it was an item granted to another player through a deal with an entity that is essentially one step below a god of the universe.
In my world, I've got these entities called gate keepers, they basically protect and guide people between planes naturally. Though the races of the world have created spells and portals to circumvent these entities... many of them don't realize that the gods they believe they are communicating with are actually these gate keeps. The gods rarely toy with the affiars of the plains, so the gate keepers have been in their place.
One of my players recently gave up 1 of her levels to bring back a fallen ally and met one of these gate keepers. In return the gate keeper and herself have formed a weird bond. As a result, this gate keeper give her a special item. One of my players who suspects this gate keeper to be out for evil reasons stole this item while the other was sleeping and started to identify it.
I started reading off the items description and would randomly whisper, "stop", "cease", "back off", and "halt" into the description... I then asked the player that they get the sense there is more to the description do they want to continue... That is where we ended the session...
Now my plan is, if they player choose to continue reading, instead of seeing text, they are going to see the true face of this gate keeper and the gate keeper is going to reach out and basically cast Harm on him. A little context, the two players do get along outside of game and I do check to make sure they are okay with each others roleplay, the actually characters do not get along well in game. The one who got the item allowed the roleplay to happen where the other stole the item, but also doesn't really want them to know anything about the item.
So now that you have context... Am I being an dick by basically not letting a spell my player has work the way they intend it to? Also, I chose Harm because it can't physically kill anything so even if I roll well on the damage and the player fails, his character will essentially be punished but back to normal in an hour.
Since you have given them sufficient warning, I think it falls fully on them if there are negative consequences of continuing their actions. That is not you being a jerk--that is merely you carrying through on a threat after they decided to continue regardless. In fact, I would argue you are required to provide some sort of negative consequence--otherwise your credibility as a DM and the gate keepers credibility as powerful entities are going to be called into question.
I would avoid using the "Harm" spell though--at least in name. If you say that the creature is going to "harm" that player, the player will become all but convinced of the gate keeper's malevolence. Same goes with using necrotic damage--necrotic damage does not have to be evil, but lots of players unfairly equate "necrotic=evil" and the damage type alone will be used to cement the character's view on the gate keeper being evil.
Instead of saying you cast "harm", you can cast it on the player without using the name, and you can change the damage type to fit your description. This is the player's own mind recoiling against the sight of the creature, which says psychic damage to me. I would also probably change the save to wisdom. I would then also hit them with a level of short-term or long-term madness, just to really drive the point home. Essentially, you want to just describe the creature, ask for a saving throw, then hit them with the psychic damage and the madness type. Just by way of example, you could say something like:
You continue to delve into the object's properties and reality shatters. All of existence seems to stretch before you, parallels of uncounted worlds layered atop and inside one another in a manner that decries geometry itself. Even as your campsite surrounds you you stand in the uncounted myriad of worlds teetering on the edge of existence in each. Before you or possibly behind you--direction holds know meaning in the non-geometry in which you find yourself--exists a creature who seems to touch all the layers of the world yet none. It is beautiful to behold and your mind drinks of its radiance, even as it recoils in horror from the twisted shape that defies mortal comprehension. The is somehow infinite in scope while remaining only a small fraction of the endless landscapes stretching before you. Whether it turns to you or whether reality turns about it, you cannot tell, but as you stare into its eyes, you feel a profound sense of understanding--as if the secrets of existence itself are suddenly clear.
(Can I get a wisdom saving throw).
Your mind [cannot handle the secrets you discovered/forces itself to forget that which it learned - depending on save] and you open your eyes, never having realized you closed them, and find yourself within your campsite. [take X damage, long/short term madness effect]. The secrets already begin to flow from your mind [impossible to remember/as your very soul sheds the last memories of their existence]. You are left with a feeling of profound loss and gratitude--for having learned something more beautiful than you could imagine, yet too terrible to have survived.
Even if you do not use the above, you want to be sure to describe the creature in a way that makes it seem threatening in terms of power, without giving away whether it is, in fact, good or not. You also want to be careful to describe the knowledge as something shattering the player's mind--not just "you see a big ugly thing that makes you go mad." Many DMs and writers confuse Cosmic Horror (which is what you are working with in this encounter) for "big scary thing that so ugly you go crazy", which is decidedly not what the originators of the genera, like Lovecraft, intended. It is about learning that you are just a small piece of a reality you cannot comprehend, and the madness comes from over-comprehension and the knowledge that you you will never be able to attain that level of understanding again, no matter how hard you seek it.
Its funny you use that description, the actual players already know what he looks like because we don't really do whispers, instead I hold the players accountable for knowing what they know and what their characters know.
But the description you gave is almost very similar to the one the two players were given when they brought there ally back. They have already met two of the gate keepers but are unaware of how many actually exist. I do like your description and very well might use it, or at least modify it to fit my needs.
I am afraid of using psychic damage though, as his damage is specifically necrotic, and even the item allows the player to deal additional necrotic damage. There is a gate keeper for each damage type, and I already have one for psychic damage. I do get where you are coming from and if I tell the player that he is dealt necrotic damage it will just cement his beliefs that the entity is in fact evil. I wonder if I could just leave the damage unnamed instead.
I had not planned on using the actual spell harm, but more so a similar effect where the player suffers damage based off a roll, if they fail the roll the damage lasts for 1 hour before returning to normal. Is really what I was going for.
And yes, my campaign is very Cosmic Horror and I do tend to avoid things as ugly, in fact when I first described this character, he's got a very Harvey Dent played by Aaron Eckhart from batman feeling because let's be honest, that's a sexy man.
Another option you have (which you don't have to use in your campaign, but for a campaign where other DMs might want to have a "secret item" where Harm as a cosmic horror theme might not fit) is to simply have the item be under an effect similar to the Nondetection spell. Although it normally has a duration of 8 hours, you could say that its creator or a powerful entity might make it more permanent or even an intrinsic property of the item. Identify is a divination spell, and is thwarted by Nondetection.
I don't think you hit the player with major damage, definitely not.
What they are doing is something that is intended for the good of the world/party. It's a totally reasonable action to take - the item has not been properly identified, and the character's suspicion is well grounded.
The item telling the character "stop" is actually the incentive to keep going: an evil, cursed item would be likely to do this; a positive powered item would not. And the item is not going to blast the character, unless it is in fact an Evil aligned item... in which case the character is right to be Identifying it.
If you punish the player for doing something proactive, then you're trying to railroad the story away from the player's actions. It doesn't matter what the owner of the item wants: they do not have a monopoly on storylines, and the proactive character is doing something very reasonable.
If you had written into the item's description: "If a creature casts the identify on this item then they are afflicted as per the harm," then that would be fine, but this would be the case of the DM modifying what they created to exist in the world to force a storyline in a particular direction. The players should be in control of the story's direction.
Starting off, I chose a spell that doesn't do permeant damage and can't kill specifically for this reason. I don't want to cause any long-term effects.
As for the intention of the character, is his action reasonable? Sure. But as I've stated the two characters do not get along well and even though the players get along fine, and I usually check after stressful sessions (because I am running a very cosmic horror campaign). I've talked to both players, the player owning the item, does not want the other character to identify and has taken steps to avoid this, however the other player stole the item from the player while they were sleeping. Which I made both players agree to beforehand, because I tend to not like player against player conflicts.
Edit: as I forgot to clarify something. The item is not the thing preventing the identify from working, it's the entity themself at the player characters request.
As for railroading a story, the gate keeper isn't evil, and he actually has not long-term story. He exists as a gate keeper and the only reason he has formed a bond with this player is because she gave a character level to resurrect another player. So, there's really not anything to be rail roading them with. Honestly his storyline right now is pretty much made up on the spot.
Lastly, this is the start of the description when I gave it to the player a few weeks ago, so yes, I and the player have always planned for the item to not be identified.
If a being is casting a spell through the book then identify would simply reveal that the book has a strong link to that being and their power can reach through it. Though it may not reveal even that because divine magic is not necessarily magic for the purpose of rules. For example the secrets of an eldritch being that drives those mad who look at it, is not a spell or magic but some other supernatural property of the being. A holy symbol is not enchanted or magical but may channel a gods will through it and this book could be no different. It's entirely fair for the books properties to be of the kind determined by a religion check rather than an arcana check and spells like identify.
Starting off, I chose a spell that doesn't do permeant damage and can't kill specifically for this reason. I don't want to cause any long-term effects.
As for the intention of the character, is his action reasonable? Sure. But as I've stated the two characters do not get along well and even though the players get along fine, and I usually check after stressful sessions (because I am running a very cosmic horror campaign). I've talked to both players, the player owning the item, does not want the other character to identify and has taken steps to avoid this, however the other player stole the item from the player while they were sleeping. Which I made both players agree to beforehand, because I tend to not like player against player conflicts.
Edit: as I forgot to clarify something. The item is not the thing preventing the identify from working, it's the entity themself at the player characters request.
As for railroading a story, the gate keeper isn't evil, and he actually has not long-term story. He exists as a gate keeper and the only reason he has formed a bond with this player is because she gave a character level to resurrect another player. So, there's really not anything to be rail roading them with. Honestly his storyline right now is pretty much made up on the spot.
Lastly, this is the start of the description when I gave it to the player a few weeks ago, so yes, I and the player have always planned for the item to not be identified.
It sounds as if you've already made up your mind about this so I'm not sure there's anything to add there.
However, in terms of casting harm on the character, I'd consider what effect this is going to have on gameplay. Essentially the character could suffer negligible hp damage, or drop to 1, but most likely somewhere in between. They will then likely want to take another rest before going on adventuring. So this is going to cause slowdown. They'll also have to try to explain/avoid explaining to the other characters why they're looking so bad.
An alternative might be to put a bestow curse on the target, or some other spell that they can soldier on with.
Am I being an dick by basically not letting a spell my player has work the way they intend it to? Also, I chose Harm because it can't physically kill anything so even if I roll well on the damage and the player fails, his character will essentially be punished but back to normal in an hour.
Yes, my mind was already made up by the actions. As I stated in the OP, I've already read the first half of the to them. The Cosmic Horror if they want to continue going hasn't been done yet.
I did leave out some important context related to the damage and effect. The players are currently safe in town and getting ready for a long rest. This player would essentially take the damage and as long as they didn't run outta town immediately they would be basically healed to full after the long rest they are getting ready to take. the damage and pently are to give the player the sense that they are trying to **** with a god level entity, not as a punishment as essentially, they are going to heal from it almost instantly. I would not perform or do this damage if they were out in the middle of the woods or about to go into a fight.
My players matter to me, and I want them to have fun. They understand that the campaign is a Cosmic Horror campaign and have all agreed to this and have been give examples similar to this. Its not a surprise to them when things like this happen. I am honestly not trying to railroad a story, as I said, this Gate keeper doesn't even have a story yet, I am literally making it up on the fly and trying to build in story as I didnt expect to introduce him so early.
The post was more to clarify and get ideas and find a good line of where to draw this at. Things I should watch out for such an action.
it was an item granted to another player through a deal with an entity that is essentially one step below a god of the universe.
In my world, I've got these entities called gate keepers, they basically protect and guide people between planes naturally. Though the races of the world have created spells and portals to circumvent these entities... many of them don't realize that the gods they believe they are communicating with are actually these gate keeps. The gods rarely toy with the affiars of the plains, so the gate keepers have been in their place.
One of my players recently gave up 1 of her levels to bring back a fallen ally and met one of these gate keepers. In return the gate keeper and herself have formed a weird bond. As a result, this gate keeper give her a special item. One of my players who suspects this gate keeper to be out for evil reasons stole this item while the other was sleeping and started to identify it.
I started reading off the items description and would randomly whisper, "stop", "cease", "back off", and "halt" into the description... I then asked the player that they get the sense there is more to the description do they want to continue... That is where we ended the session...
Now my plan is, if they player choose to continue reading, instead of seeing text, they are going to see the true face of this gate keeper and the gate keeper is going to reach out and basically cast Harm on him. A little context, the two players do get along outside of game and I do check to make sure they are okay with each others roleplay, the actually characters do not get along well in game. The one who got the item allowed the roleplay to happen where the other stole the item, but also doesn't really want them to know anything about the item.
So now that you have context... Am I being an dick by basically not letting a spell my player has work the way they intend it to? Also, I chose Harm because it can't physically kill anything so even if I roll well on the damage and the player fails, his character will essentially be punished but back to normal in an hour.
Since you have given them sufficient warning, I think it falls fully on them if there are negative consequences of continuing their actions. That is not you being a jerk--that is merely you carrying through on a threat after they decided to continue regardless. In fact, I would argue you are required to provide some sort of negative consequence--otherwise your credibility as a DM and the gate keepers credibility as powerful entities are going to be called into question.
I would avoid using the "Harm" spell though--at least in name. If you say that the creature is going to "harm" that player, the player will become all but convinced of the gate keeper's malevolence. Same goes with using necrotic damage--necrotic damage does not have to be evil, but lots of players unfairly equate "necrotic=evil" and the damage type alone will be used to cement the character's view on the gate keeper being evil.
Instead of saying you cast "harm", you can cast it on the player without using the name, and you can change the damage type to fit your description. This is the player's own mind recoiling against the sight of the creature, which says psychic damage to me. I would also probably change the save to wisdom. I would then also hit them with a level of short-term or long-term madness, just to really drive the point home. Essentially, you want to just describe the creature, ask for a saving throw, then hit them with the psychic damage and the madness type. Just by way of example, you could say something like:
You continue to delve into the object's properties and reality shatters. All of existence seems to stretch before you, parallels of uncounted worlds layered atop and inside one another in a manner that decries geometry itself. Even as your campsite surrounds you you stand in the uncounted myriad of worlds teetering on the edge of existence in each. Before you or possibly behind you--direction holds know meaning in the non-geometry in which you find yourself--exists a creature who seems to touch all the layers of the world yet none. It is beautiful to behold and your mind drinks of its radiance, even as it recoils in horror from the twisted shape that defies mortal comprehension. The is somehow infinite in scope while remaining only a small fraction of the endless landscapes stretching before you. Whether it turns to you or whether reality turns about it, you cannot tell, but as you stare into its eyes, you feel a profound sense of understanding--as if the secrets of existence itself are suddenly clear.
(Can I get a wisdom saving throw).
Your mind [cannot handle the secrets you discovered/forces itself to forget that which it learned - depending on save] and you open your eyes, never having realized you closed them, and find yourself within your campsite. [take X damage, long/short term madness effect]. The secrets already begin to flow from your mind [impossible to remember/as your very soul sheds the last memories of their existence]. You are left with a feeling of profound loss and gratitude--for having learned something more beautiful than you could imagine, yet too terrible to have survived.
Even if you do not use the above, you want to be sure to describe the creature in a way that makes it seem threatening in terms of power, without giving away whether it is, in fact, good or not. You also want to be careful to describe the knowledge as something shattering the player's mind--not just "you see a big ugly thing that makes you go mad." Many DMs and writers confuse Cosmic Horror (which is what you are working with in this encounter) for "big scary thing that so ugly you go crazy", which is decidedly not what the originators of the genera, like Lovecraft, intended. It is about learning that you are just a small piece of a reality you cannot comprehend, and the madness comes from over-comprehension and the knowledge that you you will never be able to attain that level of understanding again, no matter how hard you seek it.
Its funny you use that description, the actual players already know what he looks like because we don't really do whispers, instead I hold the players accountable for knowing what they know and what their characters know.
But the description you gave is almost very similar to the one the two players were given when they brought there ally back. They have already met two of the gate keepers but are unaware of how many actually exist. I do like your description and very well might use it, or at least modify it to fit my needs.
I am afraid of using psychic damage though, as his damage is specifically necrotic, and even the item allows the player to deal additional necrotic damage. There is a gate keeper for each damage type, and I already have one for psychic damage. I do get where you are coming from and if I tell the player that he is dealt necrotic damage it will just cement his beliefs that the entity is in fact evil. I wonder if I could just leave the damage unnamed instead.
I had not planned on using the actual spell harm, but more so a similar effect where the player suffers damage based off a roll, if they fail the roll the damage lasts for 1 hour before returning to normal. Is really what I was going for.
And yes, my campaign is very Cosmic Horror and I do tend to avoid things as ugly, in fact when I first described this character, he's got a very Harvey Dent played by Aaron Eckhart from batman feeling because let's be honest, that's a sexy man.
Another option you have (which you don't have to use in your campaign, but for a campaign where other DMs might want to have a "secret item" where Harm as a cosmic horror theme might not fit) is to simply have the item be under an effect similar to the Nondetection spell. Although it normally has a duration of 8 hours, you could say that its creator or a powerful entity might make it more permanent or even an intrinsic property of the item. Identify is a divination spell, and is thwarted by Nondetection.
I don't think you hit the player with major damage, definitely not.
What they are doing is something that is intended for the good of the world/party. It's a totally reasonable action to take - the item has not been properly identified, and the character's suspicion is well grounded.
The item telling the character "stop" is actually the incentive to keep going: an evil, cursed item would be likely to do this; a positive powered item would not. And the item is not going to blast the character, unless it is in fact an Evil aligned item... in which case the character is right to be Identifying it.
If you punish the player for doing something proactive, then you're trying to railroad the story away from the player's actions. It doesn't matter what the owner of the item wants: they do not have a monopoly on storylines, and the proactive character is doing something very reasonable.
If you had written into the item's description: "If a creature casts the identify on this item then they are afflicted as per the harm," then that would be fine, but this would be the case of the DM modifying what they created to exist in the world to force a storyline in a particular direction. The players should be in control of the story's direction.
Starting off, I chose a spell that doesn't do permeant damage and can't kill specifically for this reason. I don't want to cause any long-term effects.
As for the intention of the character, is his action reasonable? Sure. But as I've stated the two characters do not get along well and even though the players get along fine, and I usually check after stressful sessions (because I am running a very cosmic horror campaign). I've talked to both players, the player owning the item, does not want the other character to identify and has taken steps to avoid this, however the other player stole the item from the player while they were sleeping. Which I made both players agree to beforehand, because I tend to not like player against player conflicts.
Edit: as I forgot to clarify something. The item is not the thing preventing the identify from working, it's the entity themself at the player characters request.
As for railroading a story, the gate keeper isn't evil, and he actually has not long-term story. He exists as a gate keeper and the only reason he has formed a bond with this player is because she gave a character level to resurrect another player. So, there's really not anything to be rail roading them with. Honestly his storyline right now is pretty much made up on the spot.
Lastly, this is the start of the description when I gave it to the player a few weeks ago, so yes, I and the player have always planned for the item to not be identified.
If a being is casting a spell through the book then identify would simply reveal that the book has a strong link to that being and their power can reach through it. Though it may not reveal even that because divine magic is not necessarily magic for the purpose of rules. For example the secrets of an eldritch being that drives those mad who look at it, is not a spell or magic but some other supernatural property of the being. A holy symbol is not enchanted or magical but may channel a gods will through it and this book could be no different. It's entirely fair for the books properties to be of the kind determined by a religion check rather than an arcana check and spells like identify.
It sounds as if you've already made up your mind about this so I'm not sure there's anything to add there.
However, in terms of casting harm on the character, I'd consider what effect this is going to have on gameplay. Essentially the character could suffer negligible hp damage, or drop to 1, but most likely somewhere in between. They will then likely want to take another rest before going on adventuring. So this is going to cause slowdown. They'll also have to try to explain/avoid explaining to the other characters why they're looking so bad.
An alternative might be to put a bestow curse on the target, or some other spell that they can soldier on with.
Yes, my mind was already made up by the actions. As I stated in the OP, I've already read the first half of the to them. The Cosmic Horror if they want to continue going hasn't been done yet.
I did leave out some important context related to the damage and effect. The players are currently safe in town and getting ready for a long rest. This player would essentially take the damage and as long as they didn't run outta town immediately they would be basically healed to full after the long rest they are getting ready to take. the damage and pently are to give the player the sense that they are trying to **** with a god level entity, not as a punishment as essentially, they are going to heal from it almost instantly. I would not perform or do this damage if they were out in the middle of the woods or about to go into a fight.
My players matter to me, and I want them to have fun. They understand that the campaign is a Cosmic Horror campaign and have all agreed to this and have been give examples similar to this. Its not a surprise to them when things like this happen. I am honestly not trying to railroad a story, as I said, this Gate keeper doesn't even have a story yet, I am literally making it up on the fly and trying to build in story as I didnt expect to introduce him so early.
The post was more to clarify and get ideas and find a good line of where to draw this at. Things I should watch out for such an action.