Ok, I know it’s not RAW or even RAI, but would it really be breaking game balance to allow a Druid or ranger ( or anyone else with access to the spell) to cast shillelagh on a spear, especially one being wielded two handed? In tier one I don’t really see a problem - the spear already does 1d8 damage and the spell already turns a mundane weapon into a magical one and allows it to do force damage rather than normal damage so I don’t really see the problem there. However, by tier 4 the combo is now doing 4 d8 damage (16 damage average per hit) nice but not overpowering. Onyone see any reason not to allow this as a house rule?
I see the biggest problem being if they take polearm master interaction but otherwise seems fine to me maybe the sap property would be slightly unbalanced but I do not know.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
To be fair, they could also do 100% legitimate Polearm Master shenanigans with a quarterstaff. Topple and Sap have roughly the same level of availability, too; neither of them are available to Light or Finesse weapons but they're also not locked behind the Heavy property like Cleave and Graze.
If anything, I'd consider Sap to be slightly less powerful, since the devs were comfortable letting 10th level Fighters always have Sap at their disposal, but not Topple.
Why would the tier 4 spear be doing 4d8 damage? shillelagh replaces the weapon's damage value. The only mechanical differences between a spear and a quarterstaff are damage type (irrelevant here), mastery properties (Topple is probably better than Sap anyway), and the fact you can throw a spear (since the spell ends on releasing the weapon, this probably doesn't do anything).
The spell is limited to club and staff for aesthetic reasons, not balance reasons. The only weapon types where I can see a balance implication is if you allowed it with a reach weapon.
You mis understood, I was saying that if allowed - then even at tier 4 the spear with the shillelagh spell would only be doing 4 d8. Not that the spear by itself would be. I was looking at 2014* specifically. I didn’t think about polearm master, but since it already includes quarterstaff it shouldn’t be a problem. For reference I was playing around with the idea of a strength based halfling beastmaster ranger riding around on their beast wielding “great weapons”. With the guide background you get access to Druidic cantrips and one of the best of those is shillelagh, but the picture in my head of the halfling rding around wielding a glowing staff didn’t work but a spear fit the image in my head. I can’t really see a halfling dragging around a longsword as a great sword but a spear as both a lance and melee “pike” fit. So I was wondering if I was missing something major or if it was just aesthetics that limited the shillelagh spell to club and staff.
Not sure how you’re getting 4 d8 in Tier 4. Shillelagh 2024 rules are :
“A Club or Quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with nature’s power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon’s damage die becomes a d8. If the attack deals damage, it can be Force damage or the weapon’s normal damage type (your choice).
The spell ends early if you cast it again or if you let go of the weapon.
Cantrip Upgrade. The damage die changes when you reach levels 5 (d10), 11 (d12), and 17 (2d6).“
Personally, if I were building your Halfling Beastmaster, I’d prioritise Wisdom over Strength if planning to use Shillelagh. I would anticipate no problems with allowing it for the spear.
I know but I was using the 2014 version in the discussion and it increases the number of dice. The 2024 remains a single die but changes the type as you tier up. That’s where the 4D8 comes from
I know but I was using the 2014 version in the discussion and it increases the number of dice.
No, it doesn't. The 2014 Shillelagh didn't scale at higher levels in any way
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Oops, you’re right, I probably glanced down to the shocking grasp description below it in the app without realizing it since almost every damage cantrip scales damage with tier. Sorry about that.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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Ok, I know it’s not RAW or even RAI, but would it really be breaking game balance to allow a Druid or ranger ( or anyone else with access to the spell) to cast shillelagh on a spear, especially one being wielded two handed? In tier one I don’t really see a problem - the spear already does 1d8 damage and the spell already turns a mundane weapon into a magical one and allows it to do force damage rather than normal damage so I don’t really see the problem there. However, by tier 4 the combo is now doing 4 d8 damage (16 damage average per hit) nice but not overpowering. Onyone see any reason not to allow this as a house rule?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I see the biggest problem being if they take polearm master interaction but otherwise seems fine to me maybe the sap property would be slightly unbalanced but I do not know.
Are we using 2014 or 2024?
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
To be fair, they could also do 100% legitimate Polearm Master shenanigans with a quarterstaff. Topple and Sap have roughly the same level of availability, too; neither of them are available to Light or Finesse weapons but they're also not locked behind the Heavy property like Cleave and Graze.
If anything, I'd consider Sap to be slightly less powerful, since the devs were comfortable letting 10th level Fighters always have Sap at their disposal, but not Topple.
tl;dr I don't see any issues with this either
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Why would the tier 4 spear be doing 4d8 damage? shillelagh replaces the weapon's damage value. The only mechanical differences between a spear and a quarterstaff are damage type (irrelevant here), mastery properties (Topple is probably better than Sap anyway), and the fact you can throw a spear (since the spell ends on releasing the weapon, this probably doesn't do anything).
The spell is limited to club and staff for aesthetic reasons, not balance reasons. The only weapon types where I can see a balance implication is if you allowed it with a reach weapon.
You mis understood, I was saying that if allowed - then even at tier 4 the spear with the shillelagh spell would only be doing 4 d8. Not that the spear by itself would be.
I was looking at 2014* specifically. I didn’t think about polearm master, but since it already includes quarterstaff it shouldn’t be a problem. For reference I was playing around with the idea of a strength based halfling beastmaster ranger riding around on their beast wielding “great weapons”. With the guide background you get access to Druidic cantrips and one of the best of those is shillelagh, but the picture in my head of the halfling rding around wielding a glowing staff didn’t work but a spear fit the image in my head. I can’t really see a halfling dragging around a longsword as a great sword but a spear as both a lance and melee “pike” fit. So I was wondering if I was missing something major or if it was just aesthetics that limited the shillelagh spell to club and staff.
*edit
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Not sure how you’re getting 4 d8 in Tier 4. Shillelagh 2024 rules are :
“A Club or Quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with nature’s power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon’s damage die becomes a d8. If the attack deals damage, it can be Force damage or the weapon’s normal damage type (your choice).
The spell ends early if you cast it again or if you let go of the weapon.
Cantrip Upgrade. The damage die changes when you reach levels 5 (d10), 11 (d12), and 17 (2d6).“
Personally, if I were building your Halfling Beastmaster, I’d prioritise Wisdom over Strength if planning to use Shillelagh. I would anticipate no problems with allowing it for the spear.
2014 version not 2024 version - upgrades number of dice not type of dice
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The 2014 version didn't upgrade at all.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I know but I was using the 2014 version in the discussion and it increases the number of dice. The 2024 remains a single die but changes the type as you tier up. That’s where the 4D8 comes from
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
No it doesn't. Legacy shillelagh has no level scaling at all.
No, it doesn't. The 2014 Shillelagh didn't scale at higher levels in any way
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Oops, you’re right, I probably glanced down to the shocking grasp description below it in the app without realizing it since almost every damage cantrip scales damage with tier. Sorry about that.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.