I have a little issue with how the Skill System works in 5e in regards to Master Craftsman.
See, in 3.5 you could pump up a godly amount of skill points into a particular skill, which made sense when you were creating Bob, the capital's most famous smith. However in 5e, all your skills proficiency increase at the same speed - and very slowly on top of that (in fact the difference between a level 1 and a level 20 is... 4 points of proficiency). Furthermore, the bonus is heavily impacted by the stat modifier itself (since the proficiency bonus doesn't go that high).
This is good to avoid massive difference between players when it comes to adventuring, but for specialists it's... kind of eh?
Here is an example. Let's say I have Timmy, Bob's son, decide that he wanted to become an adventurer. Timmy's proficient in Smithing or whatever equivalent tool exists in 5e because of his past. Timmy's a level 1 Fighter with 18 in Strength because he's buff and ready to smash some goblins.
On the other side, I have Bob who's been working the forge his entire life. Let's say for good measures that he's level... 5? That's the equivalent of a regional champion, Bob's a fairly reputed smithy. Now Bob's been working hard at the forge but he doesn't have his son's strength, let's say he's at a very respectable 16 (which is already pretty high for a human, Timmy's just blessed with good genes).
Timmy has +2 (Proficiency) + 4 (Str Mod.) = +6 in Smithing (if I consider that it's a Str-related skill, one could argue but that's beside the point the example would work with any stat). Bob has +3 * 2 (Proficiency + Expertise) + 3 (Str Mod.) = +9 in Smithing.
That's... a mere 3 points difference. If they were to throw dices, Bob would have only 15% chances of a better outcome than Timmy, that dumb ingrate son of his that decided to run into the countryside great sword in hand to slay goblins and throw himself into danger pits, the numbskull.
Overall I oriented this discussion with Crafting in mind, but I could extend that to many other topics. A highly trained circus acrobat vs the halfling rogue who... well, just has high dex and expertise in Acrobatics. A wise old doctor who's fought off multiple plagues vs a young cleric rolling medicine checks. You get my gist.
So. How do you deal with this? Do you just go "eh screw the rules" and decide that good craftsman get godly bonuses in their own craft? (They have EXPERT Expertise) Do you just shrug and say that adventurers, by virtue of their pure awesomeness, are able to compete with poor peons that spent their lives honing their craft? (well they didn't get to get their ass blasted by mindflayers so boohoo screw your hard work)
It's honestly an issue that doesn't really ever come up for my gaming group. D&D (5e in particular) is built to facilitate adventurers adventuring more than it is set up to be a crafting simulator. World renowned blacksmiths don't spend their lives out slaying dragons or running off goblins or even roughing up the occasional cultist. They spend their lives honing their craft and pumping out commissions for money and fame. They are, essentially NPC specialists.
Player access to various mercantile skills sits, presumably, on the "hobbyist" level. They get to make a thing here or there, maybe fix up some broken gear, possibly polish an old relic they found to sell later, etc.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
On the other side, I have Bob who's been working the forge his entire life. Let's say for good measures that he's level... 5? That's the equivalent of a regional champion, Bob's a fairly reputed smithy.
Hold on a minute. NPCs don't have levels. "Class levels" are a concept that only exist as part of the rules for adventurers. Bob isn't an adventurer. Bob can have whatever bonuses you want when making ability checks tied to skills and tools. NPCs have almost no rules when it comes to the numbers in their stat blocks.
Timmy has +2 (Proficiency) + 4 (Str Mod.) = +6 in Smithing (if I consider that it's a Str-related skill, one could argue but that's beside the point the example would work with any stat). Bob has +3 * 2 (Proficiency + Expertise) + 3 (Str Mod.) = +9 in Smithing.
That's... a mere 3 points difference. If they were to throw dices, Bob would have only 15% chances of a better outcome than Timmy, that dumb ingrate son of his that decided to run into the countryside great sword in hand to slay goblins and throw himself into danger pits, the numbskull.
Yup. But in practice, what's the problem? Timmy, by definition, is a capable smith; if he weren't, he wouldn't have proficiency with smith's tools. If you think Timmy is an amateur, then he shouldn't have that proficiency. And the crafting rules say you need to be proficient to craft items, so problem solved.
What's more, crafting doesn't even require ability checks. You just need training, tools , time, and materials. Both Timmy and Bob have those.
But, ok, let's say for whatever reason you want to craft an item of exceptional quality, and as the DM you've decided there's a chance they'll fail to produce something exceptional. Well, you can give Bob whatever bonus you want to smithing-related checks. Any number! You don't have to justify it with any rule.
But let's say you think +9 is about right, and you still want Bob's experience to factor heavily into it. Just require multiple ability checks! You're already in house rule territory by requiring an ability check in the first place, so what's to stop you from adding more? Let's say they're crafting an item that's expensive enough to require multiple workweeks, and you're going to require a DC 10 check every week. Timmy has an 85% chance of making 1 check. Bob's +9 guarantees success. As the number of workweeks goes up, Timmy's chances of making it all the way to the end without a single failure go down. By 5 checks, his success rate is 44%. Bob still has 100% success rate. Even with a +8, Bob would still have a 77% success rate, which is a 33 percentage point difference. Using multiple checks widens the gap between them.
Also remember that the Rogue class hands out "Expertise" or "Double Proficiency Bonus" for certain skills. There's nothing stopping you from letting a master smith get Expertise in Smith's Tools, allowing them double Prof Bonus to all rolls.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
My example already took into account Expertise, which doesn't give that much of a boost.
That being said, someone reminded me that I was stuck with the 3.5 mindset of building NPCs as PCs - whereas the simplest option like InquisitiveCoder mentioned above was just to give them whatever bonus I want by creating them as a monster stat block instead.
I guess the problem is just with the notion of Bounded Accuracy which doesn't really work when trying to simulate high levels of specialisation (as it's often not the core of any adventurer party)
Also don't forget that Bob is an NPC, so he doesn't care if he succeeds, or fails, or if he's balanced. As InquisitiveCoder points out, you can just slot in any old number you want.
Or, you could take a purely narrative approach to it: does your story need Bob to succeed or fail? Guess what happens.
I understand why you want numbers - I am one of the worst for wanting complex mechanics to give me consistent & plausible results - but sometimes you just don't need them.
If you're really wed to the idea of a mechanic;
Figure out what the DCs of quality items are, in each rough class: weapons, household items, armor, etc. - over common, uncommon, rare, etc. quality. Common quality household items are probably DC 0. Legendary quality weapons are probably DC 30, etc.
Figure out the rough "level equivalent" - as NPCs down't have levels - and use that to figure out proficiency bonus.
Figure out if they have Proficiency, or Expertise
Figure out DC modifiers for the level of working facilities.
Figure out the DC modifiers for the quality of materials and/or special materials.
Figure out if it's "all or nothing" kind of roll, or whether you want to have a sort of "skill challenge" setup, where you have to succeed a number of times ( based on the quality of the item ), before you hit 3 failures.
Figure out if you can burn an attempt to correct/remove a failure ( repair the item ).
Figure out a means by which you can map attempts to cost and/or time
That would get you a consistent crafting system - although I'm not convinced the "juice is worth the squeeze" for an NPC.
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Nah you're right, I'm just trying to keep consistency with the rules. But Bob's not a PC, so he doesn't need to follow PC rules - it's that simple I was just stuck in the 3.5 NPC mindset.
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Hey there folks,
I have a little issue with how the Skill System works in 5e in regards to Master Craftsman.
See, in 3.5 you could pump up a godly amount of skill points into a particular skill, which made sense when you were creating Bob, the capital's most famous smith. However in 5e, all your skills proficiency increase at the same speed - and very slowly on top of that (in fact the difference between a level 1 and a level 20 is... 4 points of proficiency). Furthermore, the bonus is heavily impacted by the stat modifier itself (since the proficiency bonus doesn't go that high).
This is good to avoid massive difference between players when it comes to adventuring, but for specialists it's... kind of eh?
Here is an example. Let's say I have Timmy, Bob's son, decide that he wanted to become an adventurer. Timmy's proficient in Smithing or whatever equivalent tool exists in 5e because of his past. Timmy's a level 1 Fighter with 18 in Strength because he's buff and ready to smash some goblins.
On the other side, I have Bob who's been working the forge his entire life. Let's say for good measures that he's level... 5? That's the equivalent of a regional champion, Bob's a fairly reputed smithy. Now Bob's been working hard at the forge but he doesn't have his son's strength, let's say he's at a very respectable 16 (which is already pretty high for a human, Timmy's just blessed with good genes).
Timmy has +2 (Proficiency) + 4 (Str Mod.) = +6 in Smithing (if I consider that it's a Str-related skill, one could argue but that's beside the point the example would work with any stat).
Bob has +3 * 2 (Proficiency + Expertise) + 3 (Str Mod.) = +9 in Smithing.
That's... a mere 3 points difference. If they were to throw dices, Bob would have only 15% chances of a better outcome than Timmy, that dumb ingrate son of his that decided to run into the countryside great sword in hand to slay goblins and throw himself into danger pits, the numbskull.
Overall I oriented this discussion with Crafting in mind, but I could extend that to many other topics. A highly trained circus acrobat vs the halfling rogue who... well, just has high dex and expertise in Acrobatics. A wise old doctor who's fought off multiple plagues vs a young cleric rolling medicine checks. You get my gist.
So. How do you deal with this? Do you just go "eh screw the rules" and decide that good craftsman get godly bonuses in their own craft? (They have EXPERT Expertise) Do you just shrug and say that adventurers, by virtue of their pure awesomeness, are able to compete with poor peons that spent their lives honing their craft? (well they didn't get to get their ass blasted by mindflayers so boohoo screw your hard work)
It's honestly an issue that doesn't really ever come up for my gaming group. D&D (5e in particular) is built to facilitate adventurers adventuring more than it is set up to be a crafting simulator. World renowned blacksmiths don't spend their lives out slaying dragons or running off goblins or even roughing up the occasional cultist. They spend their lives honing their craft and pumping out commissions for money and fame. They are, essentially NPC specialists.
Player access to various mercantile skills sits, presumably, on the "hobbyist" level. They get to make a thing here or there, maybe fix up some broken gear, possibly polish an old relic they found to sell later, etc.
Hold on a minute. NPCs don't have levels. "Class levels" are a concept that only exist as part of the rules for adventurers. Bob isn't an adventurer. Bob can have whatever bonuses you want when making ability checks tied to skills and tools. NPCs have almost no rules when it comes to the numbers in their stat blocks.
Yup. But in practice, what's the problem? Timmy, by definition, is a capable smith; if he weren't, he wouldn't have proficiency with smith's tools. If you think Timmy is an amateur, then he shouldn't have that proficiency. And the crafting rules say you need to be proficient to craft items, so problem solved.
What's more, crafting doesn't even require ability checks. You just need training, tools , time, and materials. Both Timmy and Bob have those.
But, ok, let's say for whatever reason you want to craft an item of exceptional quality, and as the DM you've decided there's a chance they'll fail to produce something exceptional. Well, you can give Bob whatever bonus you want to smithing-related checks. Any number! You don't have to justify it with any rule.
But let's say you think +9 is about right, and you still want Bob's experience to factor heavily into it. Just require multiple ability checks! You're already in house rule territory by requiring an ability check in the first place, so what's to stop you from adding more? Let's say they're crafting an item that's expensive enough to require multiple workweeks, and you're going to require a DC 10 check every week. Timmy has an 85% chance of making 1 check. Bob's +9 guarantees success. As the number of workweeks goes up, Timmy's chances of making it all the way to the end without a single failure go down. By 5 checks, his success rate is 44%. Bob still has 100% success rate. Even with a +8, Bob would still have a 77% success rate, which is a 33 percentage point difference. Using multiple checks widens the gap between them.
Also remember that the Rogue class hands out "Expertise" or "Double Proficiency Bonus" for certain skills. There's nothing stopping you from letting a master smith get Expertise in Smith's Tools, allowing them double Prof Bonus to all rolls.
My example already took into account Expertise, which doesn't give that much of a boost.
That being said, someone reminded me that I was stuck with the 3.5 mindset of building NPCs as PCs - whereas the simplest option like InquisitiveCoder mentioned above was just to give them whatever bonus I want by creating them as a monster stat block instead.
I guess the problem is just with the notion of Bounded Accuracy which doesn't really work when trying to simulate high levels of specialisation (as it's often not the core of any adventurer party)
Also don't forget that Bob is an NPC, so he doesn't care if he succeeds, or fails, or if he's balanced. As InquisitiveCoder points out, you can just slot in any old number you want.
Or, you could take a purely narrative approach to it: does your story need Bob to succeed or fail? Guess what happens.
I understand why you want numbers - I am one of the worst for wanting complex mechanics to give me consistent & plausible results - but sometimes you just don't need them.
If you're really wed to the idea of a mechanic;
That would get you a consistent crafting system - although I'm not convinced the "juice is worth the squeeze" for an NPC.
And a 15% spread is pretty significant.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Nah you're right, I'm just trying to keep consistency with the rules. But Bob's not a PC, so he doesn't need to follow PC rules - it's that simple I was just stuck in the 3.5 NPC mindset.