While it takes place in Waterdeep Dragon Heist I hope the questions are general enough that people could provide an opinion.
Setup: My upcoming session Trollskull Manor, or Lifted Spirits as the party now calls it, will be raided by six Thugs. The Thugs will sneak into the Manor and attack the players on their respective floors where they are sleeping, but the watch Cat will alert them of the intruders, so the intention is that there will be no Suprise round awarded. This encounter will more likely be deadly. The party comprises four 3rd-level characters at full health and abilities and will engage in three-on-two combat. I'm weighing the option of eight Thugs but concerned that their Pact Tactics ability will wreck the party.
The Gralhund want the party blood for sending both the Inspired Hand and the Watch to their villa. On top of all this, The Gralhund knows the party has the Nimblewright Detector (Thanks to the Inspired Hand visit) and is afraid the party will find the Nimblewright and learn the location of the Stone.
The party has done a great job getting to know the people of Trollskull Alley; they threw a party and invited everyone, plus hired Vincent for a few jobs. With that in mind, I want to have, if things go south for the party, have backup appear to help in their time of trouble. I have Embric and Avi from Steam and Steel and Vincent in mind.
Question:
Does this seem like an unwinnable encounter or something too difficult for a party of their level to win? If not, any suggestions for adjustments?
When it comes to Vincent the disguised Rakshasa, what would it take for him to expose himself to his proper form, or would he keep himself in his human guise?
A1: No surprise and 6v4, or 2EA 3v2, this being Thugs vs PCs, should be a hard fight, somebody might do down, but as you've already planned for a potential interruption, a downed PC would be making saves. If you are going to provide an interrupt, I might suggest coaxing a party member to yell for help, make some noise, hit a gong or some pots and pans.. anything to make it feel like the PCs are the initiation of the rescue. Try to sell the interruption as the party's doing, not a DM rescue. Pushing the encounter to 8v4 (2 x 4v2) will most likely end up with someone making death saves or looking for a priest. As a side note, both of the locations of your potential allies are ~150 ft. away, suggesting that it might take some time for the cavalry to arrive once the alarm has sounded. (Wouldn't want it to look like the rescue team is stacked outside the door waiting for the fight to break out...)
A2: As for your Rakshasa friend, I would think that it would take a mortal enemy, or unholy overlord to get Vincent to drop character. He's practiced being around the people in the city, experienced in changing identities to stay hidden. I would suggest that he would, calculatingly, know not to expose himself, or be allowed to be exposed.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Thanks, Kaavel, for the feedback. I appreciate it. I see your point regarding the Thugs, and I'll keep the encounter to six. Though I did realize one thing I had not taken into account is that the players will not be in their armor. The mages will be able to cast Mage Armor pretty quickly, but the Fighter and Cleric will have some additional difficulties. The cleric is teamed up with the Warlock the Sorcerer is with the Fighter. So there is a balance in terms of classes.
I don't know.
I'm doing this encounter for narrative reasons getting the party involved with the Dragon Heist, which they seem not to be willing to move forward with the story. Mostly the party wants the City Watch or the Inspired Hand to solve all the problems, and they hang back and watch.
If the party is going to be without armor, I would be hesitant to hit them full force. You're going for the *feeling* of lethality without the after effects, and I'm with you that not being in full kit changes things a touch. Maybe drop the encounter one degree of difficulty and have a couple more baddies waiting in the hallway. (Stomping up the stairs and running down the hall to join the fray... you get the idea.) Break this down into smaller increments so that all of the Thugs don't show up at once.
You see fight scenes in movies where one character fights off ten opponents, but only because those ten only attack one or two at a time. I might suggest this approach. It'll allow you to add more iterations to the overall fight to provide the challenge and sense of danger you're looking for.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Yeah, I messed up. The encounter did not start until the end of the session when the sorcerer, the only one awake, heard the noise of the thugs who kicked the watch Cat of the manor. He Mage Armor up-- did take other precautions and opened his bedroom door and faced the Thugs. I cut the game at that point and said we'd be rolling for the initiative at the start of the next session.
I was so caught up in the moment that I forgot to look at my notes and had half the things I needed in place for the encounter, putting the party at a slight advantage for the meeting never happened. So I have two thugs against one sorcerer and the rest of the party asleep-- at least that is where things were left off. I'm pretty sure the sorcerer will cast Shatter, his go-to spell, in the room, which will wake everyone up, but the odds are really against him. Still, I have a week to figure a way out of this hole as a DM so things can initially balance out.
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While it takes place in Waterdeep Dragon Heist I hope the questions are general enough that people could provide an opinion.
Setup:
My upcoming session Trollskull Manor, or Lifted Spirits as the party now calls it, will be raided by six Thugs. The Thugs will sneak into the Manor and attack the players on their respective floors where they are sleeping, but the watch Cat will alert them of the intruders, so the intention is that there will be no Suprise round awarded. This encounter will more likely be deadly. The party comprises four 3rd-level characters at full health and abilities and will engage in three-on-two combat. I'm weighing the option of eight Thugs but concerned that their Pact Tactics ability will wreck the party.
The Gralhund want the party blood for sending both the Inspired Hand and the Watch to their villa. On top of all this, The Gralhund knows the party has the Nimblewright Detector (Thanks to the Inspired Hand visit) and is afraid the party will find the Nimblewright and learn the location of the Stone.
The party has done a great job getting to know the people of Trollskull Alley; they threw a party and invited everyone, plus hired Vincent for a few jobs. With that in mind, I want to have, if things go south for the party, have backup appear to help in their time of trouble. I have Embric and Avi from Steam and Steel and Vincent in mind.
Question:
Does this seem like an unwinnable encounter or something too difficult for a party of their level to win? If not, any suggestions for adjustments?
When it comes to Vincent the disguised Rakshasa, what would it take for him to expose himself to his proper form, or would he keep himself in his human guise?
A1: No surprise and 6v4, or 2EA 3v2, this being Thugs vs PCs, should be a hard fight, somebody might do down, but as you've already planned for a potential interruption, a downed PC would be making saves. If you are going to provide an interrupt, I might suggest coaxing a party member to yell for help, make some noise, hit a gong or some pots and pans.. anything to make it feel like the PCs are the initiation of the rescue. Try to sell the interruption as the party's doing, not a DM rescue. Pushing the encounter to 8v4 (2 x 4v2) will most likely end up with someone making death saves or looking for a priest. As a side note, both of the locations of your potential allies are ~150 ft. away, suggesting that it might take some time for the cavalry to arrive once the alarm has sounded. (Wouldn't want it to look like the rescue team is stacked outside the door waiting for the fight to break out...)
A2: As for your Rakshasa friend, I would think that it would take a mortal enemy, or unholy overlord to get Vincent to drop character. He's practiced being around the people in the city, experienced in changing identities to stay hidden. I would suggest that he would, calculatingly, know not to expose himself, or be allowed to be exposed.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Thanks, Kaavel, for the feedback. I appreciate it. I see your point regarding the Thugs, and I'll keep the encounter to six. Though I did realize one thing I had not taken into account is that the players will not be in their armor. The mages will be able to cast Mage Armor pretty quickly, but the Fighter and Cleric will have some additional difficulties. The cleric is teamed up with the Warlock the Sorcerer is with the Fighter. So there is a balance in terms of classes.
I don't know.
I'm doing this encounter for narrative reasons getting the party involved with the Dragon Heist, which they seem not to be willing to move forward with the story. Mostly the party wants the City Watch or the Inspired Hand to solve all the problems, and they hang back and watch.
If the party is going to be without armor, I would be hesitant to hit them full force. You're going for the *feeling* of lethality without the after effects, and I'm with you that not being in full kit changes things a touch. Maybe drop the encounter one degree of difficulty and have a couple more baddies waiting in the hallway. (Stomping up the stairs and running down the hall to join the fray... you get the idea.) Break this down into smaller increments so that all of the Thugs don't show up at once.
You see fight scenes in movies where one character fights off ten opponents, but only because those ten only attack one or two at a time. I might suggest this approach. It'll allow you to add more iterations to the overall fight to provide the challenge and sense of danger you're looking for.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Yeah, I messed up. The encounter did not start until the end of the session when the sorcerer, the only one awake, heard the noise of the thugs who kicked the watch Cat of the manor. He Mage Armor up-- did take other precautions and opened his bedroom door and faced the Thugs. I cut the game at that point and said we'd be rolling for the initiative at the start of the next session.
I was so caught up in the moment that I forgot to look at my notes and had half the things I needed in place for the encounter, putting the party at a slight advantage for the meeting never happened. So I have two thugs against one sorcerer and the rest of the party asleep-- at least that is where things were left off. I'm pretty sure the sorcerer will cast Shatter, his go-to spell, in the room, which will wake everyone up, but the odds are really against him. Still, I have a week to figure a way out of this hole as a DM so things can initially balance out.