I encountered this as a player but now I'm thinking about how I want to address it in my own games as a DM.
The DMG expects the typical party to complete 6-8 medium-hard encounters per adventuring day, and the PHB specifies that a character may not benefit from only one long rest per 24 hours. When dungeon crawling if a party follows the typical 2-3 encounter, short rest, 2-3 encounter, short rest, 2-3 encounters long rest they would generally complete this in far less than 16 hours (2 hours short resting, 30 min of actual encounter time, and 3-6 hours exploring/investigating dungeon rooms, seems a reasonable estimate), meaning their choices are:
press on past the point the designers assumed their resources would be exhausted or
spend the majority of their time relatively idle in order to be able to benefit from a long rest again.
This is almost the opposite of the 5 min workday problem, the party has achieved the recommended number of encounters before resting but can't benefit from a rest.
Remember that as a DM, your say goes - so if the rules say they cannot do a long rest but once every 24 hours, and your players say they are knackered and need to have one after 16, then I'd say let them. However, if they are stopping for 8 hours for a long rest ,what is to stop them from stopping for 16 and waiting 8 hours before a long rest? If anything would have caused issues, surely it would have after 8 hours?
I can't see a situation where they can stop for 8 hours but can't stop for 16, unless there's a ticking clock, in which case it should be built with the rest system in mind.
The long rest limitations are in place to stop people from ignoring short rests and just long-resting after every fight, regaining all resources and so on. If the party is spent, has been using their short rests, and isn't abusing the rest system, just let them rest early!
There ar ealso a lot of things that can take a significant amount of time outside of combat and rests. For example the thief trying to pick a locked door might take 30 minutes, checking the bodies for loot (and making sure nothing is hidden) might also take 30 min after a combat, going carefully through the dungeon being wary of traps or hidden treasure etc might mean moving at 10 ft a minute etc. As DM you could also rule that these take 30 second each but using longer times means that the period between each short rest might be a few hours and and "adventuring day" does indeed take a full day..
I encountered this as a player but now I'm thinking about how I want to address it in my own games as a DM.
The DMG expects the typical party to complete 6-8 medium-hard encounters per adventuring day, and the PHB specifies that a character may not benefit from only one long rest per 24 hours. When dungeon crawling if a party follows the typical 2-3 encounter, short rest, 2-3 encounter, short rest, 2-3 encounters long rest they would generally complete this in far less than 16 hours (2 hours short resting, 30 min of actual encounter time, and 3-6 hours exploring/investigating dungeon rooms, seems a reasonable estimate), meaning their choices are:
press on past the point the designers assumed their resources would be exhausted or
spend the majority of their time relatively idle in order to be able to benefit from a long rest again.
This is almost the opposite of the 5 min workday problem, the party has achieved the recommended number of encounters before resting but can't benefit from a rest.
Thoughts?
The 6-8 medium or hard encounters per adventuring day isn't so much a recommendation but an approximation of what drains out a party's ressources to the point of tuckering out. It's a gauge of what they can handle. It'd generally take more easy encounters, or less deadly ones. The level of conservativeness of a given party with it's ressources may also change that perspective. Those that burn through their ressources more rapidly will run out faster than those who hold onto them a little more. The number of short rest taken also has an effect on the adventuring day. But in no way a DM is expected to run any number of encounters per adventuring day. Different setting or environement may better support more or less encounters than others but in the end what matter is to have fun challenge and be engaged, regardless how many encounters we are facing.
6-8 encounters generally assumes that the only thing that really happens in the game is combat. I've never run a game where there were that many encounters per day, not least because almost all encounters that aren't Deadly are such a cake walk that there's not a lot of fun in them.
I encountered this as a player but now I'm thinking about how I want to address it in my own games as a DM.
The DMG expects the typical party to complete 6-8 medium-hard encounters per adventuring day, and the PHB specifies that a character may not benefit from only one long rest per 24 hours. When dungeon crawling if a party follows the typical 2-3 encounter, short rest, 2-3 encounter, short rest, 2-3 encounters long rest they would generally complete this in far less than 16 hours (2 hours short resting, 30 min of actual encounter time, and 3-6 hours exploring/investigating dungeon rooms, seems a reasonable estimate), meaning their choices are:
press on past the point the designers assumed their resources would be exhausted or
spend the majority of their time relatively idle in order to be able to benefit from a long rest again.
This is almost the opposite of the 5 min workday problem, the party has achieved the recommended number of encounters before resting but can't benefit from a rest.
Thoughts?
Encounter balance works on the assumption that there are 6-8 Med.-Hard encounters per adventuring day. Maybe not the expectation. Saying that someone(thing) expects you do accomplish a thing implies that you can fail to accomplish it as well. There is no failure if the 6-8 encounters quota isn't met. You are correct that Encounter Balance also relies on 1 long and 2 short rests per adventuring day.
As the DM, you can rule that the party can have as many of whatever type of rest that they want. You could also rule that they can benifit from 4 long rests per 24 hours of in-game time. Encounter balance, and the guidance given to use it, is not the issue in the 5 min workday. It's DMs and parties that see resting more frequently and allow for the regeneration of resources, while in a hostile territory with no repercussion, that lead to the 5 min workday problem.
Lastly, it's not a problem if you agree with it. If a DM allows this in their game, that's the ruling at the table and how it should stand for that group. Until that group changes it, not anyone else. I don't allow unfettered opportunities to recoup resources inside a dungeon/lair lightly. When my players find a way to regain some measure of relative safety and resource when in harms way, they should feel relieved and hopeful.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
There ar ealso a lot of things that can take a significant amount of time outside of combat and rests. For example the thief trying to pick a locked door might take 30 minutes, checking the bodies for loot (and making sure nothing is hidden) might also take 30 min after a combat, going carefully through the dungeon being wary of traps or hidden treasure etc might mean moving at 10 ft a minute etc. As DM you could also rule that these take 30 second each but using longer times means that the period between each short rest might be a few hours and and "adventuring day" does indeed take a full day..
Quoted for emphasis. Everybody thinks since you're not using your legs to look at things, you can just proceed at your walking speed and zip through a dungeon in no time. People get uncomfortable the first couple of times they have to decide between actually searching a desk, or keeping their ten minute spell duration going into the next fight, but they'll get over it and the game will be better.
The DMG has some rules for this, even. Moving too quickly will penalize your Perception. Etc. People say, "why are the DCs to notice traps so low?" Well, that's to give you a fighting chance under ordinary conditions. If you can freely just waste infinite time thoroughly searching everything in the dungeon then yes, they're pretty easy to detect. You're meant to be choosing carefully your points of interest and moving along so as not to be noticed by wandering monsters.
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I encountered this as a player but now I'm thinking about how I want to address it in my own games as a DM.
The DMG expects the typical party to complete 6-8 medium-hard encounters per adventuring day, and the PHB specifies that a character may not benefit from only one long rest per 24 hours. When dungeon crawling if a party follows the typical 2-3 encounter, short rest, 2-3 encounter, short rest, 2-3 encounters long rest they would generally complete this in far less than 16 hours (2 hours short resting, 30 min of actual encounter time, and 3-6 hours exploring/investigating dungeon rooms, seems a reasonable estimate), meaning their choices are:
This is almost the opposite of the 5 min workday problem, the party has achieved the recommended number of encounters before resting but can't benefit from a rest.
Thoughts?
I think the majority of dungeons published for 5e are intended to be completed in a single day.
Remember that as a DM, your say goes - so if the rules say they cannot do a long rest but once every 24 hours, and your players say they are knackered and need to have one after 16, then I'd say let them. However, if they are stopping for 8 hours for a long rest ,what is to stop them from stopping for 16 and waiting 8 hours before a long rest? If anything would have caused issues, surely it would have after 8 hours?
I can't see a situation where they can stop for 8 hours but can't stop for 16, unless there's a ticking clock, in which case it should be built with the rest system in mind.
The long rest limitations are in place to stop people from ignoring short rests and just long-resting after every fight, regaining all resources and so on. If the party is spent, has been using their short rests, and isn't abusing the rest system, just let them rest early!
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There ar ealso a lot of things that can take a significant amount of time outside of combat and rests. For example the thief trying to pick a locked door might take 30 minutes, checking the bodies for loot (and making sure nothing is hidden) might also take 30 min after a combat, going carefully through the dungeon being wary of traps or hidden treasure etc might mean moving at 10 ft a minute etc. As DM you could also rule that these take 30 second each but using longer times means that the period between each short rest might be a few hours and and "adventuring day" does indeed take a full day..
The 6-8 medium or hard encounters per adventuring day isn't so much a recommendation but an approximation of what drains out a party's ressources to the point of tuckering out. It's a gauge of what they can handle. It'd generally take more easy encounters, or less deadly ones. The level of conservativeness of a given party with it's ressources may also change that perspective. Those that burn through their ressources more rapidly will run out faster than those who hold onto them a little more. The number of short rest taken also has an effect on the adventuring day. But in no way a DM is expected to run any number of encounters per adventuring day. Different setting or environement may better support more or less encounters than others but in the end what matter is to have fun challenge and be engaged, regardless how many encounters we are facing.
6-8 encounters generally assumes that the only thing that really happens in the game is combat. I've never run a game where there were that many encounters per day, not least because almost all encounters that aren't Deadly are such a cake walk that there's not a lot of fun in them.
3-4 Deadly encounters in a day is a lot more fun.
Encounter balance works on the assumption that there are 6-8 Med.-Hard encounters per adventuring day. Maybe not the expectation. Saying that someone(thing) expects you do accomplish a thing implies that you can fail to accomplish it as well. There is no failure if the 6-8 encounters quota isn't met. You are correct that Encounter Balance also relies on 1 long and 2 short rests per adventuring day.
As the DM, you can rule that the party can have as many of whatever type of rest that they want. You could also rule that they can benifit from 4 long rests per 24 hours of in-game time. Encounter balance, and the guidance given to use it, is not the issue in the 5 min workday. It's DMs and parties that see resting more frequently and allow for the regeneration of resources, while in a hostile territory with no repercussion, that lead to the 5 min workday problem.
Lastly, it's not a problem if you agree with it. If a DM allows this in their game, that's the ruling at the table and how it should stand for that group. Until that group changes it, not anyone else. I don't allow unfettered opportunities to recoup resources inside a dungeon/lair lightly. When my players find a way to regain some measure of relative safety and resource when in harms way, they should feel relieved and hopeful.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Quoted for emphasis. Everybody thinks since you're not using your legs to look at things, you can just proceed at your walking speed and zip through a dungeon in no time. People get uncomfortable the first couple of times they have to decide between actually searching a desk, or keeping their ten minute spell duration going into the next fight, but they'll get over it and the game will be better.
The DMG has some rules for this, even. Moving too quickly will penalize your Perception. Etc. People say, "why are the DCs to notice traps so low?" Well, that's to give you a fighting chance under ordinary conditions. If you can freely just waste infinite time thoroughly searching everything in the dungeon then yes, they're pretty easy to detect. You're meant to be choosing carefully your points of interest and moving along so as not to be noticed by wandering monsters.