D&D PvP: How to balance one powerful vs two weaker players.

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Alchemist make potions and they can be built to craft them three times as fast with the right Feats. Once they have at least 41 hit points you can begin experimenting on yourself using Miscibility which makes the effects of a potion permanent on a 100

Bear in mind that a character under the influence of a permanent potion will have to roll potion miscibility every time they drink a potion (potion miscibility applies if you drink a potion while under the effects of another potion. Nothing says that permanent potions are an exception). Since this will delete both potions on a roll of 1-25, good luck getting more than one effect.

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

… How exactly is an Alchemist Artificer so fundamentally broken?

Shoot I meant to reply to this. While it may not be as helpful in a PvP immediately upon making the character it will if the character has significant down time.

Alchemist make potions and they can be built to craft them three times as fast with the right Feats. Once they have at least 41 hit points you can begin experimenting on yourself using Miscibility which makes the effects of a potion permanent on a 100, couple that with the Human feature that provides the Heroic Inspiration and you can make two rolls on the Miscibility table turning that chance into a 1 in 50 from a 1 in 100. Start drinking two Elixirs of Resilience at the same time every chance you get and each time you gain the permanent benefit it not only stacks but has to be individually dispelled.

I got my Alchemist to AC 30 from AC 10 in under a year of downtime but you can do other stuff too like give yourself permanent dragon breath or whatever. The only draw back is the amount of prep time makes it impractical in most campaigns but if I get the down time and I have more than 40hp to survive the damage if I get a 1 on the Miscibility roll then I start experimenting with chemistry.

As Pantagruel666 already said, anything can be broken if you ignore the rules.  You are ignoring several rules here:

1. The Miscibility table only applies to potions.  Elixirs are similar to potions, but they are based on a class feature and not actually potions--they do not use the word "potion" anywhere in their rules.  This is intentional, given potions have specific rules.  Accordingly, the miscibility table is not applicable. 

2. Even if it were a potion, you cannot stack magical abilities of the same name, and thus cannot be under the effect of two Elixirs of Resistance at the same time.  This is a fundamental, core part of the D&D rules.

3. Even if it were a potion and could be stacked, any time you drink a new potion, you would have to roll again and could lose both effects.  (Edit: Looks like  Pantagruel666 said this above as well).

So, no, this does not work, and if it did work, it still would not work, and if it did work both ways, it would not practically work for a third reason. 

____

Going back to the actual thread, since the above is a distraction without basis in rules, I have DMed a lot of PvP in D&D - almost always because it is worked into the story (ex. players under the effect of mental magic). I agree with others have said about PvP being unbalanced.  Others have already extensively touched on why this is - nova potential, battlefield changing skills, player skill (both at combat and just designing their character), and, of course, pure, dumb luck.  

Here is the one thing I do not think has been said on this thread yet... PvP can be a lot of fun, but it should be used only when absolutely necessary to increase the entertainment of the party.  Lots of players secretly wonder "would I win?" and it can be very fun to let people live out that fantasy in a controlled environment. 

But I have to put the stress on controlled environment.  This is a situation where (a) every player involved in the PvP (above table) is comfortable with the arrangement and (b) there are not going to be long-term feel bad consequences to something that is inherently unbalanced and thus not overly fair.  For example, a one-shot heist, where everyone knows it might go full Reservoir Dogs at the end, would meet both requirements - everyone knows what they are getting into when they sign onto the game and it is a one-shot, so there are no long-term consequences.  A friendly duel where the players are under the effect of a death ward?  Also makes sense.   As with most things in D&D, knowing what your group enjoys and can tolerate is a good idea - and if there is any uncertainty, it might be wise to put the game on a brief pause for an above-the-table discussion before PvP starts. 

But someone trying to kill another player permanently because of in-character disputes?  Bad, bad idea, except in a very rare type of group. 

I would love to see OP respond and explain why they are doing this, as others have asked, so more specific feedback on their situation can be provided.  

(Note, this is not PvDM with PvP elements, such as when a player is dominated by a monster.  That is not really PvP - that is PvDM where an enemy is wielding the player, and is evaluated differently).  

I mean it is in the DMG but I wouldn't say it is abusive. At least not anymore so than using anything else in the DMG as a player such as creating an environmental effect or building and using siege equipment which is definitely something I could see an Artillerist doing. Them the rules of the game after all.

However, I can understand your fear and so I might suggest either not giving your players enough downtime to make such a feat possible (our DM did but we also faced all the demons from Out of the Abyss at the same time inadvertently saving Menzoberranzan) or you could make the process have a more severe draw back. I would do this as a DM by making one of the Complications during crafting creates a flaw in the brew turning it into a narcotic like Tanasbra in the case of a Healing Potion. Then the alchemical abuse has both a mechanical and thematic impact to the game.

Actually, I made a minor mistake. It's not difficult to be under the effects of two permanent potions, it's completely impossible, because a 00 result causes one effect to be permanent and the other effect to be removed, and thus any time you gain a permanent effect the prior effect will be removed.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Actually, I made a minor mistake. It's not difficult to be under the effects of two permanent potions, it's completely impossible, because a 00 result causes one effect to be permanent and the other effect to be removed, and thus any time you gain a permanent effect the prior effect will be removed.

That isn't what Miscibility reads. You drink two potions and keep one of their effects permanently. You don't lose the effects of any other. No where does it read you lose any effect of any potion. The only way to remove any effect gained this way is through Dispell Magic and it even reads that is discretionary not a hard ruling. So, Dispel Magic may not even work and even then it reads 'this' effect indicating only one effect at a time may be removed in this fashion.

They want us to experiment on ourselves and the party. It is the strongest ability an Alchemist brings to the table. Permanent, possibly unremovable, spell like effects; but it does take a lot of preparation work and a high enough level to have the HP to survive a 1 on that roll.

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Actually, I made a minor mistake. It's not difficult to be under the effects of two permanent potions, it's completely impossible, because a 00 result causes one effect to be permanent and the other effect to be removed, and thus any time you gain a permanent effect the prior effect will be removed.

That isn't what Miscibility reads. You drink two potions and keep one of their effects permanently. You don't lose the effects of any other. No where does it read you lose any effect of any potion. The only way to remove any effect gained this way is through Dispell Magic and it even reads that is discretionary not a hard ruling. So, Dispel Magic may not even work and even then it reads 'this' effect indicating only one effect at a time may be removed in this fashion.

They want us to experiment on ourselves and the party. It is the strongest ability an Alchemist brings to the table. Permanent, possibly unremovable, spell like effects; but it does take a lot of preparation work and a high enough level to have the HP to survive a 1 on that roll.

 

 The miscibility table only says a potion becomes permanent if you roll a 00, every other result has either potions stopping working or potions working normally which would include them wearing off. So your definition of broken is "this only happens 1% of the time that I drink two potions, assuming I ever do drink two potions on a single turn that have lingering effects rather than ones that work instantly." I think you need a new definition. 

Also as Caerwyn points out most of what an Alchemist produces are very explicitly Elixirs and not potions so the miscibility table doesn't even apply. So again we're in a position of "broken" only working if the DM (and the players) doesn't actually know or read the rules properly. 

Also note that the DM has discretion to allow Dispel Magic to remove the effects.

Quote from ApplePaladin >>

I'm wondering what series of mistakes led to this situation in the first place. Fundamentally you can't balance PvP in this situation. As the others have mentioned, D&D isn't designed for PvP. It doesn't have the kind of rock-paper-scissors advantage negation design baked in and that's a feature, not a bug. D&D is designed as a collaborative storytelling adventure game. If your players are engaged in combat against each other something has gone terribly wrong.

The only way to balance PvP in D&D is to go the IROC route by removing all the variables and assigning all competitors the same loadout. In D&D that would mean everyone plays Xerox copies of the same player character: same species, class, subclass, equipment, feats, spell list, stats, etc. And it would mean even numbers in 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc., or an all-out free-for all with no teaming up allowed. A 1v2 scenario wouldn't even work under these restrictions.

So I guess the advice is either accept that there is no way to balance what you're looking to do or... just don't do it?

No mistakes led to this. Over the table and outside the campaign, some players are interested in doing a "boss-battle styles PvP" where multiple weaker players fight a stronger one. They don't necessarily care if it's exactly and scientifically balanced since they are just doing this for fun and will rotate who gets to be the boss.

I'm mainly wondering if there is a group of levels, X and X vs Y, that is the most balanced or even the least unbalanced.

Quote from GnollitAll78450 >>

What is the situation here?

Is this a narrative match like the "Recruit the villain" or " we got the wrong guy" tropes?

Is this PvP because the players couldn't work together?

Is this a case of a villain is given a player to make it more interesting? 

All these situations have different solutions.

This isn't a campaign. Some people like the idea of doing a "boss-battle style PvP" where one stronger player fights a weaker one. So a PvP arena.

They are okay with battles ending fast due to powerful spells and such, and they are fine if battles are not perfectly balanced. They mostly don't want one side to have too big of an advantage.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

D&D PvP is extremely random, particularly for small numbers at low levels. There is a significant chance of a level 5 vs two level 3s ending in one round, with either side potentially victorious. On average I think the level 5 would have the edge, but it's fairly close and depends a lot on die rolls and the specific classes involved.

Any way to make combat last a bit longer? Or is this definitely going to be like a Hollywood cowboy duel (where they stare each other down and then both try to shoot at the same time)?

Quote from Shalvael >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

D&D PvP is extremely random, particularly for small numbers at low levels. There is a significant chance of a level 5 vs two level 3s ending in one round, with either side potentially victorious. On average I think the level 5 would have the edge, but it's fairly close and depends a lot on die rolls and the specific classes involved.

 

Any way to make combat last a bit longer? Or is this definitely going to be like a Hollywood cowboy duel (where they stare each other down and then both try to shoot at the same time)?

 

 Don't. Do. P. V. P.

That's honestly the best advice for you

Quote from heydanseegil >>

That isn't what Miscibility reads. You drink two potions and keep one of their effects permanently. You don't lose the effects of any other. You don't lose the effects of any other. No where does it read you lose any effect of any potion. The only way to remove any effect gained this way is through Dispell Magic and it even reads that is discretionary not a hard ruling.

That is incorrect. The effects of a permanent potion are a potion. This means

1. Anything that removes the effects of a potion removes a permanent potion effect.
2. Drinking a potion while under the effects of a permanent potion triggers a miscibility check.

Now, if we check the miscibility table

• Results 01, 02-08, and 09-15 all specify "Both potions lose their effects". Thus, those effects will remove a permanent potion.
• Results 16-25 specifies "One potion loses its effect." This may or may not remove a permanent potion, depending on the DM.
• Result 00 specifies "Only one potion works, but its effects are permanent." This means either the permanent potion or the new potion ceases to work (since "only one potion works"), the other is permanent.

Quote from Shalvael >>

Any way to make combat last a bit longer? Or is this definitely going to be like a Hollywood cowboy duel (where they stare each other down and then both try to shoot at the same time)?

Different levels will help a bit (glass cannon-ness has two peaks, at level 1 and level 5), tier 3 combats are reasonably likely to last more than one round, but mostly no.

Quote from Davyd >>

Quote from Shalvael >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

D&D PvP is extremely random, particularly for small numbers at low levels. There is a significant chance of a level 5 vs two level 3s ending in one round, with either side potentially victorious. On average I think the level 5 would have the edge, but it's fairly close and depends a lot on die rolls and the specific classes involved.

 

Any way to make combat last a bit longer? Or is this definitely going to be like a Hollywood cowboy duel (where they stare each other down and then both try to shoot at the same time)?

 

 Don't. Do. P. V. P.

That's honestly the best advice for you

 
Given OP’s explanation of the situation - a couple of friends wanting to play around with PvP, this is not great advice.  This is the exact kind of situation where PvP can be fun - it is just another way to goof around with the game system, and no one is going to be upset since they all want to do it and are explicitly coming to the table for the purpose of PvP.

Regarding the specific question about slowing down combat, there are not super great ways of doing that.  You could do things like add resistances or mitigating magic items (items providing the Shield spell, for example), but those can ruin the goal you are setting of letting people test out the characters.  After all, then the event becomes more about the ad-ons than the build. 

People can do things like play Monks, Trickster clerics, any number of other defense or control heavy ways of slowing thx game down, but those still face similar problems.

So, the best piece of advice I think you can actually get - if you want to play D&D PvP, just embrace the chaos.  Have players roll up a number of different characters (where you can quickly adjust level if you need to - Beyond is pretty good at down-leveling characters), and they just have fun with the frenetic situation that is PvP while you all try to figure out the balance that works for your group.  At the end of the day, as long as everyone realizes that fights are chaotic and the system is not really designed for PvP, the only thing that matters is that you all have fun with that chaos.

I light of the clarification from the OP, one thing you want to look for is nova mitigation. Casters tend to be one-shot-wonders with their highest spell slot doing the majority of the work, and then reliant on sub-par things for the rest of the battle (until high level, when a level 9 slot is world-ending potential, but levels 6-8 are no slouches either). This is in contrast to martials, for the most part, where they tend to be more consistent. 

One way to deal with this is simply adding HP to everyone. This will prolong the fight and make everyone use more resources to get the job done. It's not great, but this is honestly a very hard problem to solve because the handicaps you employ will depend a lot on the classes involved.

Quote from CunningSmile >>

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Actually, I made a minor mistake. It's not difficult to be under the effects of two permanent potions, it's completely impossible, because a 00 result causes one effect to be permanent and the other effect to be removed, and thus any time you gain a permanent effect the prior effect will be removed.

That isn't what Miscibility reads. You drink two potions and keep one of their effects permanently. You don't lose the effects of any other. No where does it read you lose any effect of any potion. The only way to remove any effect gained this way is through Dispell Magic and it even reads that is discretionary not a hard ruling. So, Dispel Magic may not even work and even then it reads 'this' effect indicating only one effect at a time may be removed in this fashion.

They want us to experiment on ourselves and the party. It is the strongest ability an Alchemist brings to the table. Permanent, possibly unremovable, spell like effects; but it does take a lot of preparation work and a high enough level to have the HP to survive a 1 on that roll.

 

 The miscibility table only says a potion becomes permanent if you roll a 00, every other result has either potions stopping working or potions working normally which would include them wearing off. So your definition of broken is "this only happens 1% of the time that I drink two potions, assuming I ever do drink two potions on a single turn that have lingering effects rather than ones that work instantly." I think you need a new definition. 

Also as Caerwyn points out most of what an Alchemist produces are very explicitly Elixirs and not potions so the miscibility table doesn't even apply. So again we're in a position of "broken" only working if the DM (and the players) doesn't actually know or read the rules properly. 

This is not correct. No where does it say any effect is lost. It reads, "Only one potion works, but its effects are permanent.", and it refers to strictly the two potions being mixed per the heading paragraph, When a character mixes two potions together, roll on the Potion Miscibility table.", and the effects if the I potion are no longer a potion effect but a permanent one, "Once used, a potion takes effect immediately, and it is used up.", ending further Miscibility rolls. You may quaff other potions under the permanent effect per the heading paragraph explaining how Miscibility works because you are no longer mixing the potion. It was used up by the Miscibility which transformed it into a permenant boon. You only roll when mixing the potions.

Ya'll make up some of the craziest restrictions for no reason. Like Wizards not needing to spend time adding spells even though it clearly reads they do and put it in it's own cut out saying they do. It is a very abusive way to bend the rules and it completely discourages people from play.

Besides I've spoken to the people who actually created thus game about this and they said it was kosher. So, going with them since they wrote the rule.

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from CunningSmile >>

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Actually, I made a minor mistake. It's not difficult to be under the effects of two permanent potions, it's completely impossible, because a 00 result causes one effect to be permanent and the other effect to be removed, and thus any time you gain a permanent effect the prior effect will be removed.

That isn't what Miscibility reads. You drink two potions and keep one of their effects permanently. You don't lose the effects of any other. No where does it read you lose any effect of any potion. The only way to remove any effect gained this way is through Dispell Magic and it even reads that is discretionary not a hard ruling. So, Dispel Magic may not even work and even then it reads 'this' effect indicating only one effect at a time may be removed in this fashion.

They want us to experiment on ourselves and the party. It is the strongest ability an Alchemist brings to the table. Permanent, possibly unremovable, spell like effects; but it does take a lot of preparation work and a high enough level to have the HP to survive a 1 on that roll.

 

 The miscibility table only says a potion becomes permanent if you roll a 00, every other result has either potions stopping working or potions working normally which would include them wearing off. So your definition of broken is "this only happens 1% of the time that I drink two potions, assuming I ever do drink two potions on a single turn that have lingering effects rather than ones that work instantly." I think you need a new definition. 

Also as Caerwyn points out most of what an Alchemist produces are very explicitly Elixirs and not potions so the miscibility table doesn't even apply. So again we're in a position of "broken" only working if the DM (and the players) doesn't actually know or read the rules properly. 

This is not correct. No where does it say any effect is lost. It reads, "Only one potion works, but its effects are permanent.", and it refers to strictly the two potions being mixed per the heading paragraph, When a character mixes two potions together, roll on the Potion Miscibility table.", and the effects if the I potion are no longer a potion effect but a permanent one, "Once used, a potion takes effect immediately, and it is used up.", ending further Miscibility rolls. You may quaff other potions under the permanent effect per the heading paragraph explaining how Miscibility works because you are no longer mixing the potion. It was used up by the Miscibility which transformed it into a permenant boon. You only roll when mixing the potions.

Ya'll make up some of the craziest restrictions for no reason. Like Wizards not needing to spend time adding spells even though it clearly reads they do and put it in it's own cut out saying they do. It is a very abusive way to bend the rules and it completely discourages people from play.

Besides I've spoken to the people who actually created thus game about this and they said it was kosher. So, going with them since they wrote the rule.

 You’re wrong, I’m not making up restrictions you are simply wrong. The word permanent only appears once on the miscibility table and that’s as a result of rolling a 00 and even then dispell magic can get rid of the effect. None of the other categories on that table mention a potion becoming permanent and the first four categories on the table (rolls of 1 to 25 so 25% chance) have one or both potions failing with no effect. It’s a d100 rolling table, you don’t just get to choose the option you like best and you have to actually read the full table 

Quote from Shalvael >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

D&D PvP is extremely random, particularly for small numbers at low levels. There is a significant chance of a level 5 vs two level 3s ending in one round, with either side potentially victorious. On average I think the level 5 would have the edge, but it's fairly close and depends a lot on die rolls and the specific classes involved.

 

Any way to make combat last a bit longer? Or is this definitely going to be like a Hollywood cowboy duel (where they stare each other down and then both try to shoot at the same time)?

 

 It’s not quite a PvP, but you could have the 1 player use a monster. Specifically a monster with legendary actions/resistances. As they are meant to deal with a party and provide an interesting fight. Or let them build a character and give them a couple legendary resistances.

Alternatively, maybe even agree beforehand that no one will use control effects. Because it’s stuff like hold person or stunning strike that will really end the fight in a boring, unsatisfying way.
That may help, but there’s nothing to really get around the turn-based nature of D&D. PvP fights will almost always come down to who wins initiative. And the damage to hit point ratio is also tough to overcome  PCs can dish it out, but they can’t take it very well.

Side note: can you all take this potion conversation to its own thread? You’re really off topic. 

Quote from CunningSmile >>

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from CunningSmile >>

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Actually, I made a minor mistake. It's not difficult to be under the effects of two permanent potions, it's completely impossible, because a 00 result causes one effect to be permanent and the other effect to be removed, and thus any time you gain a permanent effect the prior effect will be removed.

That isn't what Miscibility reads. You drink two potions and keep one of their effects permanently. You don't lose the effects of any other. No where does it read you lose any effect of any potion. The only way to remove any effect gained this way is through Dispell Magic and it even reads that is discretionary not a hard ruling. So, Dispel Magic may not even work and even then it reads 'this' effect indicating only one effect at a time may be removed in this fashion.

They want us to experiment on ourselves and the party. It is the strongest ability an Alchemist brings to the table. Permanent, possibly unremovable, spell like effects; but it does take a lot of preparation work and a high enough level to have the HP to survive a 1 on that roll.

 

 The miscibility table only says a potion becomes permanent if you roll a 00, every other result has either potions stopping working or potions working normally which would include them wearing off. So your definition of broken is "this only happens 1% of the time that I drink two potions, assuming I ever do drink two potions on a single turn that have lingering effects rather than ones that work instantly." I think you need a new definition. 

Also as Caerwyn points out most of what an Alchemist produces are very explicitly Elixirs and not potions so the miscibility table doesn't even apply. So again we're in a position of "broken" only working if the DM (and the players) doesn't actually know or read the rules properly. 

This is not correct. No where does it say any effect is lost. It reads, "Only one potion works, but its effects are permanent.", and it refers to strictly the two potions being mixed per the heading paragraph, When a character mixes two potions together, roll on the Potion Miscibility table.", and the effects if the I potion are no longer a potion effect but a permanent one, "Once used, a potion takes effect immediately, and it is used up.", ending further Miscibility rolls. You may quaff other potions under the permanent effect per the heading paragraph explaining how Miscibility works because you are no longer mixing the potion. It was used up by the Miscibility which transformed it into a permenant boon. You only roll when mixing the potions.

Ya'll make up some of the craziest restrictions for no reason. Like Wizards not needing to spend time adding spells even though it clearly reads they do and put it in it's own cut out saying they do. It is a very abusive way to bend the rules and it completely discourages people from play.

Besides I've spoken to the people who actually created thus game about this and they said it was kosher. So, going with them since they wrote the rule.

 You’re wrong, I’m not making up restrictions you are simply wrong. The word permanent only appears once on the miscibility table and that’s as a result of rolling a 00 and even then dispell magic can get rid of the effect. None of the other categories on that table mention a potion becoming permanent and the first four categories on the table (rolls of 1 to 25 so 25% chance) have one or both potions failing with no effect. It’s a d100 rolling table, you don’t just get to choose the option you like best and you have to actually read the full table 

This is exactly what I was saying. Only one of the potions becomes permanent, but after that it is a permanent effect. You are no longer mixing potions and you have that effect indefinitely because it was metabolized. You can mix potions again at a later point and if you do the Miscibility roll is to determine the effect of having mixed those potions because they haven't been metabolized. They are still sloshing around in your stomach or in the same vial or in a cauldron together.

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

Quote from Davyd >>

Quote from Shalvael >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

D&D PvP is extremely random, particularly for small numbers at low levels. There is a significant chance of a level 5 vs two level 3s ending in one round, with either side potentially victorious. On average I think the level 5 would have the edge, but it's fairly close and depends a lot on die rolls and the specific classes involved.

 

Any way to make combat last a bit longer? Or is this definitely going to be like a Hollywood cowboy duel (where they stare each other down and then both try to shoot at the same time)?

 

 Don't. Do. P. V. P.

That's honestly the best advice for you

 
Given OP’s explanation of the situation - a couple of friends wanting to play around with PvP, this is not great advice.  This is the exact kind of situation where PvP can be fun - it is just another way to goof around with the game system, and no one is going to be upset since they all want to do it and are explicitly coming to the table for the purpose of PvP.

Regarding the specific question about slowing down combat, there are not super great ways of doing that.  You could do things like add resistances or mitigating magic items (items providing the Shield spell, for example), but those can ruin the goal you are setting of letting people test out the characters.  After all, then the event becomes more about the ad-ons than the build. 

People can do things like play Monks, Trickster clerics, any number of other defense or control heavy ways of slowing thx game down, but those still face similar problems.

So, the best piece of advice I think you can actually get - if you want to play D&D PvP, just embrace the chaos.  Have players roll up a number of different characters (where you can quickly adjust level if you need to - Beyond is pretty good at down-leveling characters), and they just have fun with the frenetic situation that is PvP while you all try to figure out the balance that works for your group.  At the end of the day, as long as everyone realizes that fights are chaotic and the system is not really designed for PvP, the only thing that matters is that you all have fun with that chaos.

I'm aware of their situation as described and I stand by my advice. Find a different system or find an actual skirmish game.