New to DMing and had a very unique question. One of the party members wanted to make a class with a very unique background. Basically they'd like to play a bard. He would be part of a group of 7 from 1000 years ago and for some reason be cursed to live while his party members died. When we begin the session he was wondering if he could be a bard that inspires his party by recounting stories of his original party .. and be able to manifest them in combat.
For example, he would walk into battle as the bard, recount a story of an orc from his party in the past and basically become the orc and fight in combat as the orc with equipment that Orc would have. It could be simple equipment like basic armor and a basic club, but nothing too crazy.
I mean, how far into home brewing are you wanting your campaign? Anything is possible as long as you allow it.
The typical Bard has no skills that do what you’re describing. In fact, outside of polymorph abilities, I don’t think any class can do what you’re describing. Aside from the possibility of this character, the usefulness seems rather lacking. Someone transforming into a different class each battle is not necessary if the group has a solid team build, and having nothing more than the simple armor and weapons of said class would be a huge disadvantage once you reach higher levels and other party members have magic items.
Edit: also, I don’t think there’s a curse that makes someone live longer. Usually curses kill you in some way shape or form.
From what I'm reading, he doesn't get any mechanical benefits from it, so why not ? If he wants to say that when he goes into melee, he suddenly looks like an orc, that's cool. From a "balance" perspective, I would just make sure with him that it's clear to anyone watching that it's him channeling the orc, and that although he looks different, he's still identifiable (maybe the orc's shape superpose over his own, but is see-through, like a disbelieved illusion).
Honestly, as long as you're clear on the "no actual mechanical benefits", i don't see any reason to say no. It's a cool backstory, and it gives you a crazy amount of hooks to tailor the campaign to this character.
But mostly, and I can't emphasize this point enough, this player will have an amazing amount of fun doing that, and I'm sure that the other players will as well.
Yeah, this sounds like he's in total homebrew mode.
I mean, it sounds cool. Like shapeshifting to a totally new character for each fight.
But balancing that is a whole big thing - being able to change your entire character concept to whatever's needed for the current fight is going to be really powerful. (Fighting in narrow corridors? Transform into a melee fighter! Fighting on an open field? Long-range archer! Fighting undead? Cleric! )
In addition, each class has their own "economy" of how they deplete resources over the course of a day, and how they recover them. Hit points for melee classes, spell slots for spellcasters, various one-off abilities for each class, etc. Being able to switch from one depleted resource pool to a different non-depleted one would be extremely powerful. (E.g. he transforms into a warlock, uses up a bunch of spell slots.. Next battle transforms into an orc - no need for spell slots at all! Or, Next battle transforms into a wizard with a different spell selection than the warlock from two fights ago! Or, one fight he plays a character with high HP. Next fight, when his HP is low, he switches to a ranged class!)
Overall, I think the player is describing an entire homebrew class, not an ability you can easily tack on to an existing one. It's a cool idea and it's probably *possible* to make a class based on that theme, but it's gonna take some effort. I don't think it would end up remotely balanced if you just winged it as you went along.
I don't think the player is expecting anything, except maybe the basic equipment needed to make the thing work. In the example given, he would gain a club and the relevant armor, but would lose them at the end of the fight.
It does raise the question of what happens when he channels a wizard, or a fighter with heavy armor for instance. Although he can wield heavy armor, he should still get disadvantage on attacks and inability to cast spells.
I would say the concept has potential and promise. But, first a few questions:
Is this a character already in a campaign? If so, what level Bard? Or, is this a session 0 type concept character to see if it's viable?
If this was my table as DM, I'd take this approach:
Basically the player is (for all intents and purposes) requesting a very unique type of Polymorph. This is a 4th level spell slot that a Bard can gain at 7th level. Designed as such for game balance per the official source. If the player and DM are willing to effectively bypass this limitation from level 1, I'd greatly recommend reasonable limitations. And let the player do most of the work, gaining an understanding that you as DM have the final say in yes/no for each Manifestation.
For example, if there are 6 possible manifestations the character can make from former party members (i.e. Half Orc barbarian), then the player must be willing to create 6 different character sheets for the separate manifestations, all Level 1, with basic armor/weapon/class features. These manifestations do not level-up as the Bard does. And, treat it as a sub class "once a day" feature, or if attempted twice in the same day suffer 1 level of exhaustion. If a manifestation is dropped to 0 hp, make death saving throws as normal, but now that manifestation is lost forever.
Just spit balling a few limitations I would personally ask a player to consider because that player is otherwise asking for a class feature that a) doesn't officially exist, b) could be wildly overpowered unintentionally and without limitations, c) keeps the game planning more manageable from the DM side of things due to the lower unpredictability, d) keeps the player more focused on growing as a Bard first, making this new feature a "nice to have" in very specific situations only. One of the previous party members was a dwarf wizard? Great, the Bard can manifest as such, and sweet talk himself in Dwarvish to gain access to the heavily guarded mine. Doesn't always have to be combat, after all.
I'm a big fan of letting everyone have fun and finding workable solutions. But my first instinct is always "how could this backfire and what limits ought to be in place"
Thank you all so much for the insight, super helpful and actually helped sparked some ideas for me. For starters, he is not part of a separate campaign, this is a session 0. The player was very excited about this concept and me being new to DMing i wasn't sure this was possible so I figured i'd tell him i'd look in to it to see if it's possible.
I was thinking of limiting each class to level 1 so the player would want to focus more on the bard. The overall idea is that when manifesting these new forms he is powerful but he's inspiring others to fight alongside the manifested hero (bardic inspiration) so him and someone from the party would work together and he's helping them grow as a character. He's okay with it not being overpowered, which I think is a good sign he wants it more to be about flavor and experience, then just being able to kill whatever he wants however he wants to.
I had also thought maybe the hero he manifests would be limited by his own bard level. So if he was a 3rd level bard, he could do what the other heroes could do at 3rd level, and naturally we would create the 6 other sheets required to make sure he's tracking everything. Plus if it was limited by his bard level, if he wanted to multiclass, he could, but that would only affect himself not the manifested Heroes. So if he was a 3rd level bard and 1st level warlock, he technically is overall a 4th level bard, but his bard level is only 3. So I feel like it would make sense to say he is manifesting them through his bard level, which at the moment, is 3.
I think an alternative, would be to say he could manifest the heroes for an hour and they would all be level 1, but at 7th level, like you suggested, he could get access to that polymorph ability and for the sake of the campaign, it could be a incredibly heroic moment where he "unlocks his potential" and could actually be come that hero and take on their traits, but again, only at 7th level. And this wouldn't be something I would tell him, so it would feel more heroic, feel like a nice surprise.
As a quick follow up, i'm actually creating a new campaign from scratch set in a future (think star wars + star trek + firefly) so anything COULD happen in the universe. For me, I want the campaign to be more about the players and immerse them. Allow them to be the characters they want to be and live out those characters to the fullest. That's why this idea resonated with me and I'd love to make it work if possible.
The thing that comes to mind most isn't about the bard and all his special abilites but, what kind of special treatment will the rest of the group's characters get?
As an example. I recently joined a game where 3 of the 6 characters got on average of 12 points in stats beyond point buy as well as high powered magic items. It was like grade schoolers playing football with pro athletes. Or in D&D terms, adventurers rolling with Demigods.
All of the players will be allowed to come up with their own characters and if they feel weaker I will try to scale things to make them feel powerful. Even with this unique idea, I want to try and limit how powerful he will actually be, seeing he is a bard and even the player doesn't want to be overpowered, he wants to just inspire others mostly. So I could always handicap as I need to.
I don't know, I'm still concerned about resource use. Bard's resource of note is spell slots. Barbarian's is hit points, which he protects with rage and resistances. IMO, it's VERY powerful to be able to spend all your spell slots as a Bard, and then for the next battle switch to a form that doesn't need spell slots to be effective. Or vice versa - fight on the front lines as a barbarian, then next battle when he's at low HP switch back to being a ranged spellcaster.
It seems not too bad if you only think of one battle at a time - sure, a barbarian isn't any more powerful than a bard, or vice versa - but IMO the concept is incredibly powerful if you're talking about a multi-encounter day.
Speaking with him more he was hoping to have the 7 heroes be:
A human Paladin with a greatsword
An Orc barbarian with a greatclub
Human Fighter with a sword and shield
Elf Ranger with a bow
Triton fighter with a halberd
Aarakocra cleric with a mace
Him as the 7th the bard.
I was thinking about potential ways to keep it from being overpowered, he could transform once a day for an hour and at higher levels could give him more transformations. The total amount of spells he can cast a day are also how many he can cast for other classes, so if he has 6 uses 5, when transforming he could only potentially use 1 more then be out. But all the other classes are straight forward fighters, which i think is also a balance in itself because he's still just trying to hit stuff with his weapons.
Also the different manifestations could be 1 less than his bard level. Lvl 1 > 1. Lvl 2 >1. Lvl 3 > 2. etc.So if he does decide to multiclass he's only affecting his direct bard. His focus is being the bard and buffing allies and supporting, but then when things seem dire, he will manifest one of the fighters to change his form and continue to inspire those around him, but now not as a bard but as a more forwarding facing fighter than can do damage.
When manifesting the other classes it would appear as transparent forms that almost overlay him and their weakness and strengths are now his. It's also on him to decide what he wants to be in a situation, so in certain circumstances he may want to transform, but it only may be useful against a single enemy and also loses the ability to buff allies and be the bard he is.
Some of these (triton, aarakocra) gives unusual speed swim and fly, respectively), and I would worry about the balance of giving a player access to these at lv1. This is starting to sound like a strictly superior version of wild shape, which i'm way less ok with.
Again, it would be a once a day thing for an hour. There would be 2 or 3 engagements per session. Sure he could have access to those stats, but if he opts to use them before an encounter, then it's wasted. Or if he uses it in one fight, he can't use it again. Could also make sense to keep the other classes at lvl 1 and not allow him to access more until bardic lvl 7, then he could take on more traits of the other classes, by that point maybe twice a day.
For context, he just wants to play a class that inspires others to be heroic and forward. He's not trying to blow stuff up, he's okay eventually outscaling these manifestations, he just had really cool idea and I'd like to try and make it work.
If it's about inspiring others to be heroic, does it need to change his stats/abilities at all, can it be flavor?
Like, if he keeps all his stats and abilities the same, but now just "looks like" one of those manifestations for the purpose of inspiring his party members to be heroic and forward. You can make that the theme of his bardic inspiration, even!
If it's about inspiring others to be heroic, does it need to change his stats/abilities at all, can it be flavor?
Like, if he keeps all his stats and abilities the same, but now just "looks like" one of those manifestations for the purpose of inspiring his party members to be heroic and forward. You can make that the theme of his bardic inspiration, even!
I think the idea of making it their bardic inspiration is great: they could look like one of the other 6th as they give relevant, and technical advice pertaining to the situation. It would also let them lean a bit more into their role as a bard, and less of a "i'm all of the classes".
Hi there,
New to DMing and had a very unique question. One of the party members wanted to make a class with a very unique background. Basically they'd like to play a bard. He would be part of a group of 7 from 1000 years ago and for some reason be cursed to live while his party members died. When we begin the session he was wondering if he could be a bard that inspires his party by recounting stories of his original party .. and be able to manifest them in combat.
For example, he would walk into battle as the bard, recount a story of an orc from his party in the past and basically become the orc and fight in combat as the orc with equipment that Orc would have. It could be simple equipment like basic armor and a basic club, but nothing too crazy.
Is this .. even something possible?..
I mean, how far into home brewing are you wanting your campaign? Anything is possible as long as you allow it.
The typical Bard has no skills that do what you’re describing. In fact, outside of polymorph abilities, I don’t think any class can do what you’re describing. Aside from the possibility of this character, the usefulness seems rather lacking. Someone transforming into a different class each battle is not necessary if the group has a solid team build, and having nothing more than the simple armor and weapons of said class would be a huge disadvantage once you reach higher levels and other party members have magic items.
Edit: also, I don’t think there’s a curse that makes someone live longer. Usually curses kill you in some way shape or form.
From what I'm reading, he doesn't get any mechanical benefits from it, so why not ? If he wants to say that when he goes into melee, he suddenly looks like an orc, that's cool. From a "balance" perspective, I would just make sure with him that it's clear to anyone watching that it's him channeling the orc, and that although he looks different, he's still identifiable (maybe the orc's shape superpose over his own, but is see-through, like a disbelieved illusion).
Honestly, as long as you're clear on the "no actual mechanical benefits", i don't see any reason to say no. It's a cool backstory, and it gives you a crazy amount of hooks to tailor the campaign to this character.
But mostly, and I can't emphasize this point enough, this player will have an amazing amount of fun doing that, and I'm sure that the other players will as well.
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Yeah, this sounds like he's in total homebrew mode.
I mean, it sounds cool. Like shapeshifting to a totally new character for each fight.
But balancing that is a whole big thing - being able to change your entire character concept to whatever's needed for the current fight is going to be really powerful. (Fighting in narrow corridors? Transform into a melee fighter! Fighting on an open field? Long-range archer! Fighting undead? Cleric! )
In addition, each class has their own "economy" of how they deplete resources over the course of a day, and how they recover them. Hit points for melee classes, spell slots for spellcasters, various one-off abilities for each class, etc. Being able to switch from one depleted resource pool to a different non-depleted one would be extremely powerful. (E.g. he transforms into a warlock, uses up a bunch of spell slots.. Next battle transforms into an orc - no need for spell slots at all! Or, Next battle transforms into a wizard with a different spell selection than the warlock from two fights ago! Or, one fight he plays a character with high HP. Next fight, when his HP is low, he switches to a ranged class!)
Overall, I think the player is describing an entire homebrew class, not an ability you can easily tack on to an existing one. It's a cool idea and it's probably *possible* to make a class based on that theme, but it's gonna take some effort. I don't think it would end up remotely balanced if you just winged it as you went along.
I don't think the player is expecting anything, except maybe the basic equipment needed to make the thing work. In the example given, he would gain a club and the relevant armor, but would lose them at the end of the fight.
It does raise the question of what happens when he channels a wizard, or a fighter with heavy armor for instance. Although he can wield heavy armor, he should still get disadvantage on attacks and inability to cast spells.
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I think the OP is saying the effect would be to quite literally become the the embodiment of the memory, not to channel the feel of it.
I would say the concept has potential and promise. But, first a few questions:
Is this a character already in a campaign? If so, what level Bard? Or, is this a session 0 type concept character to see if it's viable?
If this was my table as DM, I'd take this approach:
Basically the player is (for all intents and purposes) requesting a very unique type of Polymorph. This is a 4th level spell slot that a Bard can gain at 7th level. Designed as such for game balance per the official source. If the player and DM are willing to effectively bypass this limitation from level 1, I'd greatly recommend reasonable limitations. And let the player do most of the work, gaining an understanding that you as DM have the final say in yes/no for each Manifestation.
For example, if there are 6 possible manifestations the character can make from former party members (i.e. Half Orc barbarian), then the player must be willing to create 6 different character sheets for the separate manifestations, all Level 1, with basic armor/weapon/class features. These manifestations do not level-up as the Bard does. And, treat it as a sub class "once a day" feature, or if attempted twice in the same day suffer 1 level of exhaustion. If a manifestation is dropped to 0 hp, make death saving throws as normal, but now that manifestation is lost forever.
Just spit balling a few limitations I would personally ask a player to consider because that player is otherwise asking for a class feature that a) doesn't officially exist, b) could be wildly overpowered unintentionally and without limitations, c) keeps the game planning more manageable from the DM side of things due to the lower unpredictability, d) keeps the player more focused on growing as a Bard first, making this new feature a "nice to have" in very specific situations only. One of the previous party members was a dwarf wizard? Great, the Bard can manifest as such, and sweet talk himself in Dwarvish to gain access to the heavily guarded mine. Doesn't always have to be combat, after all.
I'm a big fan of letting everyone have fun and finding workable solutions. But my first instinct is always "how could this backfire and what limits ought to be in place"
Cheers
Boldly go
Thank you all so much for the insight, super helpful and actually helped sparked some ideas for me. For starters, he is not part of a separate campaign, this is a session 0. The player was very excited about this concept and me being new to DMing i wasn't sure this was possible so I figured i'd tell him i'd look in to it to see if it's possible.
I was thinking of limiting each class to level 1 so the player would want to focus more on the bard. The overall idea is that when manifesting these new forms he is powerful but he's inspiring others to fight alongside the manifested hero (bardic inspiration) so him and someone from the party would work together and he's helping them grow as a character. He's okay with it not being overpowered, which I think is a good sign he wants it more to be about flavor and experience, then just being able to kill whatever he wants however he wants to.
I had also thought maybe the hero he manifests would be limited by his own bard level. So if he was a 3rd level bard, he could do what the other heroes could do at 3rd level, and naturally we would create the 6 other sheets required to make sure he's tracking everything. Plus if it was limited by his bard level, if he wanted to multiclass, he could, but that would only affect himself not the manifested Heroes. So if he was a 3rd level bard and 1st level warlock, he technically is overall a 4th level bard, but his bard level is only 3. So I feel like it would make sense to say he is manifesting them through his bard level, which at the moment, is 3.
I think an alternative, would be to say he could manifest the heroes for an hour and they would all be level 1, but at 7th level, like you suggested, he could get access to that polymorph ability and for the sake of the campaign, it could be a incredibly heroic moment where he "unlocks his potential" and could actually be come that hero and take on their traits, but again, only at 7th level. And this wouldn't be something I would tell him, so it would feel more heroic, feel like a nice surprise.
As a quick follow up, i'm actually creating a new campaign from scratch set in a future (think star wars + star trek + firefly) so anything COULD happen in the universe. For me, I want the campaign to be more about the players and immerse them. Allow them to be the characters they want to be and live out those characters to the fullest. That's why this idea resonated with me and I'd love to make it work if possible.
What do you all think?
The thing that comes to mind most isn't about the bard and all his special abilites but, what kind of special treatment will the rest of the group's characters get?
As an example. I recently joined a game where 3 of the 6 characters got on average of 12 points in stats beyond point buy as well as high powered magic items. It was like grade schoolers playing football with pro athletes. Or in D&D terms, adventurers rolling with Demigods.
All of the players will be allowed to come up with their own characters and if they feel weaker I will try to scale things to make them feel powerful. Even with this unique idea, I want to try and limit how powerful he will actually be, seeing he is a bard and even the player doesn't want to be overpowered, he wants to just inspire others mostly. So I could always handicap as I need to.
I don't know, I'm still concerned about resource use. Bard's resource of note is spell slots. Barbarian's is hit points, which he protects with rage and resistances. IMO, it's VERY powerful to be able to spend all your spell slots as a Bard, and then for the next battle switch to a form that doesn't need spell slots to be effective. Or vice versa - fight on the front lines as a barbarian, then next battle when he's at low HP switch back to being a ranged spellcaster.
It seems not too bad if you only think of one battle at a time - sure, a barbarian isn't any more powerful than a bard, or vice versa - but IMO the concept is incredibly powerful if you're talking about a multi-encounter day.
Speaking with him more he was hoping to have the 7 heroes be:
I was thinking about potential ways to keep it from being overpowered, he could transform once a day for an hour and at higher levels could give him more transformations. The total amount of spells he can cast a day are also how many he can cast for other classes, so if he has 6 uses 5, when transforming he could only potentially use 1 more then be out. But all the other classes are straight forward fighters, which i think is also a balance in itself because he's still just trying to hit stuff with his weapons.
Also the different manifestations could be 1 less than his bard level. Lvl 1 > 1. Lvl 2 >1. Lvl 3 > 2. etc.So if he does decide to multiclass he's only affecting his direct bard. His focus is being the bard and buffing allies and supporting, but then when things seem dire, he will manifest one of the fighters to change his form and continue to inspire those around him, but now not as a bard but as a more forwarding facing fighter than can do damage.
When manifesting the other classes it would appear as transparent forms that almost overlay him and their weakness and strengths are now his. It's also on him to decide what he wants to be in a situation, so in certain circumstances he may want to transform, but it only may be useful against a single enemy and also loses the ability to buff allies and be the bard he is.
Some of these (triton, aarakocra) gives unusual speed swim and fly, respectively), and I would worry about the balance of giving a player access to these at lv1. This is starting to sound like a strictly superior version of wild shape, which i'm way less ok with.
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Again, it would be a once a day thing for an hour. There would be 2 or 3 engagements per session. Sure he could have access to those stats, but if he opts to use them before an encounter, then it's wasted. Or if he uses it in one fight, he can't use it again. Could also make sense to keep the other classes at lvl 1 and not allow him to access more until bardic lvl 7, then he could take on more traits of the other classes, by that point maybe twice a day.
For context, he just wants to play a class that inspires others to be heroic and forward. He's not trying to blow stuff up, he's okay eventually outscaling these manifestations, he just had really cool idea and I'd like to try and make it work.
If it's about inspiring others to be heroic, does it need to change his stats/abilities at all, can it be flavor?
Like, if he keeps all his stats and abilities the same, but now just "looks like" one of those manifestations for the purpose of inspiring his party members to be heroic and forward. You can make that the theme of his bardic inspiration, even!
I think the idea of making it their bardic inspiration is great: they could look like one of the other 6th as they give relevant, and technical advice pertaining to the situation. It would also let them lean a bit more into their role as a bard, and less of a "i'm all of the classes".
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!