Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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i'm looking at a monster stat block where the ability scores have different "Mod" and "Save" values. How does one determine the spellcasting modifier? Let's say the monster's PB=3. The spellcasting modifier s/b 3 + Ability Bonus. Is the Ability Bonus the "Mod" value or the "Save" value? Got to know this in order to calculate the Spell Save DC and the Spell Attack Bonus. Please advise. Thanks.
Mod value. Though you can arbitrarily adjust it for particular monsters anyway, monsters don't really have to follow player rules.
Thank you Panta. Then would the "Save" ability apply to calculating the Spell Attack Bonus? What then is the purpose of the "Save" property of an Ability score?
It's not documented anywhere in the MM or the DMG, so it must be self evident. I'll move forward with the Ability's "Save" value being the monster's Spell Attack Bonus.
And in published monsters is always 8 less than save DC (they can be different for PCs because of items that buff one but not the other, but monster stats do not generally include items).
What I have read says that the Spellcasting Modifier = Proficiency Bonus + Ability Bonus – 3+2 = 5
Spell Save DC is calculated as 8 + Spellcasting Modifier (Foes must roll this to save). So typically Foes must roll DC = 8+ 3+2 = 13 to save vs my spell. My “Spell Save”
Spell Attack Bonus is the Spellcasting Modifier (Foe’s AC must be higher than my d20 roll + 5)
Regarding Monsters, the Spell Attack Bonus is stated in the ability score’s “Save” value.
As I read it, the monster does not determine the DC for it's saving throws. The DC is set by the attacker.
I read the 2024 DMG page 29, under heading "Calculated DCs" that the Ability Modifier and the Proficency Bonus are included in the DC calulation, along with a constant value "8". This is follwed by text stating that "...it can also apply to ability checks", so clearly, the formula used to calc DC can also used for ability checks, meaning that the PB is part of both the spellcasting modifier and the ability check.
I believe that we are getting different interpretations of the rules because the terminology being used in the documentation is not rigorously applied. What you call Ability Modifier is an Ability Bonus. The Spellcasting Ability Modifier should include the PB. The Spell Attack Bonus is equal to the Spellcasting Ability Modifier. The Spell Save DC is the Spellcasting Ability Modifier plus 8. Refer to the MM page 211, Mummy Lord Stat Block, "Spellcasting" Trait. Its Spell Save is 17, and its Spell Attack Bonus is +9. Now look at its Ability Scores. Its WIS "SAVE" is +9. This is its Spell Attack Bonus. Its Spell Save DC = 8 + (PB +5) + WIS "MOD" of 4 which totals 17. So my interpretation is inline with the Mummy Lord as an example.
Well, not really. They're the same because the mummy lord is proficient at both, and thus the roll is ability modifier plus proficiency bonus.
So imagine that a mummy lord needs to make a WISDOM save. The source of the spell is a scroll and the spell level is 3. What roll does the mummy lord need to save and what bonus is to be added to the roll?
The DC of the save is determined by the magic item, which per spell scroll is 15 for a 3rd level spell. It rolls 1d20 + the number given on its wisdom save, which is +9, so it succeeds on a 6+.
Thank you Panta. My monsters have been saving by adding the "Mod" value to the roll -- which isn't much of a factor at lower levels but as we progress it becomes significant.
Thank you Wagna. I'll let you know if I ever find a Spell Attack Bonus that isn't also the Spell Save DC minus 8. <wink, wink>
The Empyrean uses CHA as its spellcasting ability having a Mod of 8 and a Save of 8. Let's say the Empyrean must make a WIS save -- that's (d20+13). But the Empyrean's Spell Attack Bonus would be +8 instead of +13 because Charisma is the spellcasting ability, not Wisdom. Is that an example?
No spells that use attack rolls -- that's another interesting point.
It's not much of a stretch to imagine that an immortal would have acquired an array of interesting magic items -- ones that can be used to store and cast spells. Scrolls have Save DCs that are assigned by spell level, so that is well defined. An Empyrean using a scroll -- I think that is within the rules and might not affect its CR of 23. But now the Empyrean picks up a Staff of Power. Its AC would jump from 22 to 24 and his spell saves and attacks would also receive a 2 point advantage. Are monsters allowed to employ magic items? Do the affects of magic items "stack" if it decides to hold two attuned Staffs of Power?
Thank you wagna.
No class assignment -- that's another interesting point.
Monsters do not have class assignments, so they cannot employ magic items that have class restrictions. Is that your understanding?
The simplest way to look at this is that creatures are not the same as player characters, and they do not follow the same rules. While it is generally good practice to use skills and abilities that players understand, there is nothing wrong with giving a creature a unique stat block to make it more challenging or interesting.
As the Dungeon Master, you can modify a creature's stats to fit the narrative and challenge level of your game. For example, you can:
Give a creature a spell save DC that matches or even exceeds the highest one in the group.
Modify its to-hit bonus.
Grant it a few spells, even those not typically on its list, such as fireball, maddening darkness, or meteor swarm.
This creative freedom extends to all aspects of a creature's abilities, including Legendary Actions, Reactions, bonus actions, and the number of attacks it can make. In higher-level games, your creativity is the only thing that matters when designing an encounter.
Thank you James. You speak truly. A good challenge is good fun and the goal is to keep the players engaged and excited. But I am mindful that this is a game -- and games have rules and if we don't adhere to the rules then we are altering the game.
Technically, MM page 7 states, "You may equip monsters with additional gear however you like, using the equipment chapter of the PHB for inspiration.".
Clearly, the rules do not allow monsters to be equipped with items that are not listed in the PHB. So if I equip a Mummy Lord with a Staff of Power, I am not playing RAW and I likely altered the Mummy Lord's CR too. It seems like a reasonable compromise to allow insignificant magic items to be in the hands of a monster as long as they are class appropriate and attuned. But it does make me wonder why a Mummy Lord would have a Staff of Power in his treasure room and not be tempted to use it -- knowing that he had had hundreds of years to study it. :O
"For inspiration" does not mean "only items in the PHB". It means "use these items as examples". As for equipping a mummy lord with a staff of power: yes, it alters CR.
@Ex825er
I've found there's no real difference between giving a creature an item and giving it new skills, abilities, or spells. The only thing that separates the two is whether you want the players to be able to loot that item after the fight. Of course, you can always have the creature and everything it's carrying turn to dust, but I think that's both a common and bad call as a DM.
When you're designing encounters, it's always best to follow the rules for actions, bonus actions, and reactions. It's also best to create abilities for your monsters that are based on the existing ruleset. This is the hardest part of being a DM—correctly balancing an encounter's difficulty to maximize the players' fun without causing a TPK.
Many of the best encounters ride that edge.
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