I’m a first time DM and I’m making a very small HomeBrew quest to help both me and my friends learn the ropes. I want to introduce the concept of being quiet, or stealthy when in a potentially dangerous area, so here’s my setup:
Pile of rocks in corner of wide area of a tunnel, with a human arm poking out from it. The tunnel bends around to the left where, about 35-40 feet away are some goblins. If the PCs decide to move the rocks but don’t specify they are being careful or quiet, I want the goblins to possibly hear them and be alerted.
But here’s the thing - how do I know if the goblins hear them? I know Goblins have a passive perception of 9, but what am I comparing that to? I want to make a DC for the goblins to hear the PCs, so there’s a chance they might not hear, but I feel like goblins have pretty good hearing so they have a good chance of hearing. I’m pretty confused about Passive Perception in 5E on the whole.
You can either determine the goblins do or don't hear them, contest the goblin's Passive Perception against the Dexterity (Stealth) check of a character trying to be stealthy or just set a DC based on the difficulty it should be to perceive it and have the goblins do Wisdom (Perception) check..
When you are deciding how any in game interaction plays out you have 3 choices.
1) Automatic success
2) Dice Roll
3) Automatic failure
The circumstances will usually indicate which to use.
Let's look at your scenario. The goblins are 35-40 feet away around a corner in what sounds like a stone tunnel. Stone tends to reflect sounds reasonably well. You want to determine what the two parties notice at the beginning of their interaction. For that, you need to know what they are doing. You have to decide for the NPCs, the players decide for themselves.
- are the goblins quietly watching? Are they talking quietly to each other? Are they making jokes and laughing? Did the guards fall asleep because it is so boring?
1) So the first question is - does the party become aware of the goblins as they approach the corner.
- if the goblins are quiet or asleep - automatic failure - the party doesn't notice them
- if the goblins are talking quietly - maybe a DC20 perception check - either passive perception of 20+ or perhaps ask for a roll and describe to the party that they here whispery noises on a success - rolling for it is optional is you don't want to give it away in which case base success or failure on the passive check.
- if the goblins are joking and laughing - maybe a DC10 or DC15 perception check depending on how much noise they might be making - passive and roll depending on what you want
2) Next - if the party has not noticed the goblins - what do the goblins notice? You can decide that they will notice nothing, that the distance and corner make it unlikely that any of the normal noise from the party will be noticed by creatures with a passive perception of 9.
OR is the party making a lot of noise, talking, wearing heavy armor - they might be noticed even before they move rocks. It would be best to ask the players quite a while before this encounter what they are typically doing when moving through a dungeon, are they trying to be quiet? Are they chatting with each other? Ask them to make stealth rolls for a group stealth check - but do this long before the actual encounter. Asking for a group stealth check can give away that an encounter is about to occur and affect the player decisions. However, you will want the result of that group stealth check to see if the party makes enough noise that the goblins notice them even before they move the rocks.
OR you could decide that sound carries so well that the goblins will be alerted to the presence of the party just by the clanky noises they make.
3) Assuming that neither the goblins nor the party have noticed anything when they approach the rock pile.
- if the party starts dumping the stones to the side without making any efforts to be quiet - then the goblins notice them.
- if the party decides to try to be quiet then have whoever is moving the rocks make a stealth check to see if they move them quietly enough that the goblins don't notice. This would be stealth vs passive perception of the goblins.
Passive Perception in NPCs - Great for determining the DC of a stealth check. With Goblins having 9, that's the DC the players are looking to beat if they try to stealth.
Passive Perception in PCs - I tend to use this when I need to reveal information or clues. If the players are walking through a forest, I'll give the high passive perception PCs some freebie extra info. 'You see flashes of tall green figures darting through the forest parallel to your party.'
Usually, I set out in session zero that Passive skills are the way I determine what information I'm handing to your player characters when they are not actively trying to do something. They are best used when you as a DM can't risk the players failing a roll.
So for Insight, the PCs are talking to a diplomat. Up until they ask if they can apply that skill 'I want to see if I can tell if they are lying' (Insight check looking for body language etc) then their passive score details what they learn from talking to them. A PC with sufficiently high Passive Insight might be told for example that they just catch an odd twitch of the eye and become doubtful of something the NPC says.
It's the same for pretty much all skills that have a passive element. Passive is the DMs tool and really helpful.
Passive Perception in NPCs - Great for determining the DC of a stealth check. With Goblins having 9, that's the DC the players are looking to beat if they try to stealth.
Passive Perception in PCs - I tend to use this when I need to reveal information or clues. If the players are walking through a forest, I'll give the high passive perception PCs some freebie extra info. 'You see flashes of tall green figures darting through the forest parallel to your party.'
Usually, I set out in session zero that Passive skills are the way I determine what information I'm handing to your player characters when they are not actively trying to do something. They are best used when you as a DM can't risk the players failing a roll.
So for Insight, the PCs are talking to a diplomat. Up until they ask if they can apply that skill 'I want to see if I can tell if they are lying' (Insight check looking for body language etc) then their passive score details what they learn from talking to them. A PC with sufficiently high Passive Insight might be told for example that they just catch an odd twitch of the eye and become doubtful of something the NPC says.
It's the same for pretty much all skills that have a passive element. Passive is the DMs tool and really helpful.
Just noticed, you’re in Liverpool - I’m in Maghull. Small world!
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I’m a first time DM and I’m making a very small HomeBrew quest to help both me and my friends learn the ropes. I want to introduce the concept of being quiet, or stealthy when in a potentially dangerous area, so here’s my setup:
Pile of rocks in corner of wide area of a tunnel, with a human arm poking out from it. The tunnel bends around to the left where, about 35-40 feet away are some goblins. If the PCs decide to move the rocks but don’t specify they are being careful or quiet, I want the goblins to possibly hear them and be alerted.
But here’s the thing - how do I know if the goblins hear them? I know Goblins have a passive perception of 9, but what am I comparing that to? I want to make a DC for the goblins to hear the PCs, so there’s a chance they might not hear, but I feel like goblins have pretty good hearing so they have a good chance of hearing. I’m pretty confused about Passive Perception in 5E on the whole.
Cheers for any help or advice.
You can either determine the goblins do or don't hear them, contest the goblin's Passive Perception against the Dexterity (Stealth) check of a character trying to be stealthy or just set a DC based on the difficulty it should be to perceive it and have the goblins do Wisdom (Perception) check..
That makes good sense, and it’s simple. I don’t know why I thought it would be more complex. Thank you.
When you are deciding how any in game interaction plays out you have 3 choices.
1) Automatic success
2) Dice Roll
3) Automatic failure
The circumstances will usually indicate which to use.
Let's look at your scenario. The goblins are 35-40 feet away around a corner in what sounds like a stone tunnel. Stone tends to reflect sounds reasonably well. You want to determine what the two parties notice at the beginning of their interaction. For that, you need to know what they are doing. You have to decide for the NPCs, the players decide for themselves.
- are the goblins quietly watching? Are they talking quietly to each other? Are they making jokes and laughing? Did the guards fall asleep because it is so boring?
1) So the first question is - does the party become aware of the goblins as they approach the corner.
- if the goblins are quiet or asleep - automatic failure - the party doesn't notice them
- if the goblins are talking quietly - maybe a DC20 perception check - either passive perception of 20+ or perhaps ask for a roll and describe to the party that they here whispery noises on a success - rolling for it is optional is you don't want to give it away in which case base success or failure on the passive check.
- if the goblins are joking and laughing - maybe a DC10 or DC15 perception check depending on how much noise they might be making - passive and roll depending on what you want
2) Next - if the party has not noticed the goblins - what do the goblins notice? You can decide that they will notice nothing, that the distance and corner make it unlikely that any of the normal noise from the party will be noticed by creatures with a passive perception of 9.
OR is the party making a lot of noise, talking, wearing heavy armor - they might be noticed even before they move rocks. It would be best to ask the players quite a while before this encounter what they are typically doing when moving through a dungeon, are they trying to be quiet? Are they chatting with each other? Ask them to make stealth rolls for a group stealth check - but do this long before the actual encounter. Asking for a group stealth check can give away that an encounter is about to occur and affect the player decisions. However, you will want the result of that group stealth check to see if the party makes enough noise that the goblins notice them even before they move the rocks.
OR you could decide that sound carries so well that the goblins will be alerted to the presence of the party just by the clanky noises they make.
3) Assuming that neither the goblins nor the party have noticed anything when they approach the rock pile.
- if the party starts dumping the stones to the side without making any efforts to be quiet - then the goblins notice them.
- if the party decides to try to be quiet then have whoever is moving the rocks make a stealth check to see if they move them quietly enough that the goblins don't notice. This would be stealth vs passive perception of the goblins.
Appreciate that comprehensive reply - that’s great thank you.
Passive Perception in NPCs - Great for determining the DC of a stealth check. With Goblins having 9, that's the DC the players are looking to beat if they try to stealth.
Passive Perception in PCs - I tend to use this when I need to reveal information or clues. If the players are walking through a forest, I'll give the high passive perception PCs some freebie extra info. 'You see flashes of tall green figures darting through the forest parallel to your party.'
Usually, I set out in session zero that Passive skills are the way I determine what information I'm handing to your player characters when they are not actively trying to do something. They are best used when you as a DM can't risk the players failing a roll.
So for Insight, the PCs are talking to a diplomat. Up until they ask if they can apply that skill 'I want to see if I can tell if they are lying' (Insight check looking for body language etc) then their passive score details what they learn from talking to them. A PC with sufficiently high Passive Insight might be told for example that they just catch an odd twitch of the eye and become doubtful of something the NPC says.
It's the same for pretty much all skills that have a passive element. Passive is the DMs tool and really helpful.
My free DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
That’s also really useful, thank you!
Just noticed, you’re in Liverpool - I’m in Maghull. Small world!