i'm looking at a monster stat block where the ability scores have different "Mod" and "Save" values. How does one determine the spellcasting modifier? Let's say the monster's PB=3. The spellcasting modifier s/b 3 + Ability Bonus. Is the Ability Bonus the "Mod" value or the "Save" value? Got to know this in order to calculate the Spell Save DC and the Spell Attack Bonus. Please advise. Thanks.
Thank you Panta. Then would the "Save" ability apply to calculating the Spell Attack Bonus? What then is the purpose of the "Save" property of an Ability score?
It's not documented anywhere in the MM or the DMG, so it must be self evident. I'll move forward with the Ability's "Save" value being the monster's Spell Attack Bonus.
It's not documented anywhere in the MM or the DMG, so it must be self evident. I'll move forward with the Ability's "Save" value being the monster's Spell Attack Bonus.
The "Save" value is used when the monster has to roll a saving throw with that ability. This is documented in the Monster Manual and the Player's Handbook section on ability scores.
The spell attack bonus for any creature is their proficiency bonus plus the modifier (the "mod" thing you're talking about) for their spellcasting ability.
The spell attack bonus for any creature is their proficiency bonus plus the modifier (the "mod" thing you're talking about) for their spellcasting ability.
And in published monsters is always 8 less than save DC (they can be different for PCs because of items that buff one but not the other, but monster stats do not generally include items).
What I have read says that the Spellcasting Modifier = Proficiency Bonus + Ability Bonus – 3+2 = 5
Spell Save DC is calculated as 8 + Spellcasting Modifier (Foes must roll this to save). So typically Foes must roll DC = 8+ 3+2 = 13 to save vs my spell. My “Spell Save”
Spell Attack Bonus is the Spellcasting Modifier (Foe’s AC must be higher than my d20 roll + 5)
Regarding Monsters, the Spell Attack Bonus is stated in the ability score’s “Save” value.
What I have read says that the Spellcasting Modifier = Proficiency Bonus + Ability Bonus – 3+2 = 5
Spell Save DC is calculated as 8 + Spellcasting Modifier (Foes must roll this to save). So typically Foes must roll DC = 8+ 3+2 = 13 to save vs my spell. My “Spell Save”
Spell Attack Bonus is the Spellcasting Modifier (Foe’s AC must be higher than my d20 roll + 5)
Regarding Monsters, the Spell Attack Bonus is stated in the ability score’s “Save” value.
This is all…not quite right.
The spellcasting ability modifier is the modifier for the ability score used for spellcasting. It doesn’t include the proficiency bonus.
The spell attack bonus is the spellcasting modifier plus the proficiency bonus.
The spell save DC is 8 plus the proficiency bonus plus the spellcasting ability modifier.
The “Save” value next to each ability score in the stat block is not any of these things. It’s the modifier added to the monster’s roll when it rolls a saving throw with that ability score. Just like for a player character, it’s the same as the modifier for that ability score, unless they have proficiency in that ability’s saving throws, in which case it also includes the proficiency bonus.
I read the 2024 DMG page 29, under heading "Calculated DCs" that the Ability Modifier and the Proficency Bonus are included in the DC calulation, along with a constant value "8". This is follwed by text stating that "...it can also apply to ability checks", so clearly, the formula used to calc DC can also used for ability checks, meaning that the PB is part of both the spellcasting modifier and the ability check.
I read the 2024 DMG page 29, under heading "Calculated DCs" that the Ability Modifier and the Proficency Bonus are included in the DC calulation, along with a constant value "8". This is follwed by text stating that "...it can also apply to ability checks", so clearly, the formula used to calc DC can also used for ability checks, meaning that the PB is part of both the spellcasting modifier and the ability check.
With respect, you are misusing or misunderstanding most of these words, and this piece of the Dungeon Master's Guide does not say what you think it does.
Let me try to spell it out a little clearer with some examples. Let's say you have a level 1 Cleric whose Wisdom score is 16. Here are what all of these terms mean with examples for this hypothetical character:
Ability Modifier: the number you add to your d20 roll when rolling an ability check that uses a particular ability score.
Spellcasting Ability Modifier: the ability modifier for the ability score the character uses for spellcasting. In the Cleric's case, it's Wisdom, and the modifier is +3.
Spell Attack Bonus: the number you add to your d20 roll when making a spell attack. It's equal to the spellcasting ability modifier plus the proficiency bonus. In the Cleric's case, it's 3+2 = +5.
Spell Save DC: the number that someone else must roll to succeed on a saving throw against a spell you cast. It's equal to 8 plus the proficiency bonus plus the spellcasting ability modifier. In the Cleric's case, it's 8 + 3 + 2 = 13.
Save Modifier: the number you add to your d20 when rolling a saving throw that uses a particular ability score. It's equal to the ability modifier for that ability score, unless you're proficient in that kind of saving throw, in which case it's the ability modifier plus the proficiency bonus. In the Cleric's case, it's 3+2 = +5.
In many cases, the spell attack bonus and the save modifier for the spellcasting ability are going to be the same value, because spellcasters are usually proficient in saving throws with their spellcasting ability. However, they are not always the same value for everyone, both because monster stats don't always follow all the rules of PC stats, and because various spells, class features, and magic items may improve one of these values without improving the other.
The rule you're quoting is telling you how a DM should calculate the DC for a saving throw. The part you've quoted as "it can also apply to ability checks" is actually "it can also apply to ability checks that are contests between two creatures". If you read the rest of that paragraph, you'll see what it actually means. It does not have anything to do with calculating spellcasting modifiers.
I believe that we are getting different interpretations of the rules because the terminology being used in the documentation is not rigorously applied. What you call Ability Modifier is an Ability Bonus. The Spellcasting Ability Modifier should include the PB. The Spell Attack Bonus is equal to the Spellcasting Ability Modifier. The Spell Save DC is the Spellcasting Ability Modifier plus 8. Refer to the MM page 211, Mummy Lord Stat Block, "Spellcasting" Trait. Its Spell Save is 17, and its Spell Attack Bonus is +9. Now look at its Ability Scores. Its WIS "SAVE" is +9. This is its Spell Attack Bonus. Its Spell Save DC = 8 + (PB +5) + WIS "MOD" of 4 which totals 17. So my interpretation is inline with the Mummy Lord as an example.
I believe that we are getting different interpretations of the rules because the terminology being used in the documentation is not rigorously applied. What you call Ability Modifier is an Ability Bonus. The Spellcasting Ability Modifier should include the PB. The Spell Attack Bonus is equal to the Spellcasting Ability Modifier. The Spell Save DC is the Spellcasting Ability Modifier plus 8. Refer to the MM page 211, Mummy Lord Stat Block, "Spellcasting" Trait. Its Spell Save is 17, and its Spell Attack Bonus is +9. Now look at its Ability Scores. Its WIS "SAVE" is +9. This is its Spell Attack Bonus. Its Spell Save DC = 8 + (PB +5) + WIS "MOD" of 4 which totals 17. So my interpretation is inline with the Mummy Lord as an example.
"Ability Bonus" is not an official term used in 5e D&D. The term "ability modifier", as defined here, refers to a value derived from the ability score and does not include the character's proficiency bonus. The term "spellcasting ability modifier" is simply the combination of "spellcasting ability" and "modifier" and also does not include the proficiency bonus; there is nowhere in the rules that says it does. I'm not sure where you're getting that.
You're correct that a Mummy Lord has a spell attack bonus of +9 and a Wisdom save modifier of +9. The fact that these two values happen to be the same is a coincidence. The spell attack modifier is used when the Mummy Lord makes a spell attack. The Wisdom save modifier is used when someone else casts a spell (or some other effect) at the Mummy Lord and it needs to roll a Wisdom saving throw to resist it. These are different values with different purposes, and assuming they will always be the same is a mistake.
You're correct that a Mummy Lord has a spell attack bonus of +9 and a Wisdom save modifier of +9. The fact that these two values happen to be the same is a coincidence.
Well, not really. They're the same because the mummy lord is proficient at both, and thus the roll is ability modifier plus proficiency bonus.
You're correct that a Mummy Lord has a spell attack bonus of +9 and a Wisdom save modifier of +9. The fact that these two values happen to be the same is a coincidence.
Well, not really. They're the same because the mummy lord is proficient at both, and thus the roll is ability modifier plus proficiency bonus.
Okay, but my point — as I said — is that you cannot just assume that these will always be the same value for everyone.
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i'm looking at a monster stat block where the ability scores have different "Mod" and "Save" values. How does one determine the spellcasting modifier? Let's say the monster's PB=3. The spellcasting modifier s/b 3 + Ability Bonus. Is the Ability Bonus the "Mod" value or the "Save" value? Got to know this in order to calculate the Spell Save DC and the Spell Attack Bonus. Please advise. Thanks.
Mod value. Though you can arbitrarily adjust it for particular monsters anyway, monsters don't really have to follow player rules.
Thank you Panta. Then would the "Save" ability apply to calculating the Spell Attack Bonus? What then is the purpose of the "Save" property of an Ability score?
It's not documented anywhere in the MM or the DMG, so it must be self evident. I'll move forward with the Ability's "Save" value being the monster's Spell Attack Bonus.
The "Save" value is used when the monster has to roll a saving throw with that ability. This is documented in the Monster Manual and the Player's Handbook section on ability scores.
The spell attack bonus for any creature is their proficiency bonus plus the modifier (the "mod" thing you're talking about) for their spellcasting ability.
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And in published monsters is always 8 less than save DC (they can be different for PCs because of items that buff one but not the other, but monster stats do not generally include items).
What I have read says that the Spellcasting Modifier = Proficiency Bonus + Ability Bonus – 3+2 = 5
Spell Save DC is calculated as 8 + Spellcasting Modifier (Foes must roll this to save). So typically Foes must roll DC = 8+ 3+2 = 13 to save vs my spell. My “Spell Save”
Spell Attack Bonus is the Spellcasting Modifier (Foe’s AC must be higher than my d20 roll + 5)
Regarding Monsters, the Spell Attack Bonus is stated in the ability score’s “Save” value.
As I read it, the monster does not determine the DC for it's saving throws. The DC is set by the attacker.
This is all…not quite right.
The spellcasting ability modifier is the modifier for the ability score used for spellcasting. It doesn’t include the proficiency bonus.
The spell attack bonus is the spellcasting modifier plus the proficiency bonus.
The spell save DC is 8 plus the proficiency bonus plus the spellcasting ability modifier.
The “Save” value next to each ability score in the stat block is not any of these things. It’s the modifier added to the monster’s roll when it rolls a saving throw with that ability score. Just like for a player character, it’s the same as the modifier for that ability score, unless they have proficiency in that ability’s saving throws, in which case it also includes the proficiency bonus.
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I read the 2024 DMG page 29, under heading "Calculated DCs" that the Ability Modifier and the Proficency Bonus are included in the DC calulation, along with a constant value "8". This is follwed by text stating that "...it can also apply to ability checks", so clearly, the formula used to calc DC can also used for ability checks, meaning that the PB is part of both the spellcasting modifier and the ability check.
With respect, you are misusing or misunderstanding most of these words, and this piece of the Dungeon Master's Guide does not say what you think it does.
Let me try to spell it out a little clearer with some examples. Let's say you have a level 1 Cleric whose Wisdom score is 16. Here are what all of these terms mean with examples for this hypothetical character:
In many cases, the spell attack bonus and the save modifier for the spellcasting ability are going to be the same value, because spellcasters are usually proficient in saving throws with their spellcasting ability. However, they are not always the same value for everyone, both because monster stats don't always follow all the rules of PC stats, and because various spells, class features, and magic items may improve one of these values without improving the other.
The rule you're quoting is telling you how a DM should calculate the DC for a saving throw. The part you've quoted as "it can also apply to ability checks" is actually "it can also apply to ability checks that are contests between two creatures". If you read the rest of that paragraph, you'll see what it actually means. It does not have anything to do with calculating spellcasting modifiers.
pronouns: he/she/they
I believe that we are getting different interpretations of the rules because the terminology being used in the documentation is not rigorously applied. What you call Ability Modifier is an Ability Bonus. The Spellcasting Ability Modifier should include the PB. The Spell Attack Bonus is equal to the Spellcasting Ability Modifier. The Spell Save DC is the Spellcasting Ability Modifier plus 8. Refer to the MM page 211, Mummy Lord Stat Block, "Spellcasting" Trait. Its Spell Save is 17, and its Spell Attack Bonus is +9. Now look at its Ability Scores. Its WIS "SAVE" is +9. This is its Spell Attack Bonus. Its Spell Save DC = 8 + (PB +5) + WIS "MOD" of 4 which totals 17. So my interpretation is inline with the Mummy Lord as an example.
"Ability Bonus" is not an official term used in 5e D&D. The term "ability modifier", as defined here, refers to a value derived from the ability score and does not include the character's proficiency bonus. The term "spellcasting ability modifier" is simply the combination of "spellcasting ability" and "modifier" and also does not include the proficiency bonus; there is nowhere in the rules that says it does. I'm not sure where you're getting that.
You're correct that a Mummy Lord has a spell attack bonus of +9 and a Wisdom save modifier of +9. The fact that these two values happen to be the same is a coincidence. The spell attack modifier is used when the Mummy Lord makes a spell attack. The Wisdom save modifier is used when someone else casts a spell (or some other effect) at the Mummy Lord and it needs to roll a Wisdom saving throw to resist it. These are different values with different purposes, and assuming they will always be the same is a mistake.
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Well, not really. They're the same because the mummy lord is proficient at both, and thus the roll is ability modifier plus proficiency bonus.
Okay, but my point — as I said — is that you cannot just assume that these will always be the same value for everyone.
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