NOTE: If you are one of my players do not read this post!
I have designed a level 20 multi-boss-battle adventure that takes place in the middle of a magical desert sandstorm. (Extremely Challenging)
The entire map is outdoors, a massive desert temple ruin, surrounded by tall worn stone walls. My idea is that the party will face three bosses, one at a time as they progress further into the temple grounds. There are a couple other weaker creature threats too:
1st Encounter Elder Tempest CR23
2nd Encounter Kraken CR23
3rd Encounter Ancient Blue Dragon CR23 sitting on a nest.
(Again, this is supposed to be Extremely Challenging, so please, I don't need opinions on how tough it is)
I would like to come up with a series of clues the players gain access to as they progress to the end. Additional info:
The sand storm surrounds the temple and is neverending. It also reduces visibility to 60 feet. There is a device of some sort (or maybe a puzzle) in a hole beneath the nest.
The clues offer a solution to turn off the device or solve the puzzle.
I have to come up with something original, because they will almost certainly look it up on google (playing in a VTT)
Before the adventure, the characters are prisoners of slavers, and they are forced to make the attempt. I have all that worked out.
Solving it ends the perpetual sandstorm that surrounds the temple. If they do that AND kill the threats, their characters become a part of the lore of the campaign setting I'm putting together.
So what I need is the series of clues and the final method to end the sandstorm. Anyone got any ideas?
They are not meant to survive the adventure...I'm hoping it will take at least a few attempts by different groups to complete it, as I am only adding one group to the lore. No long rests will happen. The temple has the potential to make certain spells slightly wonky, but they still work...sort of.
Part of the reason I'm doing this is because out of my 25 or so regular players in multiple games, all of them tell me I go too easy on them. So I wanted to make something that is very hard to beat.
I have to say, if your party of players is four pcs or lower in quantity, they will not live past the first encounter. Just saying, if a party of four 20th lvl characters tries to fight the most powerful monster in the first encounter, CR 23, they will die. Add on all the other monsters in-the first encounter, and this turns into a deadly encounter. The only way i see the characters surviving is if they have rapid healing effects, crazy powerful attacks, or a lot of health.
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I have traversed all the outer planes- I have traversed all the inner planes- now I travel to the land of earth to ride an airplane.
-They/Them Pronouns-
If you need lore, spells, heaps of information, come my way!!
So the common theme of the temple is like ocean / sea / storm, so perhaps the desert was once the bottom of the sea floor until [Device] turned it into a desert and creates the purpetual sandstorm. The temple might be dedicated to a god of the storm.
Hints to this backstory can be fossilized shells / sea life in the walls of the temple, statues / reliefs of the god of the storm, paintings or carvings depicting a city beneath the waves and those waves turning into sand and the city dying.
For the [Device] it should obviously be magical and probably an artifact created by an enemy of the sea/storm god. It should be possible to break it just by dealing damage to it, but it should be dangerous to do it that way.
For the hints / puzzle, have most of the enemies be sea/storm themed, but a few are wind/desert themed. These represent the followers of the two gods. Each of the wind/desert themed enemies should wear a piece of a golden key, and only once all are defeated can the players fuse the key together and use it to turn off the desert engine.
I have to say, if your party of players is four pcs or lower in quantity, they will not live past the first encounter. Just saying, if a party of four 20th lvl characters tries to fight the most powerful monster in the first encounter, CR 23, they will die. Add on all the other monsters in-the first encounter, and this turns into a deadly encounter. The only way i see the characters surviving is if they have rapid healing effects, crazy powerful attacks, or a lot of health.
Not looking for opinions, just ideas. But Party size would be 5-6 players, which is common in my VTT 1-2-shot games.
Fighting the most powerful monster at the start means having all their resources available. And yes, some will die. It's meant to be extremely challenging, not a common adventure.
Also, my games have PC magic items based on a point system that allows them to take those items into the adventure. Points are awarded at 1 point per 4 levels, starting at level 1, and the rarity determines the cost of an item. So the characters could each have a legendary item going into the adventure by spending their accumulated points on said item. That will increase their chances of success.
BUT...as mentioned, I'm not looking for advice, I'm looking for puzzle ideas.
I understand that you are just looking for puzzle ideas, but consider when the characters die in the first fight. Then the entire party will be weaker without them, and the players are left out of the rest of game. I guess they could run monsters, but it will weaken the party significantly. For added interest, you could try scaling the encounters so each one is harder than the last. Like, keep the elder tempest, but replace the Kraken with a colossus, and change out the ancient blue dragon with like, a blue greatwrym, or a Tarrasque. That all the advice i have.
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I have traversed all the outer planes- I have traversed all the inner planes- now I travel to the land of earth to ride an airplane.
-They/Them Pronouns-
If you need lore, spells, heaps of information, come my way!!
I understand that you are just looking for puzzle ideas, but consider when the characters die in the first fight. Then the entire party will be weaker without them, and the players are left out of the rest of game. I guess they could run monsters, but it will weaken the party significantly. For added interest, you could try scaling the encounters so each one is harder than the last. Like, keep the elder tempest, but replace the Kraken with a colossus, and change out the ancient blue dragon with like, a blue greatwrym, or a Tarrasque. That all the advice i have.
Here's an idea...make such an adventure yourself and use your suggestions. You have great ideas for making an adventure...unfortunately that is not the point of this thread. Please, read the rules of the forum:
5 • Stay on topic.
Why? This ensures other users can join the conversations they want to have and avoid the ones they don't.
Possible violations include:
Sending messages unrelated to the current discussion.
I think the reason people are giving combat advice and not puzzle advice is because you laid out all of the combat specifics in pretty good detail, but are very obtuse/obfuscating what the puzzle is supposed to be, or what your intended solution is, or even what the point of it is.
The level 20 party are slaves....I can get past that (but I don't like it necessarily, but it's a one shot so who cares). So they are forced to fight these powerful monsters inside a never ending storm (I think). What are they supposed to uncover? Is there any twist or lore in the world? Or are you specifically only looking for how the party should "turn off" the storm?
You mention a series of clues that the players gain access to - what are they supposed to point to? Anything?
If you're truly looking for any advice then I suggest having the monsters also be slaves, and the two sides are unknowingly being pit against each other by whatever entity is capable of holding multiple 20th level characters as slaves.
I have to say, if your party of players is four pcs or lower in quantity, they will not live past the first encounter. Just saying, if a party of four 20th lvl characters tries to fight the most powerful monster in the first encounter, CR 23, they will die.
A CR 23 (50,000 xp, or 12,500 xp per PC) is Medium difficulty by 2024 standards (6,401-13,200 per PC), Hard difficulty by 2014 standards (8,500-12,699 per PC), it is by no means a party killer. An optimized level 20 party could face all three simultaneously and win, even an average level 20 party should be able to beat them in sequential encounters. If there are 6 PCs, I'd be more worried about the encounters being too easy than too hard.
On the puzzle issue.. what is the puzzle supposed to be about? How to stop the sandstorm? What makes it a puzzle? I'm not seeing a theme there.
If the party has time to rest in between fights, this would actually be somewhat easy. Yes, one player may drop to 0 HP, but that's about it. At least, assuming a party of four.
As for puzzles, I would recommend some runes and such, each symbolizing one of the bosses. Each of the bosses would have a small trinket in their general vicinity that, when one is placed in a socket below each proper rune, would do... Something. (Open a door, stop the sandstorm, etc.) The puzzle comes in with actually finding the trinkets, which would be well hidden or protected by traps, and discerning the correct rune. If a trinket is put in a wrong socket, some trap would activate.
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I'm just your everyday dungeon master. Ignore that jar full of souls. And those bones in the corner are just props, don't worry. I'm definitely NOT a lich. Definitely.
Yes, I like beholders. Yes, I curated an exquisite personality for commoner #2864. Yes, my catchphrase is "are you sure?"
I've run and participated in several fights in tier4 and level 20. Characters at that level have a great deal that they can do. Several folks have suggested that it may be too difficult while in my experience, depending on the characters and equipment, the encounters could range from easy to impossible. More likely on the easy side though a bit of a grind with the higher hit points on the Kraken and dragon.
Are you planning on implementing any arbitrary rules restricting what the characters can do or the spells they can cast?
The Elder Tempest has 3 legendary resistances but it is possible to burn through these. Once they are gone ... The Elder Tempest only has a charisma save modifier of +4 ... A level 20 cleric with reasonable gear will have a spell save DC around 21 ... which means on a 16 or less the Elder Tempest can get banished back to the plane of air ... never to be seen again within the time frame of this adventure as long as the cleric maintains concentration on the spell for a minute. That is just one of the simpler options available to such a party.
The legendary saves are pretty much the only defence these creatures have against spells. On the other hand, the characters at that level can have foresight or a 30' paladin aura with several very important benefits including shutting down the dragon fear aura. A Twilight cleric could grant d6+20 temporary hit points to every party member/round along with other benefits.
Blindness, greater invisibility, shadow of moil and other options will give the characters advantage on attacks and the creature disadvantage since it lacks any special sense. None of these creatures have either counterspell or dispel magic.
The Kraken may prove more challenging. However, having experienced fighting a kraken with several support mobs a couple of times in tier 4, it may not be as much of a challenge as first appears. Similarly, the dragon may not be as big a threat as expected though the 481 hit points for both the Kraken and dragon mean that it may take a while to wear them down.
However, this assessment depends to some extent on the skill/knowledge of the players, the equipment allowed and the party composition ... and how much you decide to cheat the die rolls. A DM can always achieve a TPK if that is their goal ... it just isn't that much fun for the players. Are you allowing the players to win if they achieve a victory or will you force "They are not meant to survive the adventure." to be the outcome?
Are you using the 2014 or 2024 rules?
If 2024 - then the Conjure Minor Elementals spell provides a huge boost to damage for characters within 15' of their target ... even the nerfed version. Works great with a warlock with Agonizing blast and the spell sniper feat. Combine that with foresight and the warlock, using an 7th level slot for CME adds 5d8 damage to each bolt from Agonizing blast (disadvantage at melee range is avoided with the spell sniper feat). With advantage from foresight, misses are uncommon giving an average damage/turn of 4 x(d10+5 + 5d8) = 132 damage ... average ... just from one character. Oh ... and the Rod of the Pact Keeper in the 2024 version allows the character to restore any spell slot - not limited to warlock ones. This means that a 3 warlock/17 wizard could restore a 9th level slot. Similar combinations work with a warlock/bard and magical secrets.
Anyway, tier 4 characters have a lot of options so this overall encounter with each creature encountered in order may not prove as challenging as you might expect though that is dependent on a number of factors and if you know the stengths and weaknesses of the party (both players and characters) in advance then you should be in a better position to judge just how challenging they may turn out to be.
Unless my experience of level 20 encounters is very unusual I think you would have to be playing very unoptimized level 20 characters to die to a CR23 creature. I feel that even non multiclassed unoptimized straight level 20 characters without items would be able to beat this. Maybe my experience is different to others but that's certainly what I have found in the past. I am also currently balancing a level 20 encounter and the monster I', creating is way more powerful than a typical cr 30 creature and in the mock fights I have done the players are managing fine.
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NOTE: If you are one of my players do not read this post!
I have designed a level 20 multi-boss-battle adventure that takes place in the middle of a magical desert sandstorm. (Extremely Challenging)
The entire map is outdoors, a massive desert temple ruin, surrounded by tall worn stone walls. My idea is that the party will face three bosses, one at a time as they progress further into the temple grounds. There are a couple other weaker creature threats too:
Elder Tempest CR23
Kraken CR23
Ancient Blue Dragon CR23 sitting on a nest.
(Again, this is supposed to be Extremely Challenging, so please, I don't need opinions on how tough it is)
I would like to come up with a series of clues the players gain access to as they progress to the end. Additional info:
There is a device of some sort (or maybe a puzzle) in a hole beneath the nest.
Solving it ends the perpetual sandstorm that surrounds the temple. If they do that AND kill the threats, their characters become a part of the lore of the campaign setting I'm putting together.
So what I need is the series of clues and the final method to end the sandstorm. Anyone got any ideas?
They are not meant to survive the adventure...I'm hoping it will take at least a few attempts by different groups to complete it, as I am only adding one group to the lore. No long rests will happen. The temple has the potential to make certain spells slightly wonky, but they still work...sort of.
Part of the reason I'm doing this is because out of my 25 or so regular players in multiple games, all of them tell me I go too easy on them. So I wanted to make something that is very hard to beat.
Check us out on Twitch, YouTube and the DISCORD!
I have to say, if your party of players is four pcs or lower in quantity, they will not live past the first encounter. Just saying, if a party of four 20th lvl characters tries to fight the most powerful monster in the first encounter, CR 23, they will die. Add on all the other monsters in-the first encounter, and this turns into a deadly encounter. The only way i see the characters surviving is if they have rapid healing effects, crazy powerful attacks, or a lot of health.
I have traversed all the outer planes- I have traversed all the inner planes- now I travel to the land of earth to ride an airplane.
-They/Them Pronouns-
If you need lore, spells, heaps of information, come my way!!
I think a total CR of 62 in one fight is excessive. Also, why does an ancient dragon need to be enlarged? It's already huge.
So the common theme of the temple is like ocean / sea / storm, so perhaps the desert was once the bottom of the sea floor until [Device] turned it into a desert and creates the purpetual sandstorm. The temple might be dedicated to a god of the storm.
Hints to this backstory can be fossilized shells / sea life in the walls of the temple, statues / reliefs of the god of the storm, paintings or carvings depicting a city beneath the waves and those waves turning into sand and the city dying.
For the [Device] it should obviously be magical and probably an artifact created by an enemy of the sea/storm god. It should be possible to break it just by dealing damage to it, but it should be dangerous to do it that way.
For the hints / puzzle, have most of the enemies be sea/storm themed, but a few are wind/desert themed. These represent the followers of the two gods. Each of the wind/desert themed enemies should wear a piece of a golden key, and only once all are defeated can the players fuse the key together and use it to turn off the desert engine.
I knew someone would make a comment like that. I didn't ask for judgement or opinion. I asked for ideas.
Also, by enlarged I mean in VTT size. Not statistically. I should have been more clear on that.
Check us out on Twitch, YouTube and the DISCORD!
Not looking for opinions, just ideas. But Party size would be 5-6 players, which is common in my VTT 1-2-shot games.
Fighting the most powerful monster at the start means having all their resources available. And yes, some will die. It's meant to be extremely challenging, not a common adventure.
Also, my games have PC magic items based on a point system that allows them to take those items into the adventure. Points are awarded at 1 point per 4 levels, starting at level 1, and the rarity determines the cost of an item. So the characters could each have a legendary item going into the adventure by spending their accumulated points on said item. That will increase their chances of success.
BUT...as mentioned, I'm not looking for advice, I'm looking for puzzle ideas.
Check us out on Twitch, YouTube and the DISCORD!
I understand that you are just looking for puzzle ideas, but consider when the characters die in the first fight. Then the entire party will be weaker without them, and the players are left out of the rest of game. I guess they could run monsters, but it will weaken the party significantly. For added interest, you could try scaling the encounters so each one is harder than the last. Like, keep the elder tempest, but replace the Kraken with a colossus, and change out the ancient blue dragon with like, a blue greatwrym, or a Tarrasque. That all the advice i have.
I have traversed all the outer planes- I have traversed all the inner planes- now I travel to the land of earth to ride an airplane.
-They/Them Pronouns-
If you need lore, spells, heaps of information, come my way!!
Here's an idea...make such an adventure yourself and use your suggestions. You have great ideas for making an adventure...unfortunately that is not the point of this thread. Please, read the rules of the forum:
Since getting puzzle ideas here seems to be impossible, I came up with one of my own that I will use...one that cannot be googled.
Check us out on Twitch, YouTube and the DISCORD!
I think the reason people are giving combat advice and not puzzle advice is because you laid out all of the combat specifics in pretty good detail, but are very obtuse/obfuscating what the puzzle is supposed to be, or what your intended solution is, or even what the point of it is.
The level 20 party are slaves....I can get past that (but I don't like it necessarily, but it's a one shot so who cares). So they are forced to fight these powerful monsters inside a never ending storm (I think). What are they supposed to uncover? Is there any twist or lore in the world? Or are you specifically only looking for how the party should "turn off" the storm?
You mention a series of clues that the players gain access to - what are they supposed to point to? Anything?
If you're truly looking for any advice then I suggest having the monsters also be slaves, and the two sides are unknowingly being pit against each other by whatever entity is capable of holding multiple 20th level characters as slaves.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
A CR 23 (50,000 xp, or 12,500 xp per PC) is Medium difficulty by 2024 standards (6,401-13,200 per PC), Hard difficulty by 2014 standards (8,500-12,699 per PC), it is by no means a party killer. An optimized level 20 party could face all three simultaneously and win, even an average level 20 party should be able to beat them in sequential encounters. If there are 6 PCs, I'd be more worried about the encounters being too easy than too hard.
On the puzzle issue.. what is the puzzle supposed to be about? How to stop the sandstorm? What makes it a puzzle? I'm not seeing a theme there.
If the party has time to rest in between fights, this would actually be somewhat easy. Yes, one player may drop to 0 HP, but that's about it. At least, assuming a party of four.
As for puzzles, I would recommend some runes and such, each symbolizing one of the bosses. Each of the bosses would have a small trinket in their general vicinity that, when one is placed in a socket below each proper rune, would do... Something. (Open a door, stop the sandstorm, etc.) The puzzle comes in with actually finding the trinkets, which would be well hidden or protected by traps, and discerning the correct rune. If a trinket is put in a wrong socket, some trap would activate.
I'm just your everyday dungeon master. Ignore that jar full of souls. And those bones in the corner are just props, don't worry. I'm definitely NOT a lich. Definitely.
Yes, I like beholders. Yes, I curated an exquisite personality for commoner #2864. Yes, my catchphrase is "are you sure?"
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . .-.-.-
god dawm your players are getting totally tpk'd
bring back party wizzard!
click here to sign petition!!!
Interesting opinions.
I've run and participated in several fights in tier4 and level 20. Characters at that level have a great deal that they can do. Several folks have suggested that it may be too difficult while in my experience, depending on the characters and equipment, the encounters could range from easy to impossible. More likely on the easy side though a bit of a grind with the higher hit points on the Kraken and dragon.
Are you planning on implementing any arbitrary rules restricting what the characters can do or the spells they can cast?
The Elder Tempest has 3 legendary resistances but it is possible to burn through these. Once they are gone ... The Elder Tempest only has a charisma save modifier of +4 ... A level 20 cleric with reasonable gear will have a spell save DC around 21 ... which means on a 16 or less the Elder Tempest can get banished back to the plane of air ... never to be seen again within the time frame of this adventure as long as the cleric maintains concentration on the spell for a minute. That is just one of the simpler options available to such a party.
The legendary saves are pretty much the only defence these creatures have against spells. On the other hand, the characters at that level can have foresight or a 30' paladin aura with several very important benefits including shutting down the dragon fear aura. A Twilight cleric could grant d6+20 temporary hit points to every party member/round along with other benefits.
Blindness, greater invisibility, shadow of moil and other options will give the characters advantage on attacks and the creature disadvantage since it lacks any special sense. None of these creatures have either counterspell or dispel magic.
The Kraken may prove more challenging. However, having experienced fighting a kraken with several support mobs a couple of times in tier 4, it may not be as much of a challenge as first appears. Similarly, the dragon may not be as big a threat as expected though the 481 hit points for both the Kraken and dragon mean that it may take a while to wear them down.
However, this assessment depends to some extent on the skill/knowledge of the players, the equipment allowed and the party composition ... and how much you decide to cheat the die rolls. A DM can always achieve a TPK if that is their goal ... it just isn't that much fun for the players. Are you allowing the players to win if they achieve a victory or will you force "They are not meant to survive the adventure." to be the outcome?
Are you using the 2014 or 2024 rules?
If 2024 - then the Conjure Minor Elementals spell provides a huge boost to damage for characters within 15' of their target ... even the nerfed version. Works great with a warlock with Agonizing blast and the spell sniper feat. Combine that with foresight and the warlock, using an 7th level slot for CME adds 5d8 damage to each bolt from Agonizing blast (disadvantage at melee range is avoided with the spell sniper feat). With advantage from foresight, misses are uncommon giving an average damage/turn of 4 x(d10+5 + 5d8) = 132 damage ... average ... just from one character. Oh ... and the Rod of the Pact Keeper in the 2024 version allows the character to restore any spell slot - not limited to warlock ones. This means that a 3 warlock/17 wizard could restore a 9th level slot. Similar combinations work with a warlock/bard and magical secrets.
Anyway, tier 4 characters have a lot of options so this overall encounter with each creature encountered in order may not prove as challenging as you might expect though that is dependent on a number of factors and if you know the stengths and weaknesses of the party (both players and characters) in advance then you should be in a better position to judge just how challenging they may turn out to be.
Unless my experience of level 20 encounters is very unusual I think you would have to be playing very unoptimized level 20 characters to die to a CR23 creature. I feel that even non multiclassed unoptimized straight level 20 characters without items would be able to beat this. Maybe my experience is different to others but that's certainly what I have found in the past. I am also currently balancing a level 20 encounter and the monster I', creating is way more powerful than a typical cr 30 creature and in the mock fights I have done the players are managing fine.