Is this normal? (New DM)

Hi there!

So my players have reached lvl 3, and after a long rest, the first random encounter of their journey was an ogre. They slashed him in two turns, mate. Is this normal? Hahaha

Yeah, that sounds pretty normal. Ogres are only CR2. I'm not sure how many players are in your party, but for a party of four level three characters, a single ogre is an easy encounter.

Quote from Official_FBI >>

Yeah, that sounds pretty normal. Ogres are only CR2. I'm not sure how many players are in your party, but for a party of four level three characters, a single ogre is an easy encounter.

 Yeah, there's four of them. 

Thanks for your words. I was shocked hahaha

Expect it to get worse as level increases. If you're using the encounter building rules, be aware that if you have fewer monsters than you have PCs the difficulty is likely to be lower than the rules claim.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Expect it to get worse as level increases. If you're using the encounter building rules, be aware that if you have fewer monsters than you have PCs the difficulty is likely to be lower than the rules claim.

 Yeah, I'm following the random encounter table of the module, which says characters are supposed to be lvl 3 at that moment. Maybe I'll add more monsters 😂

I really like having a set of smaller minions in an encounter, and I usually prep 1-2 extra ones that can be added to the fight if it seems too easy. Giving the players more choices of targets makes the fight harder without a ton of risk of TPK and also makes it more interesting, because there's tactical choice in targets, positioning, etc, in play.

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Expect it to get worse as level increases. If you're using the encounter building rules, be aware that if you have fewer monsters than you have PCs the difficulty is likely to be lower than the rules claim.

 Yeah, I'm following the random encounter table of the module, which says characters are supposed to be lvl 3 at that moment. Maybe I'll add more monsters 😂

Well, you might also take a page from Order of the Stick for advice on random encounters:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html

Quote from FoolishMortal18588 >>

I really like having a set of smaller minions in an encounter, and I usually prep 1-2 extra ones that can be added to the fight if it seems too easy. Giving the players more choices of targets makes the fight harder without a ton of risk of TPK and also makes it more interesting, because there's tactical choice in targets, positioning, etc, in play.

 That's a good option too. 

I think random encounters are better if there's a "story" behind them. Adding new monsters during the fight is a good thing to do, actually.

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

I think random encounters are better if there's a "story" behind them. Adding new monsters during the fight is a good thing to do, actually.

 I don't really like random encounters, but also do keep in mind that not all encounters need to be deadly or even challenging. I sometimes throw in an easy encounter after a level up (especially early levels) so that the players get a bit of a feeling of their new abilities. Also that sometimes and encounter becomes difficult because there's been 5 encounters that day already. Anyone can breeze through 1 combat a day, but after they have depleted their spell slots and class features, even a moderate encounter becomes more of a challenge.

Quote from Scruvy >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

I think random encounters are better if there's a "story" behind them. Adding new monsters during the fight is a good thing to do, actually.

 I don't really like random encounters, but also do keep in mind that not all encounters need to be deadly or even challenging. I sometimes throw in an easy encounter after a level up (especially early levels) so that the players get a bit of a feeling of their new abilities. Also that sometimes and encounter becomes difficult because there's been 5 encounters that day already. Anyone can breeze through 1 combat a day, but after they have depleted their spell slots and class features, even a moderate encounter becomes more of a challenge.

I really value a mix of easy encounters and hard ones, and maybe I'm odd, but I also like to warm up a new level for a character with encounters that go say 4-5 rounds but aren't deadly - lots of smaller monsters. Choices are how I learn and I'd rather not have my first fight with a character be something that I have to run perfectly or die.

As a DM, my favorite encounter runs 2-3 monster types. Maybe 1-2 at the party level CR, watching out for what can happen on a crit, then fill up the rest of the encounter budget with something thematic but a solid step down to be the bulk of the turns, then maybe a few very tiny monsters that can be one-hit but will require tactics or an action to dispatch, like sprinkles on a cupcake. Maybe they flank, maybe they harry your ranged attackers, etc.

The type of encounter and mix of monsters is orthogonal to whether it's part of the story. It's really straightforward to make them story related, or at least very fitting to the setting, IME.

And I figure most monsters have friends that might wander in and join the fight in round 2, if needed. 

Quote from Scruvy >>

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >>

I think random encounters are better if there's a "story" behind them. Adding new monsters during the fight is a good thing to do, actually.

 I don't really like random encounters, but also do keep in mind that not all encounters need to be deadly or even challenging. I sometimes throw in an easy encounter after a level up (especially early levels) so that the players get a bit of a feeling of their new abilities. Also that sometimes and encounter becomes difficult because there's been 5 encounters that day already. Anyone can breeze through 1 combat a day, but after they have depleted their spell slots and class features, even a moderate encounter becomes more of a challenge.

 Yeah, I mix random encounters with planned encounters throughout a journey. I don't like just random encounters either. 😊

And yes, I do that too (giving players the opportunity to test their new abilities). It's a nice way for them to practise.

So, I've said this in your previous posts - multiclassing, feats, and the difference between 5e and 5.5e characters can swing these things massively. 

If you're using anything other than pre-gens, you will want to run the Pandelver and Below version of the adventure largely because it accounts for how much more powerful players are when given classes beyond just Fighter, Rogue, Druid, Cleric. When you account for subclasses options from Xanathar's, Tasha's, and all the others it gets even worse. Throw in feats and multiclassing and the base adventure becomes very, very easy. If running 5.5e you really do need to substitute in those versions of the enemies because 5.5e player characters tend to be a little beefier than 5e characters.

At core, it's worth thinking about it this way though:

Assuming they've gotten themselves a +1 weapon, your basic half orc fighter would have a 17 in STR. This means a +6 to hit, and a +6 to damage rolls (+3 base, +1 from magic, +2 from Duelist fighting style). They have a 75% chance to hit the ogre, and when they do they deal on average 10 damage. They made the attack as a Precision attack and so add an average 4 to that damage from their superiority die. That's 14 damage in just a single hit. 

Assume that each other player character can hit just as often and just as hard, that's 42 damage in a single round (assuming 1/4 misses their attack). So chances of an Orge going down in a single round are very high, especially if you have an Assassin Rogue with Sneak Attacks.

The party eliminating an Orge in the second round of combat isn't just 'normal' it's all but inevitable. The game (5e at least) is designed this way though. It's built such that players have something like a 20% edge on the monsters. Granted I've not done the maths for 5.5e, but I'm assuming it still mathematically evens out to the player characters having the mathematical edge over the enemies.

Quote from martintheactor >>

So, I've said this in your previous posts - multiclassing, feats, and the difference between 5e and 5.5e characters can swing these things massively. 

If you're using anything other than pre-gens, you will want to run the Pandelver and Below version of the adventure largely because it accounts for how much more powerful players are when given classes beyond just Fighter, Rogue, Druid, Cleric. When you account for subclasses options from Xanathar's, Tasha's, and all the others it gets even worse. Throw in feats and multiclassing and the base adventure becomes very, very easy. If running 5.5e you really do need to substitute in those versions of the enemies because 5.5e player characters tend to be a little beefier than 5e characters.

---

 

At core, it's worth thinking about it this way though:

Assuming they've gotten themselves a +1 weapon, your basic half orc fighter would have a 17 in STR. This means a +6 to hit, and a +6 to damage rolls (+3 base, +1 from magic, +2 from Duelist fighting style). They have a 75% chance to hit the ogre, and when they do they deal on average 10 damage. They made the attack as a Precision attack and so add an average 4 to that damage from their superiority die. That's 14 damage in just a single hit. 

Assume that each other player character can hit just as often and just as hard, that's 42 damage in a single round (assuming 1/4 misses their attack). So chances of an Orge going down in a single round are very high, especially if you have an Assassin Rogue with Sneak Attacks.

The party eliminating an Orge in the second round of combat isn't just 'normal' it's all but inevitable. The game (5e at least) is designed this way though. It's built such that players have something like a 20% edge on the monsters. Granted I've not done the maths for 5.5e, but I'm assuming it still mathematically evens out to the player characters having the mathematical edge over the enemies.

 Yeah, I play using 5.5 rules and I allow all 5e subclasses. It's true that combats are becoming easier for them.

The lvl 3 group I'm talking about is composed of: (off-topic question: is it composed of or composed by?)

- Bard (College of Glamour)

- Barbarian (Storm Herald)

- Druid (Circle of the moon)

- Ranger (Beast Master)

When in doubt, add more monsters :)

Normally you don't actually want combat-- especially random encounters-- to last that many rounds. Once you get to 5+ rounds of combat, the gameplay starts to slog and people start to get antsy. 2-4 rounds is like the ideal combat length unless it's a big boss. 

Just echoing what other people have said! Yes, an ogre isn't a hard fight for a Level 3 team. And there's definitely a huge difference between one monster and several.

This was actually a big learning curve for me too. At first, almost every time, I used just a single monster for my encounters. It made sense! They're level 2? It's a CR 2? Done! And then I couldn't figure out why my fights kept feeling so blah. Like, almost every encounter kind of devolved into "I swing. The monster swings. I swing. Our caster uses fire bolt. The monster swings. Is this thing dead yet?" Which didn't feel like it made sense, because the creatures were objectively awesome, so what's the problem? It took me... well, way too long tbh... to learn that except for occasional boss fights, things almost always work better with a handful of monsters instead of just one big guy standing in the middle of a room.

So yeah, fights get a lot harder and a lot more dynamic when there are more monsters. 100% to that. 

Fwiw, another thing I had to learn: Don't be afraid to push the players. I also noticed I was watering down encounters because I was terrified of a TPK. And to be sure, at most tables, you want to avoid that. But that also led to the same back-and-forth of "I swing, the monster swings, I swing, it's dead." Since I tried to make sure the players could handle every encounter, they never needed to think more creatively than that. I'm not saying throw a beholder at your level three party. Just, it's good to ramp up the danger. It forces them to think creatively, and it makes the wins feel heroic. Roll for damage behind the screen so you can fudge the numbers at need, and keep a couple deus ex machina ideas on hand for if they need a rescue, but otherwise I really had to learn that it's okay to give them something dangerous and see how they handle it.

Then, two final thoughts I'd throw in there: The CR rating doesn't really account (or at least not well) for magical items and gear. Especially after a few levels, my experience is that your table will be hitting several levels higher than the official ratings. Like, this might be a good fight for a Level 3 Rogue, but a Level 3 Rogue with two +1 daggers will tear through it.

And finally, especially with 5.5, everything seems to have a glass cannon vibe. Monsters and players alike both always seem to be one great roll away from one-shotting their opponent. It speeds up combat, but it also makes fights super swingy. It's not too rare to see players just drop a tough enemy because of a couple of good rolls.

And to your other question, in this context it's composed of. ; ) 

Good luck! Glad you're having fun!!

Quote from ereed48109 >>

Just echoing what other people have said! Yes, an ogre isn't a hard fight for a Level 3 team. And there's definitely a huge difference between one monster and several.

This was actually a big learning curve for me too. At first, almost every time, I used just a single monster for my encounters. It made sense! They're level 2? It's a CR 2? Done! And then I couldn't figure out why my fights kept feeling so blah. Like, almost every encounter kind of devolved into "I swing. The monster swings. I swing. Our caster uses fire bolt. The monster swings. Is this thing dead yet?" Which didn't feel like it made sense, because the creatures were objectively awesome, so what's the problem? It took me... well, way too long tbh... to learn that except for occasional boss fights, things almost always work better with a handful of monsters instead of just one big guy standing in the middle of a room.

So yeah, fights get a lot harder and a lot more dynamic when there are more monsters. 100% to that. 

Fwiw, another thing I had to learn: Don't be afraid to push the players. I also noticed I was watering down encounters because I was terrified of a TPK. And to be sure, at most tables, you want to avoid that. But that also led to the same back-and-forth of "I swing, the monster swings, I swing, it's dead." Since I tried to make sure the players could handle every encounter, they never needed to think more creatively than that. I'm not saying throw a beholder at your level three party. Just, it's good to ramp up the danger. It forces them to think creatively, and it makes the wins feel heroic. Roll for damage behind the screen so you can fudge the numbers at need, and keep a couple deus ex machina ideas on hand for if they need a rescue, but otherwise I really had to learn that it's okay to give them something dangerous and see how they handle it.

Then, two final thoughts I'd throw in there: The CR rating doesn't really account (or at least not well) for magical items and gear. Especially after a few levels, my experience is that your table will be hitting several levels higher than the official ratings. Like, this might be a good fight for a Level 3 Rogue, but a Level 3 Rogue with two +1 daggers will tear through it.

And finally, especially with 5.5, everything seems to have a glass cannon vibe. Monsters and players alike both always seem to be one great roll away from one-shotting their opponent. It speeds up combat, but it also makes fights super swingy. It's not too rare to see players just drop a tough enemy because of a couple of good rolls.

And to your other question, in this context it's composed of. ; ) 

Good luck! Glad you're having fun!!

 Amazing answer. I loved all your advises (including your gammar lesson :P).

I also think combats should be more dynamic. I think players prefer when they are "surprised" by the events during combat.

Thank you very much for your help!

Super happy it was helpful! 

Also, make sure to remind yourself that it's a learning curve. You're always going to have stuff you want to do better next time. But as long as people are showing up and having fun (very much yourself included!!!) then you're doing great. And combat might be the toughest thing to get right! People DM for years and still struggle with it.

Myself very much included! To this day I'm still trying to get it right. 

Like, in a recent session I wanted to give my players something a little different. So I had three werewolf spies for the BBEG overhear them getting critical information. Then as soon as they stepped out of the house, the werewolves took off. My whole idea was to make this a clever chase scene, where the players had to be creative about making sure the werewolves didn't escape with the key information, or else the BBEG would know that they're onto him. But I completely misjudged how forking hard it is to stop someone from moving in this game when they really want to. Like, you get attacks of opportunity and can try to grapple. But if someone's willing to take the hit to get away, and if they can shapeshift into a form with 40 feet of speed? It's almost impossible. If I had thrown one or maybe two at the party, this might have worked. It might have been hard enough to inspire creativity, but possible enough to give them ideas. As it was, the whole thing ended up being just a kind of frustrating mess, with the players struggling to pin anyone down long enough to do some damage. Eventually they downed one, and the other two got away.

But the players? Still having a blast. With the one they took down, they did nonlethal damage. Then they used a persuasion roll to convince him that he'd only heard part of the conversation, and they're actually working for the BBEG as part of a plot against the allied werewolf tribe. ("How else would we have known to be here?") Then they let him go. In my mind, this was a total trainwreck. In their minds, this was a chance to sow dissension among the enemy camp. I had to create a whole new NPC out of the werewolf for them to encounter in the future. It ended up great! 

Point of all that being, it's completely cool! You'll try things! A lot will work. Some won't. Some will end in utter disaster. But it's all a great game no matter what. And if you're like me (or in my experience most DM's), your players are having a heck of a lot more fun than you'll give yourself credit for.