Regarding only Full Spellcaster Classes: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock. Considering mid level range (lvl 5 to 10). How would you rate these Classes in terms of: 1. DPR 2. CC+Debuffs 3. Heals+Buffs 4. Utility+Skills 5. Social Tools
I'll make different lists, one for overall considering these things, and one for how they rate one those things.
Bard I'd give 1st place. They have great everything, and exceptional social tools above all. DPR - 9/10 CC+Debuffs - 7/10 Heals+Buffs - 8/10 Utility+Skills - 9/10 Social Tools - 10/10
Cleric is second I say. Normally I would say 1st, but with just whats in mind, second. They have so many subclasses, and spells. DPR - 8/10 CC+Debuffs - 6/10 Heals+Buffs - 10/10 Utility+Skills - 8/10 Social Tools - Eh, can place just about anywhere. Maybe the higher end.
Wizard is third, but carried by their immense utility. They also have great DPR, but it gets low fast after you burn through your best slots. DPR - 9/10 CC+Debuffs - 8/10 Heal+Buffs - 3/10 Utility+Skills - 10/10 Social Tools - Also weird area. They have telepathy and such, and speaking across languages. 6/10?
Druid I give fourth, because they are a little unique. Not much in DPR, but buffs, debuffs, and utility are exceptional. Wild shape I don't think applies here. DPR - 5/10 CC+Debuffs - 7/10 Heal+Buffs - 9/10 Utility+Skills - 9/10 Social Tools - Maybe 8/10
Sorcerer is fun and powerful when used right, but damage is a key feature. Though it comes to the same problems as wizard DPR. DPR - 10/10 CC+Debuffs - 8/10, less debuffs but good crowd control, especially with meta magic. Heal+Buffs - 1/10 Utility+Skills - 5/10, while they have similar spells to wizard, more are damage based, and they usually won't take a lot of utility. Social Tools - Once again, weird one to judge.
Warlock is sadly last in opinion, but always first in my heart. They have very stable DPR with eldritch blast, and good utility and debuffs, but it ends there. DPR - 9/10 CC+Debuffs - 10/10, some crowd control, almost all in on debuffs. Heal+Buffs - 1/10 Utility+Skills - 6/10, I have to have the low amount of spells drag skills down, but utility is good because of spells and invocations. Social Tools - This is like a mirror to cleric, as they may be on the lower end of this.
Ok, the list ain't perfect, but that's how I see it.
I'll make different lists, one for overall considering these things, and one for how they rate one those things.
Bard I'd give 1st place. They have great everything, and exceptional social tools above all. DPR - 9/10 CC+Debuffs - 7/10 Heals+Buffs - 8/10 Utility+Skills - 9/10 Social Tools - 10/10
Cleric is second I say. Normally I would say 1st, but with just whats in mind, second. They have so many subclasses, and spells. DPR - 8/10 CC+Debuffs - 6/10 Heals+Buffs - 10/10 Utility+Skills - 8/10 Social Tools - Eh, can place just about anywhere. Maybe the higher end.
Wizard is third, but carried by their immense utility. They also have great DPR, but it gets low fast after you burn through your best slots. DPR - 9/10 CC+Debuffs - 8/10 Heal+Buffs - 3/10 Utility+Skills - 10/10 Social Tools - Also weird area. They have telepathy and such, and speaking across languages. 6/10?
Druid I give fourth, because they are a little unique. Not much in DPR, but buffs, debuffs, and utility are exceptional. Wild shape I don't think applies here. DPR - 5/10 CC+Debuffs - 7/10 Heal+Buffs - 9/10 Utility+Skills - 9/10 Social Tools - Maybe 8/10
Sorcerer is fun and powerful when used right, but damage is a key feature. Though it comes to the same problems as wizard DPR. DPR - 10/10 CC+Debuffs - 8/10, less debuffs but good crowd control, especially with meta magic. Heal+Buffs - 1/10 Utility+Skills - 5/10, while they have similar spells to wizard, more are damage based, and they usually won't take a lot of utility. Social Tools - Once again, weird one to judge.
Warlock is sadly last in opinion, but always first in my heart. They have very stable DPR with eldritch blast, and good utility and debuffs, but it ends there. DPR - 9/10 CC+Debuffs - 10/10, some crowd control, almost all in on debuffs. Heal+Buffs - 1/10 Utility+Skills - 6/10, I have to have the low amount of spells drag skills down, but utility is good because of spells and invocations. Social Tools - This is like a mirror to cleric, as they may be on the lower end of this.
Ok, the list ain't perfect, but that's how I see it.
That's exactly what I was looking for, thank you very much for your reply! I know that each subclass should impact these rating points in a diferent way, but the goal is to have an overall idea of the spellcasters. turned out really nice!
Seems like Warlocks its your favorite Class! I like Wizards and Sorcerers. Each class have their own "special flavor"
did someone say sorcerers aren’t good at buffing, while they’re not as good as some other classes in that regard the ability to twin singler buff spells like haste is actually pretty powerful
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Marvarax andSora (Dragonborn) The retired fighter and WIP scholar - Glory
Brythel(Dwarf), The dwarf with a gun - survival at sea
Jaylin(Human), Paladin of Lathander's Ancient ways - The Seven Saints (Azura Claw)
Urselles(Goblin), Cleric of Eldath- The Wizard's challenge
Viclas Tyrin(Half Elf), Student of the Elven arts- Indrafatmoko's Defiance in Phlan
Regarding only Full Spellcaster Classes: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock. Considering mid level range (lvl 5 to 10). How would you rate these Classes in terms of: 1. DPR 2. CC+Debuffs 3. Heals+Buffs 4. Utility+Skills 5. Social Tools
I'm not going to do a comprehensive list just list them by rank:
Regarding only Full Spellcaster Classes: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock. Considering mid level range (lvl 5 to 10). How would you rate these Classes in terms of: 1. DPR 2. CC+Debuffs 3. Heals+Buffs 4. Utility+Skills 5. Social Tools
I'm not going to do a comprehensive list just list them by rank:
Regarding only Full Spellcaster Classes: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock. Considering mid level range (lvl 5 to 10). How would you rate these Classes in terms of: 1. DPR 2. CC+Debuffs 3. Heals+Buffs 4. Utility+Skills 5. Social Tools
I'm not going to do a comprehensive list just list them by rank:
Is sorcerer really that bad in Utility/Skills? Off combat a sorcerer should focus more on dealing with Social encounters?
It is at least markably worse at utility and skills than the other classes listed. Their skills are about the same as wizards and their spell list is basically a reduced wizard list with no ritual casting. The one aspect where they have room for versatility is their many cantrips.
Social envounters were ranked separately, and I ranked sorcerers pretty high there.
Man, you guys undervalue druids on a couple of things. :)
DPR: maybe doesn't seem great, but throw out conjure animals and you now have four apes with multiattack. Send them all against a single target - they'll probably average a hit each, so that's 26 damage (average) a round from the apes. Then wildshape yourself into a dire wolf. You get 34 temporary HP, advantage thanks to pack tactics, AND a good chance to knock the target prone, which gives the apes advantage on their next round... At higher levels you shift to conjure woodland beings or conjure elemental and repeat.
CC/Debuff - A good 1/3 of the druid spell list falls in this category. Mold earth, earth tremor, entangle, fog cloud, snare, dust devil, earthbind, hold person, moonbeam, spike growth, warding wind, call lightning, dispel magic, erupting earth, sleet storm, tidal wave, wall of water, wind wall, charm monster, confusion, elemental bane, hallucinatory terrain, ice storm, wall of fire... (and that's just up through 4th level spells)
Regarding only Full Spellcaster Classes: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock. Considering mid level range (lvl 5 to 10). How would you rate these Classes in terms of: 1. DPR 2. CC+Debuffs 3. Heals+Buffs 4. Utility+Skills 5. Social Tools
The subclasses throw this off and there is a lot of Shrodinger's going on when some classes can excel in many areas but the opportunity costs lock out some options in favor of others. So take all the answers with a grain of salt.
DPR -- This is complicated because there is consistent damage versus burst damage to consider. Extra attacks multiplying bonuses tends to give better damage than spells in general so swords or valor bard, blade pact warlock, or agonizing blast warlock give solid sustainable damage (relative to casters). The ability to modify other cantrips gives better sustainable damage over typical cantrips so draconic sorcerers and evokers for example, along with caster domain style clerics. Burst damage is still based largely on the ability to modify those spells, so sorcerers in general through meta-magic or evokers (sculpt spell subtly, and empowered evocation at 10th level), after that every caster has direct damage options that work. In this level range I think draconic sorcerers are the best balance of both.
CC+Debuffs -- Wizards have range of spells and preparation slots to facilitate targeting weak saves. This is a wizard strong point and enchanters have additional abilities to enhance it. Sorcerers in general using meta-magic have strong options here and wild magic sorcerers bend luck to help them out. Bards have a strong CC/debuff spell list and lore bards also have cutting words as an additional debuff. All spell casters have so debuff / cc options.
Heals+Buffs -- Life cleric tends to dominate and the cleric spell list has some of the best healing and buffs available. After that I think it's a bit of a toss up between druids or lore bards built for healing. Druids have the better healing spells by default but bards have a very solid list of healing to start with, and can add spells via secrets for a very strong list. Bards add bardic inspiration to the buffing and song of rest to the healing outside of spells so there's a pretty strong argument for lore bards focused on healing. Other bards fall in after that, and if there is access to non-PHB material we have options like the divine soul sorcerer or celestial warlock for healing. Warlocks, sorcerers, and wizards generally do not have a lot to work with in healing but sorcerers can twin concentration buffs so they have a solid point there. I'd put sorcerers ahead of the other two based on that.
Utility+Skills -- The definition of utility tends to be subjective but lore bards and knowledge clerics tend to cover straight up skill proficiency, then other bards. Ritual casting can be useful and wizards have the best ritual casting ability here, plus some of the subclass options can add a lot here. Tome pact warlocks have a lot of potential here between spells, cantrips, rituals, and other invocations. Wild shape can add a lot of ability.
Social Tools -- Loaded question. Charisma is used to influence people but wisdom is used to avoid being influenced and intelligence is used in knowing what to expect. Charisma is often the focus but other ability scores matter. Spells can modify these checks and many spells use these checks. Bards combining charisma, skill benefits, and potential spells available take this. Sorcerers with charisma focus, potential spells, and meta-magic to improve those spells are solid. Warlocks (particularly fey patron) also combine potential spells with charisma.
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Regarding only Full Spellcaster Classes: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock.
Considering mid level range (lvl 5 to 10).
How would you rate these Classes in terms of:
1. DPR
2. CC+Debuffs
3. Heals+Buffs
4. Utility+Skills
5. Social Tools
I'll make different lists, one for overall considering these things, and one for how they rate one those things.
Bard I'd give 1st place. They have great everything, and exceptional social tools above all.
DPR - 9/10
CC+Debuffs - 7/10
Heals+Buffs - 8/10
Utility+Skills - 9/10
Social Tools - 10/10
Cleric is second I say. Normally I would say 1st, but with just whats in mind, second. They have so many subclasses, and spells.
DPR - 8/10
CC+Debuffs - 6/10
Heals+Buffs - 10/10
Utility+Skills - 8/10
Social Tools - Eh, can place just about anywhere. Maybe the higher end.
Wizard is third, but carried by their immense utility. They also have great DPR, but it gets low fast after you burn through your best slots.
DPR - 9/10
CC+Debuffs - 8/10
Heal+Buffs - 3/10
Utility+Skills - 10/10
Social Tools - Also weird area. They have telepathy and such, and speaking across languages. 6/10?
Druid I give fourth, because they are a little unique. Not much in DPR, but buffs, debuffs, and utility are exceptional. Wild shape I don't think applies here.
DPR - 5/10
CC+Debuffs - 7/10
Heal+Buffs - 9/10
Utility+Skills - 9/10
Social Tools - Maybe 8/10
Sorcerer is fun and powerful when used right, but damage is a key feature. Though it comes to the same problems as wizard DPR.
DPR - 10/10
CC+Debuffs - 8/10, less debuffs but good crowd control, especially with meta magic.
Heal+Buffs - 1/10
Utility+Skills - 5/10, while they have similar spells to wizard, more are damage based, and they usually won't take a lot of utility.
Social Tools - Once again, weird one to judge.
Warlock is sadly last in opinion, but always first in my heart. They have very stable DPR with eldritch blast, and good utility and debuffs, but it ends there.
DPR - 9/10
CC+Debuffs - 10/10, some crowd control, almost all in on debuffs.
Heal+Buffs - 1/10
Utility+Skills - 6/10, I have to have the low amount of spells drag skills down, but utility is good because of spells and invocations.
Social Tools - This is like a mirror to cleric, as they may be on the lower end of this.
Ok, the list ain't perfect, but that's how I see it.
Also known as CrafterB and DankMemer.
Here, have some homebrew classes! Subclasses to? Why not races. Feats, feats as well. I have a lot of magic items. Lastly I got monsters, fun, fun times.
That's exactly what I was looking for, thank you very much for your reply! I know that each subclass should impact these rating points in a diferent way, but the goal is to have an overall idea of the spellcasters. turned out really nice!
Seems like Warlocks its your favorite Class! I like Wizards and Sorcerers. Each class have their own "special flavor"
Kicks in door
did someone say sorcerers aren’t good at buffing, while they’re not as good as some other classes in that regard the ability to twin singler buff spells like haste is actually pretty powerful
Marvarax and Sora (Dragonborn) The retired fighter and WIP scholar - Glory
Brythel(Dwarf), The dwarf with a gun - survival at sea
Jaylin(Human), Paladin of Lathander's Ancient ways - The Seven Saints (Azura Claw)
Urselles(Goblin), Cleric of Eldath- The Wizard's challenge
Viclas Tyrin(Half Elf), Student of the Elven arts- Indrafatmoko's Defiance in Phlan
Divine Soul Sorcerer would have a 10/10 for Heal/Buffs
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I'm not going to do a comprehensive list just list them by rank:
Is sorcerer really that bad in Utility/Skills? Off combat a sorcerer should focus more on dealing with Social encounters?
the problem is most of the good utility spells are not on the sorcerer spell list. And sorcerer's only get 2 class skills.
It is at least markably worse at utility and skills than the other classes listed. Their skills are about the same as wizards and their spell list is basically a reduced wizard list with no ritual casting. The one aspect where they have room for versatility is their many cantrips.
Social envounters were ranked separately, and I ranked sorcerers pretty high there.
Man, you guys undervalue druids on a couple of things. :)
DPR: maybe doesn't seem great, but throw out conjure animals and you now have four apes with multiattack. Send them all against a single target - they'll probably average a hit each, so that's 26 damage (average) a round from the apes. Then wildshape yourself into a dire wolf. You get 34 temporary HP, advantage thanks to pack tactics, AND a good chance to knock the target prone, which gives the apes advantage on their next round... At higher levels you shift to conjure woodland beings or conjure elemental and repeat.
CC/Debuff - A good 1/3 of the druid spell list falls in this category. Mold earth, earth tremor, entangle, fog cloud, snare, dust devil, earthbind, hold person, moonbeam, spike growth, warding wind, call lightning, dispel magic, erupting earth, sleet storm, tidal wave, wall of water, wind wall, charm monster, confusion, elemental bane, hallucinatory terrain, ice storm, wall of fire... (and that's just up through 4th level spells)
The subclasses throw this off and there is a lot of Shrodinger's going on when some classes can excel in many areas but the opportunity costs lock out some options in favor of others. So take all the answers with a grain of salt.
DPR -- This is complicated because there is consistent damage versus burst damage to consider. Extra attacks multiplying bonuses tends to give better damage than spells in general so swords or valor bard, blade pact warlock, or agonizing blast warlock give solid sustainable damage (relative to casters). The ability to modify other cantrips gives better sustainable damage over typical cantrips so draconic sorcerers and evokers for example, along with caster domain style clerics. Burst damage is still based largely on the ability to modify those spells, so sorcerers in general through meta-magic or evokers (sculpt spell subtly, and empowered evocation at 10th level), after that every caster has direct damage options that work. In this level range I think draconic sorcerers are the best balance of both.
CC+Debuffs -- Wizards have range of spells and preparation slots to facilitate targeting weak saves. This is a wizard strong point and enchanters have additional abilities to enhance it. Sorcerers in general using meta-magic have strong options here and wild magic sorcerers bend luck to help them out. Bards have a strong CC/debuff spell list and lore bards also have cutting words as an additional debuff. All spell casters have so debuff / cc options.
Heals+Buffs -- Life cleric tends to dominate and the cleric spell list has some of the best healing and buffs available. After that I think it's a bit of a toss up between druids or lore bards built for healing. Druids have the better healing spells by default but bards have a very solid list of healing to start with, and can add spells via secrets for a very strong list. Bards add bardic inspiration to the buffing and song of rest to the healing outside of spells so there's a pretty strong argument for lore bards focused on healing. Other bards fall in after that, and if there is access to non-PHB material we have options like the divine soul sorcerer or celestial warlock for healing. Warlocks, sorcerers, and wizards generally do not have a lot to work with in healing but sorcerers can twin concentration buffs so they have a solid point there. I'd put sorcerers ahead of the other two based on that.
Utility+Skills -- The definition of utility tends to be subjective but lore bards and knowledge clerics tend to cover straight up skill proficiency, then other bards. Ritual casting can be useful and wizards have the best ritual casting ability here, plus some of the subclass options can add a lot here. Tome pact warlocks have a lot of potential here between spells, cantrips, rituals, and other invocations. Wild shape can add a lot of ability.
Social Tools -- Loaded question. Charisma is used to influence people but wisdom is used to avoid being influenced and intelligence is used in knowing what to expect. Charisma is often the focus but other ability scores matter. Spells can modify these checks and many spells use these checks. Bards combining charisma, skill benefits, and potential spells available take this. Sorcerers with charisma focus, potential spells, and meta-magic to improve those spells are solid. Warlocks (particularly fey patron) also combine potential spells with charisma.