Seriously, this is getting inane since there are now doofuses on Twitter dragging Gary Gygax for the author of Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk making Iggwilv not only the same character as Tasha of the Hideous Laughter (a spell inspired by a young girl who was a fan who asked Gary in a letter in crayon to make a spell involving laughter) but ALSO the evil demon-binding seductress Natasha the Dark of The Dancing Hut adventure (from Dragon #83). People are making it out that Gygax (who is dead and has no way to defend himself) was some kind of creep and that D&D in the 80s had a "problem with that kind of stuff".
First of all, Iggwilv basically IS Baba Yaga in The World of Greyhawk. She is said in S4: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth to be long dead in the background text, but Tenser in WG6: Isle of the Ape blows that theory out of the water saying she most certainly wasn't and referencing the fact her daughter Drelnza had been "laid low" (which could mean she was killed in canon as opposed to simply being turned into vampire....or could be referring to another daughter altogether. More on that in a bit). Anyway, Gary Gygax said years later that Iggwilv had 2 appearances (much like her son, the demigod Iuz the Old): an old crone (Baba Yaga in all but name) and a young beautiful woman with long hair (there is an illo in S4 in the Graz'zt entry that could very well be Iggwilv fighting him when he got loose). Furthermore, he said she was at least a Demigod in rank by CY576, if not higher as a Lesser Goddess, which fits since she could not intervene directly in The Isle of the Ape's demiplane against the adventurers trying to recover The Crook of Rao (only Demigods may interact with the world directly on Greyhawk due an agreement with all the powers).
Iggwilv, being the author of The Demonomicon of Iggwilv had to have been dual-classed as the Demonomicon had high level Mage and Cleric spells (both requiring at minimum 16th level in each, and Iggwilv is said to have been an Archmage in rank, meaning 18th lvl minimum). In this regard, she most certainly cannot BE Natasha the Dark (Baba Yaga's adopted daughter) who was a dual-class Illusionist/Mage of 7th/15th level. Yes, they both have dark hair, but Natasha the Dark's hair doesn't have a descriptor besides being "smoky dark" and they're not even in the same ballpark of power (let alone being different classes).
The timelines don't really match up for Iggwilv to have been apprenticed to Zagig under the pseudonym Tasha and for Iuz the Old to have been born of her union with Graz'zt and risen to power in the territory he rules. Now, Iggwilv was probably doing the same thing as Zagig in gaining apotheosis (she probably was a Quasi-Deity by the time she conquered the part of Perrenland and the territories around The Caverns of Tsojcanth). However, she was likely quite ancient when she achieved that status sometime in CY476 and her mortal life had to have been much earlier (like, hundreds of years earlier if not longer).
Concerning Tasha of the Hideous Laughter, she most certainly cannot be Natasha the Dark since the latter doesn't have that spell listed as one of hers (and if the connection was intended, then the text would have said so). Natasha the Dark could very well be the adopted daughter of Iggwilv and the one Tenser refers to in WG6 if she was killed canonically in the adventure (though alternately it could even be the other adopted daughter, Elena the Fair if the adventuring party was of an evil or neutral bent).
The simplest answer is that all 3 of these personages are different people. Iggwilv is something akin to a Lesser Goddess and Oerth's version of Baba Yaga. Natasha the Dark is her adopted daughter who was either killed (as per Tenser's declaration) or still running around causing mischief. Tasha of the Hideous Laughter is just another famous Mage of the Flanaess (maybe she's on the shortlist to join The Circle of Eight). Any connection between the 3 was a rumor started by Natasha the Dark to "increase her cred" with the forces of Evil (it may have even amused her "mother" Iggwilv and served her purposes to tarnish the name of the upstanding Tasha of the Hideous Laughter).
Oh yea, according to Gygax: Tsojcanth was the mage that imprisoned the avatar of Tharizdun that is below The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun nearby to The Lost Caverns in the Yatil Mountains. He wasn't a demon but was in fact a good Archmage. He also presumably had no involvement with Iggwilv whatsoever being he lived sometime around the time of The Invoked Devastation/Rain of Colorless Fire (which the Avatar of Tharizdun may have helped to orchestrate). Iggwilv just found his caverns later and made judicious use of them.
I never heard of any of these characters (except Baba Yaga). Why are people upset about this?
For us older fans who were Greyhawk fans, its basically retconning things for no reason and/or inane reasons. Until he died, Gary Gygax gave us tidbits of info that were just as easily available to the IP owners as the rest of us (it is, after, the Age of the Internet). Its like making Tharizdun the same as The Elder Elemental God when there was no connection ever between the two.
As for the doofuses on Twitter, they're making the insane connection of the Gygax created Mage Tasha of the Hideous Laughter (based on the request of a young girl who was a D&D fan) with the villainous demon-binding seductress Natasha the Dark of The Dancing Hut adventure (by Roger E. Moore) with one of the main villains (also a creation of Gary Gygax) of The World of Greyhawk setting: the Lesser Goddess Iggwilv, formerly the Witch-Queen of Perrenland. The idea is that somehow Gary was a creep for doing this....even though there was no connection between Natasha the Dark and Tasha of the Hideous laughter, let alone Iggwilv beyond the fact the latter is basically Baba Yaga in Greyhawk. And Iggwilv being Natasha is impossible as they two different characters beyond the connection with demon-binding. Making Tasha an alias for Iggwilv and an apprentice to Zagig Yragerne also doesn't work since the timelines don't match up (she would have been a Hero-Deity and/or Quasi-Deity by the time Zagig was born and a Demigod BEFORE Zagig tried the same thing in the early part of the CY500s when he kidnapped and imprisoned 9 Demigods of the setting).
The bottom line is that setting as it was first established should be respected. It shouldn't be too much to ask that the IP owners actually care about us older fans who were here first. Instead of weaving a better story where Iggwilv, Natasha the Dark and Tasha of the Hideous Laughter are all different characters (and thus fleshing them out), the story became compacted by confusing/conflating all 3. Making Iggwilv the daughter of Baba Yaga instead of BEING Baba Yaga in Greyhawk makes her less of an interesting villain. Tasha of the Hideous Laughter should be made into a fully realized character, not simply appended to Iggwilv and Natasha the Dark (beyond the implications of the people that want to make it out that Gary was a creep).
DM Steve@DeeEmSteve Just remembered now that Tasha is named after the little girl who sent Gygax a letter (in crayon) asking for a spell involving laughter... and then was written to be this evil seductress trope. D&D, y'all. - Twitter
This is why people like me are mad. This disgusting attempt to throw Gary Gygax (and by extension all of us older fans) under the bus for something neither Gary nor Roger E. Moore actually did....nor even intended. I'm among those who lived through The Satanic Panic and had a hard enough time as a teenager for being a D&D fan as it was, I'll be damned if I'm gonna be tarred and feathered AGAIN by the same kind of outrage mob. All for the actions of WotC staff writers in the early 2000s who didn't think for half a second about what they were doing because they couldn't be bothered to ask Gygax (creator of the setting) some things about Iggwilv.
DM Steve@DeeEmSteve Just remembered now that Tasha is named after the little girl who sent Gygax a letter (in crayon) asking for a spell involving laughter... and then was written to be this evil seductress trope. D&D, y'all. - Twitter
It really shows how some people just don't make an effort to research anything at all and then just made the boldest statements.
DM Steve@DeeEmSteve Just remembered now that Tasha is named after the little girl who sent Gygax a letter (in crayon) asking for a spell involving laughter... and then was written to be this evil seductress trope. D&D, y'all. - Twitter
It really shows how some people just don't make an effort to research anything at all and then just made the boldest statements.
In this case, the WotC staff writers who worked on Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk....whose only saving grace is undoing the moronic 2E anti-Gygax Rary the Traitor by making the Robilar that killed his former dungeon delving companion Tenser to in fact be Bilarro, Robilar's Mirror Universe counterpart. And the outrage mob of drooling morons who think it was Gary being a creep for associating Tasha with Natasha the Dark and Iggwilv the Witch-Queen.
DM Steve@DeeEmSteve Just remembered now that Tasha is named after the little girl who sent Gygax a letter (in crayon) asking for a spell involving laughter... and then was written to be this evil seductress trope. D&D, y'all. - Twitter
This is why people like me are mad. This disgusting attempt to throw Gary Gygax (and by extension all of us older fans) under the bus for something neither Gary nor Roger E. Moore actually did....nor even intended. I'm among those who lived through The Satanic Panic and had a hard enough time as a teenager for being a D&D fan as it was, I'll be damned if I'm gonna be tarred and feathered AGAIN by the same kind of outrage mob. All for the actions of WotC staff writers in the early 2000s who didn't think for half a second about what they were doing because they couldn't be bothered to ask Gygax (creator of the setting) some things about Iggwilv.
Wow
You sound like the Federalist Society (people who think that the Constitution should be interpreted strictly based on what the Founding Fathers wanted)
Not saying that’s good or bad. Just making a comparison.
Thank you for explaining though. I really didn’t know why people were so upset.
DM Steve@DeeEmSteve Just remembered now that Tasha is named after the little girl who sent Gygax a letter (in crayon) asking for a spell involving laughter... and then was written to be this evil seductress trope. D&D, y'all. - Twitter
This is why people like me are mad. This disgusting attempt to throw Gary Gygax (and by extension all of us older fans) under the bus for something neither Gary nor Roger E. Moore actually did....nor even intended. I'm among those who lived through The Satanic Panic and had a hard enough time as a teenager for being a D&D fan as it was, I'll be damned if I'm gonna be tarred and feathered AGAIN by the same kind of outrage mob. All for the actions of WotC staff writers in the early 2000s who didn't think for half a second about what they were doing because they couldn't be bothered to ask Gygax (creator of the setting) some things about Iggwilv.
Wow
You sound like the Federalist Society (people who think that the Constitution should be interpreted strictly based on what the Founding Fathers wanted)
Not saying that’s good or bad. Just making a comparison.
Thank you for explaining though. I really didn’t know why people were so upset.
:snicker:
Not to get too sidetracked...but if you knew me in real-life you would realize how funny that statement is......
Oh wow....if this is what the writer of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything actually wrote/thinks, then he clearly has no intention of actually following either the Alignment system (since Good/Evil are not abstract concepts but verifiable forces built into the fabric of the multiverse) and has retconned Iggwilv in a way that excuses her evil actions (which is disgusting in its implications).
Tasha is whatever alignment suits her for the day, so I guess in that sense she is true neutral.
No, she's CHAOTIC EVIL and has ALWAYS been Chaotic Evil. WotC needs to STOP screwing with the lore of Greyhawk.
Oh wow....if this is what the writer of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything actually wrote/thinks, then he clearly has no intention of actually following either the Alignment system (since Good/Evil are not abstract concepts but verifiable forces built into the fabric of the multiverse) and has retconned Iggwilv in a way that excuses her evil actions (which is disgusting in its implications).
Tasha is whatever alignment suits her for the day, so I guess in that sense she is true neutral.
No, she's CHAOTIC EVIL and has ALWAYS been Chaotic Evil. WotC needs to STOP screwing with the lore of Greyhawk.
I’m sorry. You seem nice, but I have to disagree with you here. I’ve read some of the old Greyhawk stuff and it’s kind of generic. And I never liked the idea of good and evil as absolutes. I think what they’re doing now is making the setting more nuanced, more interesting.
Also uh... it doesn't particularly matter what it is then, what it is now is all three are the same character... or at the very least Tasha and Iggy-gal are the same character, since the earliest reference I can find from 2007 is confirming that Tasha is just the alias she used while with the Company of Seven (and presumably when she created Hideous Laughter) and that she is related to Natasha the Dark (though it would explain the nickname Tasha if it did actually come from Natasha... but who cares, going off citations I could find, namely Dragon #359). The fact that this is only now causing a fuss 13 years later just goes to show how little this matters...
They're the same person, in canon, 100% since at least 2007 in published history, and probably at least a little bit earlier...
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Also uh... it doesn't particularly matter what it is then, what it is now is all three are the same character... or at the very least Tasha and Iggy-gal are the same character, since the earliest reference I can find from 2007 is confirming that Tasha is just the alias she used while with the Company of Seven (and presumably when she created Hideous Laughter) and that she is related to Natasha the Dark (though it would explain the nickname Tasha if it did actually come from Natasha... but who cares, going off citations I could find, namely Dragon #359). The fact that this is only now causing a fuss 13 years later just goes to show how little this matters...
They're the same person, in canon, 100% since at least 2007 in published history, and probably at least a little bit earlier...
EDIT: added a citation
Right. This is all much ado about nothing (I studied Shakespeare in college lol). There’s nothing wrong (and actually a lot right) with changing canon if it makes the setting better.
Considering I have detested what they did with Lolth since Forgotten Realms started stealing anything/everything not nailed down in Greyhawk, I'd say I was outraged when the "Internet" most people used was "Telnet" back in the early 1990s....
Considering I have detested what they did with Lolth since Forgotten Realms started stealing anything/everything not nailed down in Greyhawk, I'd say I was outraged when the "Internet" most people used was "Telnet" back in the early 1990s....
Telnet?
I don’t see anything wrong with changing canon if it advances the storyline in a meaningful way or allows for more character development. I also don’t think creating a seductive character of either gender necessarily makes Gary Gygax a creep (though I do think including a table in the original DMG that shows what kind of prostitute your characters meet and how sexy they are is a little sketchy).
As I recall both are her as Corellon's consort who betrays him and is cast out as a Tanar'ri for her trouble before she earns her way back to godhood.
Vs now where she's the reason elves look like elves period and Corellon hates her because she's not Chaotic enough and ruined his shape changing super kids.
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Seriously, this is getting inane since there are now doofuses on Twitter dragging Gary Gygax for the author of Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk making Iggwilv not only the same character as Tasha of the Hideous Laughter (a spell inspired by a young girl who was a fan who asked Gary in a letter in crayon to make a spell involving laughter) but ALSO the evil demon-binding seductress Natasha the Dark of The Dancing Hut adventure (from Dragon #83). People are making it out that Gygax (who is dead and has no way to defend himself) was some kind of creep and that D&D in the 80s had a "problem with that kind of stuff".
First of all, Iggwilv basically IS Baba Yaga in The World of Greyhawk. She is said in S4: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth to be long dead in the background text, but Tenser in WG6: Isle of the Ape blows that theory out of the water saying she most certainly wasn't and referencing the fact her daughter Drelnza had been "laid low" (which could mean she was killed in canon as opposed to simply being turned into vampire....or could be referring to another daughter altogether. More on that in a bit). Anyway, Gary Gygax said years later that Iggwilv had 2 appearances (much like her son, the demigod Iuz the Old): an old crone (Baba Yaga in all but name) and a young beautiful woman with long hair (there is an illo in S4 in the Graz'zt entry that could very well be Iggwilv fighting him when he got loose). Furthermore, he said she was at least a Demigod in rank by CY576, if not higher as a Lesser Goddess, which fits since she could not intervene directly in The Isle of the Ape's demiplane against the adventurers trying to recover The Crook of Rao (only Demigods may interact with the world directly on Greyhawk due an agreement with all the powers).
Iggwilv, being the author of The Demonomicon of Iggwilv had to have been dual-classed as the Demonomicon had high level Mage and Cleric spells (both requiring at minimum 16th level in each, and Iggwilv is said to have been an Archmage in rank, meaning 18th lvl minimum). In this regard, she most certainly cannot BE Natasha the Dark (Baba Yaga's adopted daughter) who was a dual-class Illusionist/Mage of 7th/15th level. Yes, they both have dark hair, but Natasha the Dark's hair doesn't have a descriptor besides being "smoky dark" and they're not even in the same ballpark of power (let alone being different classes).
The timelines don't really match up for Iggwilv to have been apprenticed to Zagig under the pseudonym Tasha and for Iuz the Old to have been born of her union with Graz'zt and risen to power in the territory he rules. Now, Iggwilv was probably doing the same thing as Zagig in gaining apotheosis (she probably was a Quasi-Deity by the time she conquered the part of Perrenland and the territories around The Caverns of Tsojcanth). However, she was likely quite ancient when she achieved that status sometime in CY476 and her mortal life had to have been much earlier (like, hundreds of years earlier if not longer).
Concerning Tasha of the Hideous Laughter, she most certainly cannot be Natasha the Dark since the latter doesn't have that spell listed as one of hers (and if the connection was intended, then the text would have said so). Natasha the Dark could very well be the adopted daughter of Iggwilv and the one Tenser refers to in WG6 if she was killed canonically in the adventure (though alternately it could even be the other adopted daughter, Elena the Fair if the adventuring party was of an evil or neutral bent).
The simplest answer is that all 3 of these personages are different people. Iggwilv is something akin to a Lesser Goddess and Oerth's version of Baba Yaga. Natasha the Dark is her adopted daughter who was either killed (as per Tenser's declaration) or still running around causing mischief. Tasha of the Hideous Laughter is just another famous Mage of the Flanaess (maybe she's on the shortlist to join The Circle of Eight). Any connection between the 3 was a rumor started by Natasha the Dark to "increase her cred" with the forces of Evil (it may have even amused her "mother" Iggwilv and served her purposes to tarnish the name of the upstanding Tasha of the Hideous Laughter).
Oh yea, according to Gygax: Tsojcanth was the mage that imprisoned the avatar of Tharizdun that is below The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun nearby to The Lost Caverns in the Yatil Mountains. He wasn't a demon but was in fact a good Archmage. He also presumably had no involvement with Iggwilv whatsoever being he lived sometime around the time of The Invoked Devastation/Rain of Colorless Fire (which the Avatar of Tharizdun may have helped to orchestrate). Iggwilv just found his caverns later and made judicious use of them.
Good read, thank you.
I never heard of any of these characters (except Baba Yaga). Why are people upset about this?
I've noticed many D&D fans on twitter complain for a living.
SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I still don’t get why they’re upset.
Neither do I.
SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For us older fans who were Greyhawk fans, its basically retconning things for no reason and/or inane reasons. Until he died, Gary Gygax gave us tidbits of info that were just as easily available to the IP owners as the rest of us (it is, after, the Age of the Internet). Its like making Tharizdun the same as The Elder Elemental God when there was no connection ever between the two.
As for the doofuses on Twitter, they're making the insane connection of the Gygax created Mage Tasha of the Hideous Laughter (based on the request of a young girl who was a D&D fan) with the villainous demon-binding seductress Natasha the Dark of The Dancing Hut adventure (by Roger E. Moore) with one of the main villains (also a creation of Gary Gygax) of The World of Greyhawk setting: the Lesser Goddess Iggwilv, formerly the Witch-Queen of Perrenland. The idea is that somehow Gary was a creep for doing this....even though there was no connection between Natasha the Dark and Tasha of the Hideous laughter, let alone Iggwilv beyond the fact the latter is basically Baba Yaga in Greyhawk. And Iggwilv being Natasha is impossible as they two different characters beyond the connection with demon-binding. Making Tasha an alias for Iggwilv and an apprentice to Zagig Yragerne also doesn't work since the timelines don't match up (she would have been a Hero-Deity and/or Quasi-Deity by the time Zagig was born and a Demigod BEFORE Zagig tried the same thing in the early part of the CY500s when he kidnapped and imprisoned 9 Demigods of the setting).
The bottom line is that setting as it was first established should be respected. It shouldn't be too much to ask that the IP owners actually care about us older fans who were here first. Instead of weaving a better story where Iggwilv, Natasha the Dark and Tasha of the Hideous Laughter are all different characters (and thus fleshing them out), the story became compacted by confusing/conflating all 3. Making Iggwilv the daughter of Baba Yaga instead of BEING Baba Yaga in Greyhawk makes her less of an interesting villain. Tasha of the Hideous Laughter should be made into a fully realized character, not simply appended to Iggwilv and Natasha the Dark (beyond the implications of the people that want to make it out that Gary was a creep).
Just remembered now that Tasha is named after the little girl who sent Gygax a letter (in crayon) asking for a spell involving laughter... and then was written to be this evil seductress trope. D&D, y'all. - Twitter
This is why people like me are mad. This disgusting attempt to throw Gary Gygax (and by extension all of us older fans) under the bus for something neither Gary nor Roger E. Moore actually did....nor even intended. I'm among those who lived through The Satanic Panic and had a hard enough time as a teenager for being a D&D fan as it was, I'll be damned if I'm gonna be tarred and feathered AGAIN by the same kind of outrage mob. All for the actions of WotC staff writers in the early 2000s who didn't think for half a second about what they were doing because they couldn't be bothered to ask Gygax (creator of the setting) some things about Iggwilv.
It really shows how some people just don't make an effort to research anything at all and then just made the boldest statements.
SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In this case, the WotC staff writers who worked on Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk....whose only saving grace is undoing the moronic 2E anti-Gygax Rary the Traitor by making the Robilar that killed his former dungeon delving companion Tenser to in fact be Bilarro, Robilar's Mirror Universe counterpart. And the outrage mob of drooling morons who think it was Gary being a creep for associating Tasha with Natasha the Dark and Iggwilv the Witch-Queen.
Wow
You sound like the Federalist Society (people who think that the Constitution should be interpreted strictly based on what the Founding Fathers wanted)
Not saying that’s good or bad. Just making a comparison.
Thank you for explaining though. I really didn’t know why people were so upset.
:snicker:
Not to get too sidetracked...but if you knew me in real-life you would realize how funny that statement is......
~_^
Oh wow....if this is what the writer of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything actually wrote/thinks, then he clearly has no intention of actually following either the Alignment system (since Good/Evil are not abstract concepts but verifiable forces built into the fabric of the multiverse) and has retconned Iggwilv in a way that excuses her evil actions (which is disgusting in its implications).
Tasha is whatever alignment suits her for the day, so I guess in that sense she is true neutral.
No, she's CHAOTIC EVIL and has ALWAYS been Chaotic Evil. WotC needs to STOP screwing with the lore of Greyhawk.
I’m sorry. You seem nice, but I have to disagree with you here. I’ve read some of the old Greyhawk stuff and it’s kind of generic. And I never liked the idea of good and evil as absolutes. I think what they’re doing now is making the setting more nuanced, more interesting.
Also uh... it doesn't particularly matter what it is then, what it is now is all three are the same character... or at the very least Tasha and Iggy-gal are the same character, since the earliest reference I can find from 2007 is confirming that Tasha is just the alias she used while with the Company of Seven (and presumably when she created Hideous Laughter) and that she is related to Natasha the Dark (though it would explain the nickname Tasha if it did actually come from Natasha... but who cares, going off citations I could find, namely Dragon #359). The fact that this is only now causing a fuss 13 years later just goes to show how little this matters...
They're the same person, in canon, 100% since at least 2007 in published history, and probably at least a little bit earlier...
EDIT: added a citation
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Right. This is all much ado about nothing (I studied Shakespeare in college lol). There’s nothing wrong (and actually a lot right) with changing canon if it makes the setting better.
Curious where this outrage was when they completely altered canon for Corellon, Lolth and the Seldarine.
If you don't like a change, don't change it. But it's not hurting you to give new folks a different idea.
Considering I have detested what they did with Lolth since Forgotten Realms started stealing anything/everything not nailed down in Greyhawk, I'd say I was outraged when the "Internet" most people used was "Telnet" back in the early 1990s....
Telnet?
I don’t see anything wrong with changing canon if it advances the storyline in a meaningful way or allows for more character development. I also don’t think creating a seductive character of either gender necessarily makes Gary Gygax a creep (though I do think including a table in the original DMG that shows what kind of prostitute your characters meet and how sexy they are is a little sketchy).
What was changed from GH to FR?
As I recall both are her as Corellon's consort who betrays him and is cast out as a Tanar'ri for her trouble before she earns her way back to godhood.
Vs now where she's the reason elves look like elves period and Corellon hates her because she's not Chaotic enough and ruined his shape changing super kids.