officially suggested not to start at 1, iirc) because level 1 or 2 characters would be too fragile to live. They also suggested making 3 characters to start, because it was very lethal, which in the 1/2e era was really saying something. 

Also with psionics, everyone has some. There were psionicists, yes, but every PC had at least 1 minor power.

Quote from Xalthu >>

One other part that no one’s mentioned is the scarcity of everything. In game terms, it can really matter. Weapons break. Armor breaks. The default assumption is that there is no food or water available. 
In game, it means the PCs really need to track gear, and their encumbrance really, really matters. You are left with choices between carrying an extra spear, (because you know yours will break sooner or later) or carrying an extra day’s worth of food.

When it first came out in 2e, they recommended starting at level 3 (first time it was officially suggested not to start at 1, iirc) because level 1 or 2 characters would be too fragile to live. They also suggested making 3 characters to start, because it was very lethal, which in the 1/2e era was really saying something. 

Tomb of Annihilation vibes hahaha