I've tried to look for this subject, but to no avail. Either it isn't often discussed or I'm asking something super simple and just don't get it.
I'm a new DM. I've run a couple of one-shots and am currently running a campaign which is my own design, rather than published adventures. My issue, in short, is that I can't seem to pin down what the characters will want, what grabs their interest, or apparently what to build to pull them in. It's worth mentioning the party are also new to D&D.
During the campaign, an item that meant to be a seed for later stories has instead become the focus. It's mired in difficulty, left over from a time so long ago there are only scattered stories and closely-guarded books about it left. I've done my best to adjust to this change, and I'm figuring out how to make what was meant to be a phenomenal task manageable for local heroes. That said, now the party seems both lost (despite being given options to pursue their obsession) and also afraid of any conflict. Even when a town is in danger, the party just moves on through. I'm finding that I'm constantly making material for the party to explore, accounting for various split choices, and that they'll ignore the three or so hours of material I made and go into territory I've only got basic information on. This would be fine if it's now and then. I know players will surprise their DMs. Now that it's become a regular occurrence, I'm stressing and feel like I can't give my players a good story.
So, to rephrase the opening into a question: How do you make something personal for your party? What methods do you use to tap into the character or player's interest? What do you do when a player or character seems to lose an interest they used to pursue eagerly?
When you had your players create their characters did they have any kind of back story? You can leverage their background stories into your overall plot to help guide them back into the main timeline you envision. Players will always stray but as a DM you will have to adapt to their decisions but also as a DM you can force them into unavoidable situations to help steer them back towards your ultimate goal in your campaign.
Freedom for your players is good but too much freedom sometimes leads to bad storytelling overall. If your players don't have a backstory, then they should come up with one with your help to fit into the awesome world you have created. And if they are good players their decisions in-game should fit with the characters they are role-playing.
I've only run homebrew campaign worlds so I know the struggles. But D&D requires everyone to participate and understand that they are all telling the story together. That is the only way D&D will be fun and enjoyable. Good luck! :)
A routine problem for DMs, myself included. What works for me is to hand out a small index card to each player and upon it ask the party to please write down the following:
1- Character name
2- Character class(es) and Level(s)
3- Passive Wisdom and Intelligence
4- Alignment
See what I did there on that last one? A character's moral alignment isn't simply two capital letters smashed together. It's an essential component of the character. So, in your situation, I would have each character roll a DC 25. High, right? You betcha. As the rolls are made I would take note. Occasionally a player will succeed. A Natural 20 is always a success, but success is relative, and you the DM have ultimate say.
I would use each roll as a staring point whenever a character either ignores my cue or ignores an NPCs direct plea. That initial roll is a question. Would in fact the character care about this situation? What's in it for the character?
The most important step is the next step: That roll . . . that little voice inside their head . . . that question . . . should I do something about this? Yes, you should and here's why. You're adventuring because you're a HERO! You may not always put others above yourself but you are after something. You're Bond. That Bond drives motivation. That Bond pushes you out of your comfort zone. It makes you want to be a HERO!
So, what is it? Are you after Gold? Glory? Power? Access to greater arcane?
You, the character, you feel destiny calling. This is your moment. What you do here will decide your fate. Are you willing to embrace it? Or run away from it? The innocent need your help . . .
The problem appears to be player motivation, and having them "go off the rails" off the story line you've prepared, and into territory that you haven't provided story for, correct?
Player motivation might require sitting down with your group and asking "OK, guys - what kind of stories / adventures do you want to play out"? Maybe you're just not building settings and situations that appeal to the players.
Character motivation isn't hard to do when the players have character backstories, and character goals, detailed. If you don't have these, you should encourage your players to develop these. As I said recently in another thread, a player has no problem with where they want to go next when Orcs have kidnapped their characters sister - but, the DM can't orchestrate that kidnapping if they don't know the sister exists! Likewise, if your player wants to find something, or become something, giving them a clue that leads them closer to their goal will give them motivation.
As far as having players "go off the rails", I'm increasingly of the opinion that the problem is that the DM has rails :p
I would argue that your "three hours or so" of prep time detailing a story-line ( if that is what you're doing - perhaps I'm assuming unjustly here ) would be a lot easier if you plotted out:
The world
The NPCs ( both individual, and factions ) involved, along with their:
Motives
Goals
Limits
Tactics
Plans
Events that are going to happen in the world base on timing or randomness
And then play out the NPCs like the players are running their characters:. For each NPC and/or NPC faction:
Figure out what the NPCs believe about the world based on what "just happened".
Plan out what the NPCs are going to do next.
Figure out if the NPCs will succeed or fail.
Have the PCs do what they're doing to do.
Repeat
This means that you do not need to lay out of plot. You lay out a situation, actors, and goals, then you discover what the plot line ends up being along with your players.
Note that when things get stalled, you can always throw in a new NPC, or event, or clue, to "stir up the ant hill" and get events moving again. Like - you know - having Orcs kidnap one of the player-character's sister ... ;)
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@mypalsupes They do have backgrounds, but they still like to wander. I suppose I'll have to make it literally personal, though I was hoping to not have to dive into the really deep stuff until later. Oh, well.
@AdventureHalz I'm misunderstanding something about the dice roll you're suggesting. So they roll the dice against a high number and then... what? Best guess, if they fail the roll I tell them they've got a nagging voice in their head. In which case, this dice roll is them fighting their instincts? Please tell me if I'm understanding.
@Vedexent Clearly I will have to do a workshop to clear things up and make sure I have everything I need. That said, I was hoping even something as simple as alignment would inform their decisions, but I'm not so sure something that subtle will work unless the players are given extra nudges.
I did flesh out areas, allowing for goals and various shops and NPCs that may develop and focus on their own. However, I didn't make a specific requirement for a specific thing to happen. In this particular instance, there were a few hooks for different distractions along the way, one of which was a nice man saying "I don't want anyone else to die because of these guards", and the party... did not bite at all. This perplexes me. It's not bad for the party to move onto the next city, but I am frustrated at my inability to understand what should be really basic motivations. I thought that was an obvious boost for hero morale, but clearly I have to be more forceful to make these heroes help people.
@Vedexent Clearly I will have to do a workshop to clear things up and make sure I have everything I need. That said, I was hoping even something as simple as alignment would inform their decisions, but I'm not so sure something that subtle will work unless the players are given extra nudges.
I tend to view Alignment as a result, not a motive.
A Player can claim that their character is Lawful Good all they want, even as they are burning down a puppy rescue facility run by orphan nuns.
You as a DM can determine to yourself what their alignment behavior really is, and have creatures that can sense and react to alignment react to that, not what is on the paper.
For me, the motivation for players tends to be consequences & reputation. That's kind of tied to the above idea of "true alignment" except that alignment is supposedly somehow "objectively true" while reputation is based on what other people know or believe.
The party didn't bite at the NPC hinting to them that the guards were oppressing the townspeople? That's OK - but what are the logical consequences of that? How will that - realistically - affect the party reputation? Is there likely eventually to be riot or revolt? Was the party actually hired to help the situation and blew it off, and now their reputation suffers?
In any case, you as a DM cannot have any personal investment in whether or not the party does X or Y ( that's not the same as not caring - it's OK to think to yourself "it would be really cool if they did ...", but you can't be too upset if they don't ).
What you can do is start to build consequences and reputation into situations. Actually have some noble-person hire the PCs to do something, and make their payment/reward contingent on accomplishing certain things. Now they have a stake in the game: they get loot if they succeed. Or - have the actions of the party witnessed, and impact their reputation. They burned down that puppy rescue facility? Their reputation suffers, and people in the game world start treating them differently ( the old woman passing you on the street spits and mutters "Puppy burner" as she shuffles by ... ).
That works surprisingly well. I had a new-ish party get into a bar fight, with the local thieves guild, in a tavern, in the middle of the day, just off the town main square. After they got out of jail, paid off their fines that pretty much cleaned out their funds, and got kicked out of town - they are now more respectful of the law ( or in some cases at least more careful about getting caught ) than they had been.
But try and make the impact of consequences and reputation based on realism. Don't use this as a tool to try and mold the party behavior based on how you would like the party to behave. Ultimately, how they approach the world is their choice, not yours.
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Something else to consider, only because it came up this past week at our Table and the players brought it up themselves: Why are we adventuring together?
The campaign I designed starts in Baldur's Gate. The death of a renowned paladin sets the stage. His funeral starts the campaign. Each character has a different purpose for being near or assisting with funeral arrangements.
> The Wizard is a patriar. His fmaily receives a formal invitation but his parents refuse to attend, so in their place they send their son, the character.
> His friend, the female drow Druid/Rogue is an informant for his family. Normally this would be considered taboo but the Wizard's father Is an accomplished merchant former adventurer tiefling—let someone tell him he should be racist. Not going to happen. The drow is hired by the tavern keep of the Elfson Tavern, frequented by adventurers and travelers. He hires the drow to deliver funeral supplies. No one wants to take the job because everyone is attending the funeral.
> The other Wizard rents a house in the Lower City. He earns a living by selling Alchemist' Fire to the Flaming Fists, among other uses. The deceased paladin was a Fist ally. This wizard is tasked to bring magical funeral supplies, special scented candles to deter insects and such.
> The tabaxi is a pirate, and this is where things get interesting.
Following the events of two short adventurers the tabaxi decides that he doesn't want to stick around. He's fulfilled the presiding priest's requests and now it's time to move on. And he's about to . . . until the PLAYERS and their CHARACTERS have — I kid you not — a full hour of solid roleplaying in character, complete with voices. Through a series of conversations they define the group. Why has fate brought them together. What's in it for everyone—not just the tabaxi. They go round the Table once more and invite everyone to participate, share some history, some skills, whatever the character is comfortable telling.
In all my years as a DM watching that roleplaying really impressed me. No rolls. No confrontation. Just conflict resolution. In the end, the party convinces the tabaxi to stay. And the tabaxi agrees on certain conditions.
My point in all of this is: Party Dynamics. The characters might need to sit down and hammer out what it is they want to accomplish together. It might be temporary, it might be a long-term relationship. The players should invest a little time in the why's and not the dice rolls. Let them vote on a name for the group. Let them give each other in-party tasks. For example, is there a cartographer. Nothing beats a good map maker in the group. You, th DM, can hand that character simple maps. He/She has to translate for the group. Another example, a character is the party's historian. He/She records all major events and combat. Not for XP, to track their reputation.
I cannot stress enough how important it is for the characters to decide why they are adventuring. It's one thing to be dropped into the campaign, it's another to fight alongside each other. Very much like an Army platoon, or a SEAL Team. You have to know each other to fight together.
Frodo may have volunteered to carry the One Ring, but the other eight members of he Fellowship decided to go with him. Why? Consider asking your players to come up with that reason. Let them define it. Let them write it down in secret and hand it to you, or not, let it be publicly known to the Table. Regardless, Party Dynamics is important.
My suggestion here is to run a "session zero" - to introduce the characters to each other, discuss aspect of the game the players want to enjoy (roleplay, fighting, political intrigue, puzzles, combat, etc.) where do they see their characters going in the future...
The creation of this shared experience is, yes, a shared narrative experience. The DM guides the story, but the players are a significant contribution.
Some people may be passive about the experience (they want to "watch" the movie unfold), or inexperienced with roleplaying in general - this is where you as a GM can facilitate the session zero and guide people to help understand that there are no wrong answers. Help bring people out of their shells, and get them to understand that this is their game - to explore their imagination as they see fit.
I take it akin to voting... you get a say in your own democracy - however if you don't vote, you have basically lost your say.
A suggestion made by Sly_Flourish (Mike Shea) is to try a "Fiasco" session with your players to make up the details about a "pre-adventure-adventure". This allows the characters to create meaningful ties to the other characters, and have the players hand in how!
So, to rephrase the opening into a question: How do you make something personal for your party? What methods do you use to tap into the character or player's interest? What do you do when a player or character seems to lose an interest they used to pursue eagerly?
When I create my campaigns/adventures I have a generally overview of things I want to have happen throughout, but I leave pretty much everything vague. The reason for this is that I want to get as much backstory from the characters as I possibly can because I WILL use it throughout. As a DM we could easily say to go and fight the evil villain because he is bad and you are good. Nothing wrong with that, but I like to get (as you put it) personal with the player characters; make them be emotionally invested. So, while I may have had some vague encounter planned I can alter it so that the said villain is now the personal villain to one of the characters. It can still play in the overall plot and gives that character more investment in what is happening. I pretty much agree with a "session zero". I think thats a good way to get everyone on the same page. Additionally, you can hold individual sessions/meetings with players to talk things over, because maybe they don't want all of their backstory revealed to the other players; at least not yet. That could make for some dramatic revelations later.
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It's more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules
Okay, if someone else answered this and I missed it then I apologize. From what I have been able to gather from your post it seems to me that as a DM you are not presenting your material in a way that catches the PCs interest. This may be that they are not interested in your material or you are not providing the players with a good enough motivation to participate in your adventure. Now I am about to catch a whole lot of flack about motivating characters but all of that really is a load. A player will justify all sorts of reasons why their character is willing to go along for the adventure if they as a player are interested. The easiest way to find out what interests and motivates players is to ask them. The trick is how to ask them, because people really do suck at telling you what they like. So, don't ask them what kinds of games they want or any of that, they will give you a bunch of worthless answers. Instead ask them about past games, ask them about what video games they like, get them talking to each other about things like TV shows, video games, past adventures and games they really loved. You then need to actually listen and take notes. Try to stay out of the conversation as much as possible and interject only when it starts to either die out and go wildly off topic. By figuring out what styles of games, movies, books, etc really get them excited you can build your adventures in a way that promises those styles. Now this may lead to other issues such as if it turns out they want to do a bunch of stealth based games or horror themed games or political intrigue style games then you might have to reconsider what game system you are using because certain gaming systems handle certain game styles better. But don't worry about that just yet. For now, just get your players talking outside of the game and listen to what they have to say to each other about what really excites them.
Jason
P.S. Ignore anyone whose advice talks about railroading, rails, etc. etc.
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As for me, I choose to believe that an extinct thunder lizard is running a game of Dungeons & Dragons via Twitter!
Stop thinking this game is an open world sandbox. Think of it more as a story where you let them free while they are accomplishing it, but you have to set a mission first and then let them run with it.
As a comparison, think games that are story driven yet allow open world. Witcher 3 has narrative moments that introduce npcs. The player is a participant not just the 4th wall. You build personas, create relationships and most importantly you must build tension or hooks that sets a goal. You need to do this, you need to create an adventure. It’s not about building a cool world, that is just a tool, and you certainly do not want players creating their own goals and just off randomly to make their own while you are two steps behind accommodating them. No story, no don’t do that.
freedom can be handed out in different areas, such as equipment, place of residence, favourite npcs, who to trust, who to befriend. Tactics to solve problems.
Make it bite. The main plot needs to be unavoidable. Their world changes too much to allow it. The undead have slowly taken over the kingdom and only their region remains. Do they fight or flight. A rival lord wants their keep. A banshees is harassing them at night and they need to stomp out her lair. Someone or something threatens them and their world.
For personal quests, you need to talk to the player and do some detective work. Dig deep and find out if they have any expectations and create ways to make it work, if they don’t then your free to set the mini adventure for them. I highly recommend having the character development as part of the main plot or a short mission since you don’t want the spotlight focus too much on one player.
dont listen to advice that ignores railroading. Pathfinder and dnd 5th edition popularity prove that story driven and role playing are more important to most than grids, math and pure freedom. 4th edition was an epic flop because it catered to things that most players do not want. Create an adventure for them with 5th edition. Use a Mix of railroading narrative yet give them the freedom once they are honing in on the goal. This is what people want, proven by the failure of 4 edition and the new focus of 5th edition.
You wont have any trouble with casual or new players with the story driven approach. If you have any vet players that might like 4e or are champions of the railroading sucks,, you need to talk beforehand and align everyone. Y ou make the final call.
Take the suggestions and alternative approaches that people have, mix, match, experiment, and find out what works for your table, and your players.
That may be a hyper-structured inevitable plot; it may be an open sandbox - no one who doesn't know your game, or your players can tell what will work for your table. I've played in and for groups for whom the most productive and fun approach lay on radically different points on that spectrum.
At the end of the day, if you and your players enjoy what you're doing, enough that you're willing to keep coming back to the table week after week - then you're doing it right, for you.
It'll take some experimentation - it will take some discussion - it will have setbacks and reversals as you dial in on your table's style.
Here - as in most of life - those who would tell you "I know the one true way ( probably because I have XX years experience in my own little sheltered niche and I've mistaken my own parochial experience as being universal truth (tm) ) - ignore all others!" - need to be taken with a serious grain of salt.
Don't trust any of us; but take all our ideas and viewpoints, and make up your own mind what works for you.
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Don't trust any of us; but take all our ideas and viewpoints, and make up your own mind what works for you.
Good luck.
I just wanted to echo this sentiment. There really isn't a right or wrong answer here. I like getting input from other DMs because it allows alternative viewpoints that I may not have considered, but in the end I make the decision that works best for me and my players.Ultimately the answer for you is the same; do whatever works best for you and your group of players.
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It's more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules
Pathfinder and 5e are strategically popular because they focus on RP and story. You can make the game with any rules and approach you want but there are pros and cons to it.
Currently, there are a lot more pros to a story driven narative with room for the DM to change what he wished with the rule set. They are very open to this new approach because 4e made it perfectly clear that pleasing a small niche of style that focuses on rules, grids, etc rather than story and RP was an EPIC FAILURE. I mean they were going out of business people and pathfinder was cleaning house until they switched their approach to the game. That switch was RP and story. Pleae don't argue that. it's what is happening in the whole industry.
Of course out of a thousand casual or new players to DND their will be ten that prefer a playstyle that isn't trending....just be aware of that, it's a unique situation and look even further, are you going in that direction because of yourself or a better experience for the players? Look for yourself what is popular with you tube channels hosting DND sessions, what the rule book is focusing on and how wotc is promoting that current edition. You'll soon realise what really is the new way of this game and it's DM make an adventure with story and use the rule set as help. Plus, promote RP with the players. This is the direction that is happening...it's not my opionion. Look meta instead of micro. Look globally not locally. You'll see that it's unanimous on twitch and on you tube. The rules themselves are moving this way at a pace that to be honest that isn't even questioned anymore. Are you questioning it? Look around a bit then at what most people are doing and the companies involved and you can still decide to play your way if it's not the trend. I beg to ask you, why is the tredn happening? it's because it's what most of the community wants. Not a random DM, not wotc. The mass public is changing this, this is the kind of game they want right now. that most likelyincludes your friends. No, you're sure? ok then your an exception that happens or the old vanguard holding on to their ways. Go ahead play that way, have great fun. Just be aware your one small game out of hundreds that are going in a different approach.
What you are arguing here is that we should accept the aggregate average statistical norm as the solution for every specific situation.
By this logic, all pants made, everywhere, should have the same waist size, same leg length, and that we should "align everyone [ as ] you [ the fashion designer ] make the final call". I can only assume that this involves some sort of "fashion corrective surgery".
Thinking macro gets you marketing directions - nothing more. As a game designer, mass media producer, or manufacturer, you want to capture the largest audience for the least investment of time, money, and effort. Playing to the largest demographic makes the most sense in that case. It does not mean that the demographic you're playing to is the only one in existence. It does not mean that a small randomly selected group necessarily matches that demographic - although it absolutely can match that demographic. It does not even necessarily mean that the largest demographic group is greater than 50% of the general population.
To extend the fashion metaphor - if the aggregate average was the best solution in all cases, custom tailoring would have died out somewhere in the mid-20th century: Levis ( presumably 36w/32L jeans specifically ) would have out competed them; High-end custom furniture would not exist - IKEA would have out competed it; the cheetah would not be an endangered species due to its limited and stunted gene pool - it would be perfectly adapted ,with all its individuals having genetic make up very close to the statistical average.
I do concede that your position about setting up a highly structured story-line is not a bad starting point for a new DM or a new role-playing group - in the same way that young adults starting out on their own for the first time might outfit their new apartment almost exclusively from IKEA ( or Target, or whatever ). I do not know many mature adults who have home decor that is exclusively dictated by IKEA - although I'm sure some exist. I also know many mature adults that still have some IKEA furniture.
I do not concede that setting up a highly structured story-line is the final "end all and be all" for all groups - although it will work for many.
I do "look around a bit". I monitor, and think about, my player reactions and involvement, I occasionally ask them about aspects of the game ( although I don't like to overdo that ), and I'm aware of how I feel about our game. That is as far as my responsibility, and my right to control extends. And given what I see, I adapt the game to match the group. Some groups I've been in, that has involved more "average" structure; for some that has involved more sandbox. In both cases, telling them "shut up and accept this style that doesn't suit you, because it's the current fashion" would not have worked.
Fitting the game to the people, not forcing the people to fit the game - is one of the key differences between playing a tabletop game, and a video game. Ironically, the OP title is "Making it Personal" ( for purposes of player engagement ), not "Making it statistically conformist".
What matters, at the end of the day, is the fit between the DM, the Players, and the Game - not the fit of the Game to some statistical average, or general trend; and not the fit of the game to some "progressive" RPG philosophy, either. If the best fit for that table happens to align with the statistical average, then that's fine - that's the best solution for them; I have no issues with that. I do have issues with anyone trying to force their pattern on a situation and a table they know next to nothing about.
There is a world of difference between saying "this is the starting point that works for most people, you might start here, and see how your style evolves ( if at all ) to meet what works best for you as a group", and "this is the aggregate trend you need to conform to, you need to 'align everyone' to match that pattern, and 'dont listen to advice' that presents an alternative viewpoint".
Post script - your entry was edited since I started writing my reply - you added an additional paragraph, I think.
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Alright, I'm going to go ahead and take all that's here and figure out some plan of action. There's plenty here for me to grab, work with, and adjust. I'm sure I'll figure out more regular methods as I go on, but the different views presented are definitely a help. Thank you everyone for your comments, and if you feel something important to this plight wasn't said, feel free to continue commenting.
Drathur and Vedexent, it seems you've splintered into a different conversation. If you feel the vs topic has something to be explored, I'd appreciate a separate thread about it. :) Even send me the link!
Drathur and Vedexent, it seems you've splintered into a different conversation. If you feel the vs topic has something to be explored, I'd appreciate a separate thread about it. :) Even send me the link!
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
To backpack onto what drathur said in an earlier comment about the state of Tabletop RPGs, I concur, 4E was an epic failure. The rules system was synthetic and flavorless. So when the creative minds behind 5E got together to salvage The Lord of the Rings at the Kitchen or Living Room table into this edition I was glad to see a RETURN to roleplaying and character design.
The OP is a great question, and in my opinion worth discussing. I spend so much time, at least 20 hours a week designing adventures, creating memorable villains and NPCs, sometimes even magic items, to give the players a fun story worth returning to week after week.
If all we did was roll dice we'd be no better than Agent Smith, doomed to act out his half life role. Instead, we get to day dream and plunge headlong into an adventure filled with all sorts of accidental wonder. We get together to catch up, hang out, escape reality for a few hours, and then adult the next day and the other fives days after.
Have we forgotten how to day dream?
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I've tried to look for this subject, but to no avail. Either it isn't often discussed or I'm asking something super simple and just don't get it.
I'm a new DM. I've run a couple of one-shots and am currently running a campaign which is my own design, rather than published adventures. My issue, in short, is that I can't seem to pin down what the characters will want, what grabs their interest, or apparently what to build to pull them in. It's worth mentioning the party are also new to D&D.
During the campaign, an item that meant to be a seed for later stories has instead become the focus. It's mired in difficulty, left over from a time so long ago there are only scattered stories and closely-guarded books about it left. I've done my best to adjust to this change, and I'm figuring out how to make what was meant to be a phenomenal task manageable for local heroes. That said, now the party seems both lost (despite being given options to pursue their obsession) and also afraid of any conflict. Even when a town is in danger, the party just moves on through. I'm finding that I'm constantly making material for the party to explore, accounting for various split choices, and that they'll ignore the three or so hours of material I made and go into territory I've only got basic information on. This would be fine if it's now and then. I know players will surprise their DMs. Now that it's become a regular occurrence, I'm stressing and feel like I can't give my players a good story.
So, to rephrase the opening into a question: How do you make something personal for your party? What methods do you use to tap into the character or player's interest? What do you do when a player or character seems to lose an interest they used to pursue eagerly?
When you had your players create their characters did they have any kind of back story? You can leverage their background stories into your overall plot to help guide them back into the main timeline you envision. Players will always stray but as a DM you will have to adapt to their decisions but also as a DM you can force them into unavoidable situations to help steer them back towards your ultimate goal in your campaign.
Freedom for your players is good but too much freedom sometimes leads to bad storytelling overall. If your players don't have a backstory, then they should come up with one with your help to fit into the awesome world you have created. And if they are good players their decisions in-game should fit with the characters they are role-playing.
I've only run homebrew campaign worlds so I know the struggles. But D&D requires everyone to participate and understand that they are all telling the story together. That is the only way D&D will be fun and enjoyable. Good luck! :)
"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."
Ahh... the Adventurers Who Would Not Be.
A routine problem for DMs, myself included. What works for me is to hand out a small index card to each player and upon it ask the party to please write down the following:
1- Character name
2- Character class(es) and Level(s)
3- Passive Wisdom and Intelligence
4- Alignment
See what I did there on that last one? A character's moral alignment isn't simply two capital letters smashed together. It's an essential component of the character. So, in your situation, I would have each character roll a DC 25. High, right? You betcha. As the rolls are made I would take note. Occasionally a player will succeed. A Natural 20 is always a success, but success is relative, and you the DM have ultimate say.
I would use each roll as a staring point whenever a character either ignores my cue or ignores an NPCs direct plea. That initial roll is a question. Would in fact the character care about this situation? What's in it for the character?
The most important step is the next step: That roll . . . that little voice inside their head . . . that question . . . should I do something about this? Yes, you should and here's why. You're adventuring because you're a HERO! You may not always put others above yourself but you are after something. You're Bond. That Bond drives motivation. That Bond pushes you out of your comfort zone. It makes you want to be a HERO!
So, what is it? Are you after Gold? Glory? Power? Access to greater arcane?
You, the character, you feel destiny calling. This is your moment. What you do here will decide your fate. Are you willing to embrace it? Or run away from it? The innocent need your help . . .
The problem appears to be player motivation, and having them "go off the rails" off the story line you've prepared, and into territory that you haven't provided story for, correct?
Player motivation might require sitting down with your group and asking "OK, guys - what kind of stories / adventures do you want to play out"? Maybe you're just not building settings and situations that appeal to the players.
Character motivation isn't hard to do when the players have character backstories, and character goals, detailed. If you don't have these, you should encourage your players to develop these. As I said recently in another thread, a player has no problem with where they want to go next when Orcs have kidnapped their characters sister - but, the DM can't orchestrate that kidnapping if they don't know the sister exists! Likewise, if your player wants to find something, or become something, giving them a clue that leads them closer to their goal will give them motivation.
As far as having players "go off the rails", I'm increasingly of the opinion that the problem is that the DM has rails :p
I would argue that your "three hours or so" of prep time detailing a story-line ( if that is what you're doing - perhaps I'm assuming unjustly here ) would be a lot easier if you plotted out:
And then play out the NPCs like the players are running their characters:. For each NPC and/or NPC faction:
This means that you do not need to lay out of plot. You lay out a situation, actors, and goals, then you discover what the plot line ends up being along with your players.
Note that when things get stalled, you can always throw in a new NPC, or event, or clue, to "stir up the ant hill" and get events moving again. Like - you know - having Orcs kidnap one of the player-character's sister ... ;)
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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@mypalsupes They do have backgrounds, but they still like to wander. I suppose I'll have to make it literally personal, though I was hoping to not have to dive into the really deep stuff until later. Oh, well.
@AdventureHalz I'm misunderstanding something about the dice roll you're suggesting. So they roll the dice against a high number and then... what? Best guess, if they fail the roll I tell them they've got a nagging voice in their head. In which case, this dice roll is them fighting their instincts? Please tell me if I'm understanding.
@Vedexent Clearly I will have to do a workshop to clear things up and make sure I have everything I need. That said, I was hoping even something as simple as alignment would inform their decisions, but I'm not so sure something that subtle will work unless the players are given extra nudges.
I did flesh out areas, allowing for goals and various shops and NPCs that may develop and focus on their own. However, I didn't make a specific requirement for a specific thing to happen. In this particular instance, there were a few hooks for different distractions along the way, one of which was a nice man saying "I don't want anyone else to die because of these guards", and the party... did not bite at all. This perplexes me. It's not bad for the party to move onto the next city, but I am frustrated at my inability to understand what should be really basic motivations. I thought that was an obvious boost for hero morale, but clearly I have to be more forceful to make these heroes help people.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Something else to consider, only because it came up this past week at our Table and the players brought it up themselves: Why are we adventuring together?
The campaign I designed starts in Baldur's Gate. The death of a renowned paladin sets the stage. His funeral starts the campaign. Each character has a different purpose for being near or assisting with funeral arrangements.
> The Wizard is a patriar. His fmaily receives a formal invitation but his parents refuse to attend, so in their place they send their son, the character.
> His friend, the female drow Druid/Rogue is an informant for his family. Normally this would be considered taboo but the Wizard's father Is an accomplished merchant former adventurer tiefling—let someone tell him he should be racist. Not going to happen. The drow is hired by the tavern keep of the Elfson Tavern, frequented by adventurers and travelers. He hires the drow to deliver funeral supplies. No one wants to take the job because everyone is attending the funeral.
> The other Wizard rents a house in the Lower City. He earns a living by selling Alchemist' Fire to the Flaming Fists, among other uses. The deceased paladin was a Fist ally. This wizard is tasked to bring magical funeral supplies, special scented candles to deter insects and such.
> The tabaxi is a pirate, and this is where things get interesting.
Following the events of two short adventurers the tabaxi decides that he doesn't want to stick around. He's fulfilled the presiding priest's requests and now it's time to move on. And he's about to . . . until the PLAYERS and their CHARACTERS have — I kid you not — a full hour of solid roleplaying in character, complete with voices. Through a series of conversations they define the group. Why has fate brought them together. What's in it for everyone—not just the tabaxi. They go round the Table once more and invite everyone to participate, share some history, some skills, whatever the character is comfortable telling.
In all my years as a DM watching that roleplaying really impressed me. No rolls. No confrontation. Just conflict resolution. In the end, the party convinces the tabaxi to stay. And the tabaxi agrees on certain conditions.
My point in all of this is: Party Dynamics. The characters might need to sit down and hammer out what it is they want to accomplish together. It might be temporary, it might be a long-term relationship. The players should invest a little time in the why's and not the dice rolls. Let them vote on a name for the group. Let them give each other in-party tasks. For example, is there a cartographer. Nothing beats a good map maker in the group. You, th DM, can hand that character simple maps. He/She has to translate for the group. Another example, a character is the party's historian. He/She records all major events and combat. Not for XP, to track their reputation.
I cannot stress enough how important it is for the characters to decide why they are adventuring. It's one thing to be dropped into the campaign, it's another to fight alongside each other. Very much like an Army platoon, or a SEAL Team. You have to know each other to fight together.
Frodo may have volunteered to carry the One Ring, but the other eight members of he Fellowship decided to go with him. Why? Consider asking your players to come up with that reason. Let them define it. Let them write it down in secret and hand it to you, or not, let it be publicly known to the Table. Regardless, Party Dynamics is important.
Good luck . . . and happy adventuring.
My suggestion here is to run a "session zero" - to introduce the characters to each other, discuss aspect of the game the players want to enjoy (roleplay, fighting, political intrigue, puzzles, combat, etc.) where do they see their characters going in the future...
The creation of this shared experience is, yes, a shared narrative experience. The DM guides the story, but the players are a significant contribution.
Some people may be passive about the experience (they want to "watch" the movie unfold), or inexperienced with roleplaying in general - this is where you as a GM can facilitate the session zero and guide people to help understand that there are no wrong answers. Help bring people out of their shells, and get them to understand that this is their game - to explore their imagination as they see fit.
I take it akin to voting... you get a say in your own democracy - however if you don't vote, you have basically lost your say.
A suggestion made by Sly_Flourish (Mike Shea) is to try a "Fiasco" session with your players to make up the details about a "pre-adventure-adventure". This allows the characters to create meaningful ties to the other characters, and have the players hand in how!
It's more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules
Follow my Campaign!
Ardanian Calendar
Okay, if someone else answered this and I missed it then I apologize. From what I have been able to gather from your post it seems to me that as a DM you are not presenting your material in a way that catches the PCs interest. This may be that they are not interested in your material or you are not providing the players with a good enough motivation to participate in your adventure. Now I am about to catch a whole lot of flack about motivating characters but all of that really is a load. A player will justify all sorts of reasons why their character is willing to go along for the adventure if they as a player are interested. The easiest way to find out what interests and motivates players is to ask them. The trick is how to ask them, because people really do suck at telling you what they like. So, don't ask them what kinds of games they want or any of that, they will give you a bunch of worthless answers. Instead ask them about past games, ask them about what video games they like, get them talking to each other about things like TV shows, video games, past adventures and games they really loved. You then need to actually listen and take notes. Try to stay out of the conversation as much as possible and interject only when it starts to either die out and go wildly off topic. By figuring out what styles of games, movies, books, etc really get them excited you can build your adventures in a way that promises those styles. Now this may lead to other issues such as if it turns out they want to do a bunch of stealth based games or horror themed games or political intrigue style games then you might have to reconsider what game system you are using because certain gaming systems handle certain game styles better. But don't worry about that just yet. For now, just get your players talking outside of the game and listen to what they have to say to each other about what really excites them.
Jason
P.S. Ignore anyone whose advice talks about railroading, rails, etc. etc.
As for me, I choose to believe that an extinct thunder lizard is running a game of Dungeons & Dragons via Twitter!
Stop thinking this game is an open world sandbox. Think of it more as a story where you let them free while they are accomplishing it, but you have to set a mission first and then let them run with it.
As a comparison, think games that are story driven yet allow open world. Witcher 3 has narrative moments that introduce npcs. The player is a participant not just the 4th wall. You build personas, create relationships and most importantly you must build tension or hooks that sets a goal. You need to do this, you need to create an adventure. It’s not about building a cool world, that is just a tool, and you certainly do not want players creating their own goals and just off randomly to make their own while you are two steps behind accommodating them. No story, no don’t do that.
freedom can be handed out in different areas, such as equipment, place of residence, favourite npcs, who to trust, who to befriend. Tactics to solve problems.
Make it bite. The main plot needs to be unavoidable. Their world changes too much to allow it. The undead have slowly taken over the kingdom and only their region remains. Do they fight or flight. A rival lord wants their keep. A banshees is harassing them at night and they need to stomp out her lair. Someone or something threatens them and their world.
For personal quests, you need to talk to the player and do some detective work. Dig deep and find out if they have any expectations and create ways to make it work, if they don’t then your free to set the mini adventure for them. I highly recommend having the character development as part of the main plot or a short mission since you don’t want the spotlight focus too much on one player.
dont listen to advice that ignores railroading. Pathfinder and dnd 5th edition popularity prove that story driven and role playing are more important to most than grids, math and pure freedom. 4th edition was an epic flop because it catered to things that most players do not want. Create an adventure for them with 5th edition. Use a Mix of railroading narrative yet give them the freedom once they are honing in on the goal. This is what people want, proven by the failure of 4 edition and the new focus of 5th edition.
You wont have any trouble with casual or new players with the story driven approach. If you have any vet players that might like 4e or are champions of the railroading sucks,, you need to talk beforehand and align everyone. Y ou make the final call.
Ultimately make up your own mind.
Take the suggestions and alternative approaches that people have, mix, match, experiment, and find out what works for your table, and your players.
That may be a hyper-structured inevitable plot; it may be an open sandbox - no one who doesn't know your game, or your players can tell what will work for your table. I've played in and for groups for whom the most productive and fun approach lay on radically different points on that spectrum.
At the end of the day, if you and your players enjoy what you're doing, enough that you're willing to keep coming back to the table week after week - then you're doing it right, for you.
It'll take some experimentation - it will take some discussion - it will have setbacks and reversals as you dial in on your table's style.
Here - as in most of life - those who would tell you "I know the one true way ( probably because I have XX years experience in my own little sheltered niche and I've mistaken my own parochial experience as being universal truth (tm) ) - ignore all others!" - need to be taken with a serious grain of salt.
Don't trust any of us; but take all our ideas and viewpoints, and make up your own mind what works for you.
Good luck.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
It's more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules
Follow my Campaign!
Ardanian Calendar
Pathfinder and 5e are strategically popular because they focus on RP and story. You can make the game with any rules and approach you want but there are pros and cons to it.
Currently, there are a lot more pros to a story driven narative with room for the DM to change what he wished with the rule set. They are very open to this new approach because 4e made it perfectly clear that pleasing a small niche of style that focuses on rules, grids, etc rather than story and RP was an EPIC FAILURE. I mean they were going out of business people and pathfinder was cleaning house until they switched their approach to the game. That switch was RP and story. Pleae don't argue that. it's what is happening in the whole industry.
Of course out of a thousand casual or new players to DND their will be ten that prefer a playstyle that isn't trending....just be aware of that, it's a unique situation and look even further, are you going in that direction because of yourself or a better experience for the players? Look for yourself what is popular with you tube channels hosting DND sessions, what the rule book is focusing on and how wotc is promoting that current edition. You'll soon realise what really is the new way of this game and it's DM make an adventure with story and use the rule set as help. Plus, promote RP with the players. This is the direction that is happening...it's not my opionion. Look meta instead of micro. Look globally not locally. You'll see that it's unanimous on twitch and on you tube. The rules themselves are moving this way at a pace that to be honest that isn't even questioned anymore. Are you questioning it? Look around a bit then at what most people are doing and the companies involved and you can still decide to play your way if it's not the trend. I beg to ask you, why is the tredn happening? it's because it's what most of the community wants. Not a random DM, not wotc. The mass public is changing this, this is the kind of game they want right now. that most likelyincludes your friends. No, you're sure? ok then your an exception that happens or the old vanguard holding on to their ways. Go ahead play that way, have great fun. Just be aware your one small game out of hundreds that are going in a different approach.
What you are arguing here is that we should accept the aggregate average statistical norm as the solution for every specific situation.
By this logic, all pants made, everywhere, should have the same waist size, same leg length, and that we should "align everyone [ as ] you [ the fashion designer ] make the final call". I can only assume that this involves some sort of "fashion corrective surgery".
Thinking macro gets you marketing directions - nothing more. As a game designer, mass media producer, or manufacturer, you want to capture the largest audience for the least investment of time, money, and effort. Playing to the largest demographic makes the most sense in that case. It does not mean that the demographic you're playing to is the only one in existence. It does not mean that a small randomly selected group necessarily matches that demographic - although it absolutely can match that demographic. It does not even necessarily mean that the largest demographic group is greater than 50% of the general population.
To extend the fashion metaphor - if the aggregate average was the best solution in all cases, custom tailoring would have died out somewhere in the mid-20th century: Levis ( presumably 36w/32L jeans specifically ) would have out competed them; High-end custom furniture would not exist - IKEA would have out competed it; the cheetah would not be an endangered species due to its limited and stunted gene pool - it would be perfectly adapted ,with all its individuals having genetic make up very close to the statistical average.
I do concede that your position about setting up a highly structured story-line is not a bad starting point for a new DM or a new role-playing group - in the same way that young adults starting out on their own for the first time might outfit their new apartment almost exclusively from IKEA ( or Target, or whatever ). I do not know many mature adults who have home decor that is exclusively dictated by IKEA - although I'm sure some exist. I also know many mature adults that still have some IKEA furniture.
I do not concede that setting up a highly structured story-line is the final "end all and be all" for all groups - although it will work for many.
I do "look around a bit". I monitor, and think about, my player reactions and involvement, I occasionally ask them about aspects of the game ( although I don't like to overdo that ), and I'm aware of how I feel about our game. That is as far as my responsibility, and my right to control extends. And given what I see, I adapt the game to match the group. Some groups I've been in, that has involved more "average" structure; for some that has involved more sandbox. In both cases, telling them "shut up and accept this style that doesn't suit you, because it's the current fashion" would not have worked.
Fitting the game to the people, not forcing the people to fit the game - is one of the key differences between playing a tabletop game, and a video game. Ironically, the OP title is "Making it Personal" ( for purposes of player engagement ), not "Making it statistically conformist".
What matters, at the end of the day, is the fit between the DM, the Players, and the Game - not the fit of the Game to some statistical average, or general trend; and not the fit of the game to some "progressive" RPG philosophy, either. If the best fit for that table happens to align with the statistical average, then that's fine - that's the best solution for them; I have no issues with that. I do have issues with anyone trying to force their pattern on a situation and a table they know next to nothing about.
There is a world of difference between saying "this is the starting point that works for most people, you might start here, and see how your style evolves ( if at all ) to meet what works best for you as a group", and "this is the aggregate trend you need to conform to, you need to 'align everyone' to match that pattern, and 'dont listen to advice' that presents an alternative viewpoint".
Post script - your entry was edited since I started writing my reply - you added an additional paragraph, I think.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Alright, I'm going to go ahead and take all that's here and figure out some plan of action. There's plenty here for me to grab, work with, and adjust. I'm sure I'll figure out more regular methods as I go on, but the different views presented are definitely a help. Thank you everyone for your comments, and if you feel something important to this plight wasn't said, feel free to continue commenting.
Drathur and Vedexent, it seems you've splintered into a different conversation. If you feel the vs topic has something to be explored, I'd appreciate a separate thread about it. :) Even send me the link!
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
no worries, this is a great thread. I have been known to go off course. All opinions.
To backpack onto what drathur said in an earlier comment about the state of Tabletop RPGs, I concur, 4E was an epic failure. The rules system was synthetic and flavorless. So when the creative minds behind 5E got together to salvage The Lord of the Rings at the Kitchen or Living Room table into this edition I was glad to see a RETURN to roleplaying and character design.
The OP is a great question, and in my opinion worth discussing. I spend so much time, at least 20 hours a week designing adventures, creating memorable villains and NPCs, sometimes even magic items, to give the players a fun story worth returning to week after week.
If all we did was roll dice we'd be no better than Agent Smith, doomed to act out his half life role. Instead, we get to day dream and plunge headlong into an adventure filled with all sorts of accidental wonder. We get together to catch up, hang out, escape reality for a few hours, and then adult the next day and the other fives days after.
Have we forgotten how to day dream?