The Nature of Treasure and Money

This is more of a general discussion about Treasure in D&D and how it relates to a bunch of human and character activities including crafting and suchlike. 

I do note that D&D by and large treats treasure like candy. Literally, it is like candy and characters are like children. To be fair, this is a very classic way in which heroes and adventurers behave, which is why they're in the predicaments they're usually in, so it is useful to think of it that way. By this, I mean that in D&D, treasure and gold is things OTHERS have or can grant and you adventure to get it. Once you get it, you get GOODIES in the form of magic items or whatever item or thing you desire and that's what money and treasure represents.

This is the perspective in which players themselves might think of money. Many folks are children, so it is natural for them to think this way. Also many folks are average wage earners who also don't usually need to think too much about what money is other than what their wages and bank accounts reflect. Many adults may think of money as a good or a thing that represents a good or value, and that's what money is to them. If that's as far as that goes, then yes, that's fine.

What money actually represents is power. Actual, real power in the realest of the senses. It is kingship. It's merchants. It's the ability to raise an army and establish a stronghold. It is the ability to tell people to do what you want them to do, and then they do it. In this sense, money is limited both by whether or not people are susceptible to be influenced in this way, but also by the relative amounts of power other people have. That is, not only does a small village lack the gold liquidity to purchase a ton of things, they also wouldn't be particularly interested in 700 swords because none of them really need that. They're not merchants who can sell the swords you're selling, and they're not dukes who might need it to outfit an army.

A player who is asking after how much money their character can make during downtime by crafting things is operating on the candy level. They're not seeing money for what it actually is, and if you're not creating a world beyond a candystore, more gold can seem more and more useless the more a character gets insane amounts of it. Once you've bought everything in the candy store that you want, the money becomes useless.

The real answer to the player's question, of course, is that they're trying to make money by practicing a profession. Whether they want to make things, or perform services for people, or what-have-you, they're trying to extract purchasing power from society by bartering the skills and capabilities their character's possess. The rules for that isn't covered by the crafting rules - those are for creating personal items the PCs will use. For making money, you use Downtime Activities - practicing a profession. You get 1 gp per day normally by practicing a profession. Belonging to an organization such as a Wizard Circle, Thieves' Guild, Weaver's Guild, or temple get you 2 gp per day because you are borrowing the organization's power and influence to get more for the same labor. NOT belonging to them is conversely very bad because guilds are historically very jealous about the practice of professions and you simply can't be making as much money as the nearest guild member or they're going to ask their guild to shut you down.

By the time they're 5-10th level, I think DMs should be introducing the idea that PCs are starting to significantly alter things in their society not only using their personalities and face to face personal influence, but also simply by virtue of how they spend and make their money. In this sense, 3000 gold pieces doesn't merely represent buying power they can use to purchase personal magic items, but the ability to commission a boat that can alter the economy of a small seaside village. This is particularly appropriate if you're using Bastion Rules because a bunch of 5th level adventurers who have Bastions and Followers are creating and offering services that would not always be available in villages, and wouldn't be numerous even in small towns. Your Fighter's Barracks could represent the only significant private armed force in a small town that isn't part of the local constabulary and you can bet your ass the Mayor is going to be talking to you about it. Your 12 Barracks Defenders is a bonafide Infantry Squad which is a legitimately basic army-sized unit of force.

I understand that this can be scary to DMs, but the purchasing activities of a party of 8th level characters SHOULD change your world map. 3rd level adventurers open their purses at the Magic Shop salivating over goodies. 8th level adventurers store their wealth in banks and guilds and they think about what they should be purchasing by looking at the world map.

Realism, in the world of Summoning Dinosaurs & Custard Damage, is fairly nonexistent.

But I get what you're alluding to.

As a quick starting note - and I am going to assume this is not your intention - your post inadvertently comes off as extremely condescending.  Telling your readers that they’re most likely children or as simply “don’t think about” the same concepts as you; that they exist in a world of “candyshops” and that you’re going to give these folks some great insight?  Surely you can see why that comes off as incredibly dismissive.

Moreover, you then preface the substantive context of your post with a “grand insight” that is really more a cliche.  If you are going to present your thread as a revelation of something most folks do not think about, “money = power” is something most folks do, in fact, think about.  It is almost an unavoidable piece of information in the modern day.

Moving past the dicta to the substance of your thread, I have been playing for quite some time, and think a lot of what you are saying here is common knowledge.  Almost every single DM and player I have ever played with recognizes that gold has influence beyond simply allowing the purchase of gear.  Bribes. Purchasing property, both before and through the bastion rules for upgrading.  Vehicles and mounts. Random luxury accommodations.  Investments in critical infrastructure. Restitution for problems the party caused or were involved in.

The only times I have seen players not use their wealth in the manner you mention in your post has nothing to do with the reasons you ascribe.  The first situation is simply DMs who lack experience and know how to balance money; the second is players who come from gaming backgrounds where your options are not quite as unlimited, and thus they do not understand that a lack of rule does not mean you can do the thing.

Yet, even acknowledging that, your post still makes two fundamentally flawed assumptions. 

The first is your level ranges are a bit off.  Under the traditionally recognized tier breakdown, a level 8 character absolutely should not be considering the world map.  At that point, they are still very much in the “hero of the realm” tier - and not even beginning to surpass that point.  They might have some significant influence, but they’re likely not looking outside of their greater region yet.

Second, in relying on the cliche “money is power” you ignore the nuance of reality.  Money can contribute to buying power, but power is a far more esoteric concept.  Take an adventuring party.  Their value to a kingdom is not their wealth, but in their ability to stop threats the regular government cannot.  Yes, the party could buy a boat and get some standing in a town. As could any wealthy merchant.  But where the party is unique is their ability to kill monsters, stop plots, and save the day.  

Wanting to spend that gold on magic items and equipment is hardly a candy store mentality - that is the player choosing to invest in the unique value they offer, which, in turn, can increase their power.  After all, surviving a dragonslaying quest because you bought a rare healing potion instead of a boat is going to have a far greater impact on both the kingdom and the player’s power.

Which leads me to my final point: The are very few wrong ways to play D&D.  Choosing to place your purchasing power in improving your character is not one of them.  Choosing to do so does not mean the player is somehow missing some kind of big picture. Or that they’re somehow missing the most obvious cliche in the book.  Or that they’re more like kids in a candy shop than adults focused on a big picture. They’re playing the game in the way they want to, and, in a way that can sometimes reach similar or better power outcomes than some of what you present here. 

Likewise, spending your money on non-adventuring gear is perfectly fine.  There can be absolutely delightful campaign moments that result from this kind of expenditure, as well as long-term dividends that might be beneficial to the party. 

There are few wrong ways to play D&D.. but lecturing others for fairly mundane game choices very well may be one of them. 

I commonly play cleric and Druid and do a lot of the healing and support, and that also mean, I go through money fast when dealing with diseases, other medical disorders like exhaustion or even extra planar foes. That is if you can find the components in shops, supporting a party gets expensive, and that isn't counting potions i purchase for my group. 
The consumed component really start to add up. 

Protection from Evil and Good: 25 GP per use.

Revivify: 300GP per use.

Greater Restoration: 100GP per use

Raise Dead: 500 GP per use.

Heroes' Feast: 1,000 GP per use.

Resurrection: 1,000 GP per use.

True Resurrection: 25,000 GP per use.

And that isn't even an exhaustive list.  In my case, Money=power in a more literal sense. I can't cast a lot of my most needed spells when i need them, if i don't get cash to spend on components. 
So no, it isn't like Candy to players, it is the ability to do perform my role. I have more than once spent ALL my money on components when going through dangerous areas and was STILL short and had to barrow diamonds from my party to raise them.
I would love to be able to cut down on the accounting, but component costs don't let me.

Some further thoughts from the peanut gallery.

1) the real problems with treasures (including gold) are carrying it all (if you can't find/create a reliable bank) and (as a DM) removing it from your players after awarding it. (without unbalancing the game with high powered (and priced) magic at lower levels).

2) waaaaay back in 1e both of these were solved by having the PCs pay for training each time they leveled up. somewhat sadly this concept is long gone.

3) In my current campaign - at least in some parts of the world there are recuring level based taxes and guild fees that characters need to pay if they want to stay legal. (and the legal enforcers are sufficiently powerful that staying legal can make sense.

4) Using taxes and things like components You should be able to bring kept treasures more in line with things like the split between IBM's 2025 revenues (67.7 B) and net profits (@10 B). so actually keeping about 1/6th to 1/7th of what they bring in gross.

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

As a quick starting note - and I am going to assume this is not your intention - your post inadvertently comes off as extremely condescending.  Telling your readers that they’re most likely children or as simply “don’t think about” the same concepts as you; that they exist in a world of “candyshops” and that you’re going to give these folks some great insight?  Surely you can see why that comes off as incredibly dismissive.

Moreover, you then preface the substantive context of your post with a “grand insight” that is really more a cliche.  If you are going to present your thread as a revelation of something most folks do not think about, “money = power” is something most folks do, in fact, think about.  It is almost an unavoidable piece of information in the modern day.

Moving past the dicta to the substance of your thread, I have been playing for quite some time, and think a lot of what you are saying here is common knowledge.  Almost every single DM and player I have ever played with recognizes that gold has influence beyond simply allowing the purchase of gear.  Bribes. Purchasing property, both before and through the bastion rules for upgrading.  Vehicles and mounts. Random luxury accommodations.  Investments in critical infrastructure. Restitution for problems the party caused or were involved in.

The only times I have seen players not use their wealth in the manner you mention in your post has nothing to do with the reasons you ascribe.  The first situation is simply DMs who lack experience and know how to balance money; the second is players who come from gaming backgrounds where your options are not quite as unlimited, and thus they do not understand that a lack of rule does not mean you can do the thing.

Yet, even acknowledging that, your post still makes two fundamentally flawed assumptions. 

The first is your level ranges are a bit off.  Under the traditionally recognized tier breakdown, a level 8 character absolutely should not be considering the world map.  At that point, they are still very much in the “hero of the realm” tier - and not even beginning to surpass that point.  They might have some significant influence, but they’re likely not looking outside of their greater region yet.

Second, in relying on the cliche “money is power” you ignore the nuance of reality.  Money can contribute to buying power, but power is a far more esoteric concept.  Take an adventuring party.  Their value to a kingdom is not their wealth, but in their ability to stop threats the regular government cannot.  Yes, the party could buy a boat and get some standing in a town. As could any wealthy merchant.  But where the party is unique is their ability to kill monsters, stop plots, and save the day.  

Wanting to spend that gold on magic items and equipment is hardly a candy store mentality - that is the player choosing to invest in the unique value they offer, which, in turn, can increase their power.  After all, surviving a dragonslaying quest because you bought a rare healing potion instead of a boat is going to have a far greater impact on both the kingdom and the player’s power.

Which leads me to my final point: The are very few wrong ways to play D&D.  Choosing to place your purchasing power in improving your character is not one of them.  Choosing to do so does not mean the player is somehow missing some kind of big picture. Or that they’re somehow missing the most obvious cliche in the book.  Or that they’re more like kids in a candy shop than adults focused on a big picture. They’re playing the game in the way they want to, and, in a way that can sometimes reach similar or better power outcomes than some of what you present here. 

Likewise, spending your money on non-adventuring gear is perfectly fine.  There can be absolutely delightful campaign moments that result from this kind of expenditure, as well as long-term dividends that might be beneficial to the party. 

There are few wrong ways to play D&D.. but lecturing others for fairly mundane game choices very well may be one of them. 

Broadly, I would say that one of the wrong ways to play D&D is if you're not having fun with it. You can have a wide variety of experiences, but they should all be some form of amusmement, entertainmeny, or activity that we all enjoy. And yes, I do often come off as a supercilious, condescending bastard. I've given up expecting to make it better since I'm 50+ now so whatever my ongoing efforts about my personal failings will do, they will do and that's the end of it.

Basically, what I'm saying is that if gold starts to feel worthless and boring in your game and that feels wrong to you, there are ways to address that issue.

I'd like to address the two points you've raised regarding the substantive portion of my post, and I hope we can all have a productive thread and disccusion. :)

The first is the level range. Levels 5-10 is the range at which PCs are Heroes of the Realm. The next tier is MASTERS of the Realm. By the time they're level 11, they're well on their way to being Archamges and Kings. They're been altering the world map for a while at that point, surely. Level 5 is when they start doing that, and the most obvious way they do that is because that's the level the DMG recommends introducing Bastions as a mechanic, which is unequivocably an aspect of player power and agency that ties directly to society and how they relate to it. Renown is also starting to be significant at this level range, if that mechanic is also in play. I chose level 8 as the point at which they're shopping for things to change on the map purely on the 1e conceit that level 9 is "Name Level" so that's when you get to be called Lord or whatever. They may or may not looking outside of their home region, but their activities should be altering that region fairly significantly before they reach level 10.

The second point is fair, but I would say that adventurers wouldn't be "employees" or "subordinates" to a kingdom, inasmuch as a kingdom is the sort of political entity that it is - which is basically a barely civilized warlord realm. Might makes right and the king's word is law. All that. Whether adventurers are even of value to a kingdom is in question here, because they could very easily be harmful to a kingdom, or harmful to its rulers, even if they're benneficial to the kingdom. The ruling elites of such a political structure would seek to exploit them, but they would also seek to study, analyze, and obligate them or win their loyalty or allegiance. This is because such rulers are typically astute political actors and they can clearly see when someone is a political threat, and the PCs will absolutely be that at this level range.

If they have value to a kingdom, it may be in their ability to be a lethal threat to a monster or enemy force, but that may or may not be true. Plant Growth is a spell that all-but-guarantees a bountiful harvest in the coming season and PCs get that at this level range. That's a far more reliable source of proactive value to a king or lord. It's not very relevant to a game of D&D directly, but that's the sort of thinking a king or lord would engage in. A Rogue would get Reliable Talent - basically the ability to pull off remarkable feats of skill at the drop of a hat. That could be immensely valuable at a negotiating table during international councils or parleys and another nation is usually a more common source of worry or interaction to a kingdom than virtually anything else.

PCs are valuable to a kingdom at this level, and change their realm regardless of what they do with their gold. Their spending is itself world-shaking. What they spend their gold on is what determines how the world is changed. Any merchant could purchase a keelboat just as any 8th level NPC could slay the dragon they're supposed to kill, but it's hardly fun for players to be bit players to a DMPC. If they choose to acquire a keelboat to improve the economic standing of their pet town, it stands to reason that they should have that kind of impact and that impact should result in things we describe to them. They're literally buying a keelboat, but what they're really buying is an upgrade to their town.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with just spending gold on magic items. After all, that is essentially what gold is designed to do in D&D - it's basically an alternate progression system where players can purchase ala carte items to improve their PC and more fully realize their vision. But I would argue that even this sort of activity should have an impact on the world. Dropping 10k gp on a magic shop should mean that more people in that area will want to set up competing magic shops and the one the PCs patronize should become more powerful and more influential. 10k gold is a lot of money in-game.

Quote from GnollitAll78450 >>

I commonly play cleric and Druid and do a lot of the healing and support, and that also mean, I go through money fast when dealing with diseases, other medical disorders like exhaustion or even extra planar foes. That is if you can find the components in shops, supporting a party gets expensive, and that isn't counting potions i purchase for my group. 
The consumed component really start to add up. 

Protection from Evil and Good: 25 GP per use.

Revivify: 300GP per use.

Greater Restoration: 100GP per use

Raise Dead: 500 GP per use.

Heroes' Feast: 1,000 GP per use.

Resurrection: 1,000 GP per use.

True Resurrection: 25,000 GP per use.

And that isn't even an exhaustive list.  In my case, Money=power in a more literal sense. I can't cast a lot of my most needed spells when i need them, if i don't get cash to spend on components. 
So no, it isn't like Candy to players, it is the ability to do perform my role. I have more than once spent ALL my money on components when going through dangerous areas and was STILL short and had to barrow diamonds from my party to raise them.
I would love to be able to cut down on the accounting, but component costs don't let me.

I do understand that as a player you don't really have the standing to change the world directly as a DM can and should, and that's reflected in what you wrote here. That's quite understandable.

However, if I were the DM, the fact that you're dropping this much money on what I can only assume is a shop for spellcasters that caters to your needs, I would start making that shop larger and more powerful in your world. At the point that you're spending thousands and thousands of gold at a shop, you aren't just some two bit customer. Maybe it's a bunch of shops. They all get better. That's how money works. Wherever you spend you money, that business prospers. The game should reflect this, IMO. The mechanics don't but DMs can do this freely, of course. 

This feels very much like an answer in search of a problem.

PCs throwing their stacks of gold around to help their favorite townsfolk (or their favorite towns) is already a thing. What you're suggesting is very much like suggesting adventuring parties adopt unsupervised kids to be their mascots/sidekicks as if that isn't already the natural behavior of a wild adventuring party.

Moreover, you're suggesting DMs should be guiding the PCs' spending activities by actively building in opportunities for them. Which means more worldbuilding and prep time for DMs to not only design those economic opportunities but also whole economic systems to account for second order effects and the long-term ROI for the party you suggest as rewards for these investments.

Even worse, all that extra work threatens to turn the game into spreadsheet simulator. "Okay gang, I know we're all excited for the big fight, but first we have to check in on Hagar the fisherman's quarterly business review and his investment portfolio to see if he's contributed enough to the town's economy so Roland the apothecary can buy ingredients to make your healing potions." No! If the players want to buy a boat let them buy a boat, but we don't have to insist on it for the economic wellbeing of the realm.

Well, you might like my character: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/looking-for-players-groups/232911-2024-alchemist-heydan-seegil

I've played them for a while but when I played them for 5e the DM gave us like a year of downtime immediately after finishing the levels 1-5 LMoP adventurer. I hired a bunch of peasants at 1sp per day then trained them so I got a reduced skilled laborer at 1gp a day rather than 2gp standard. I used these people to essentially start a massive MLM pharmaceutical company make potions all of which sold for the book prices and kept back 10% for myself after costs of their shops, components, and salaries were paid. Each month I'd hire new unskilled hirelings then train them or have my hirelings trained to hire other hirelings to train them. Then they would get their own shops that I owned and so on. Within a year we made billions (or what felt like billions) of platinum starting with I think 10,000 gold and the other party members helped create Big Pharma (which has since been retconned to Big Phial to be more Realms appropriate) and so they also had been hiring people to make and sell potions.

We literally infiltrated the Realms and in the next adventure we were able to get into and out of the Drow prison freeing people who then trained to become Alchemist for our company without the Drow being aware. I married a Drow and killed half the city to put her on the ruling council. No one figured out I poisoned everyone but when she assumed power they kind of figured it out. We prevented Blingdenstone from being invaded and I got a secret lab to test new potions on monsters in the Underdark out of the marriage. Eventually, the company became the largest supplier of generic potions and components in the Realms growing "to big to fail" due to also investing company resources into the public works of various cities. Without our money several cities will fall into bankruptcy collapsing more than one region or nation into decades of endless debts. Unfortunately, as of 5.5e I am starting off ruined. My Drow wife stole my fortune, my company which ahe turned into an international drug cartel, my Alchemsit Journal with some recipes in it but not all, the Red Dragon Wrymling I hatched that is now addicted to drugs,  along with several other experiments.

[EDIT: I nearly forgot we also set up supply chains so anywhere in the Realms could get any of our stock within one day by setting up runners one day apart from each other. We got the idea while in the Underdark. We wanted supplies whenever we would need them and then we figured it would be smart to establish supply chains to places we planned on being so that there would already be supplies in those other places. We hired replacement staff so if someone died, which did happen, we wouldn't be down anywhere. We provided basic medical, dental, and optical coverage, four weeks paid time off, and two day off per week. It was a whole game within a game and we had to spend sessions just dealing with running Big Phial.]

Money does equal power which is why as a DM I can be stingy with it because once you have a company or army it becomes a whole new game of management and paying wages. Oh, speaking of which I did once play a Eloquence Bard who never actually did combat. Instead I bought a horse and a few trained soldiers then gave them inspiration and had them fight for me. That is also a fun way to do it but it is veey expensive to hire NPCs so make sure you have an income in game like my Alchemist did.

[EDIT 2: Also, for Downtime Activities look in Xanathar's. It has a table for rolling weekly wages fro. practicing your profession as well as expanded rules for selling things item by item. There are also rules for using your Bastion to sell items for you in the 5.5e DMG. The yields are higher than what you quoted in both sources.]

That's an awful lot of words written just to end up sounding like the D&D version of one of the "Billionaire Mindset" guys on social media and frankly no one likes those guys