I was wondering, At what level would a party of 4 adventurers be able to take on an ancient chromatic dragon?
Taking in consideration they might be able to convince 1 or 2 NPC's to come along and obtain a few potions of resistance to a dragons' breath weapon, almost doubling their HP.
They would have time to prepare for this fight. At what level would this no longer be a guaranteed party wipe?
A good rule of thumb is that a party of 4 adventurers lv X will be able to take on a creature of CR X+3/4.
An ancient red dragon being CR24 would mean the party should be around lv19-20 to have a chance.
This is realistic looking at the dragon's sheet: its fire breath will deal 91 damage, and with a DC24 Dex saving throw, not a lot of people will save for half. A lv20 barbarian with 18 Constitution will have around 210HP (unless using generous rules for HP), so 91 is a lot. A wizard with 14 Constitution with have a whooping 110HP, so they're almost out of the fight in a single breath.
On its turn, the dragon will deal an average of 69 damage. With its +17 to hit, missing will be extremely rare. On a round, using its legendary actions to Tail Attack, it will deal an additional 57 damage.
We haven't even taken into account the frightful presence, with its 21 DC Wis saving throw, and each failure means you "skip" a turn (and might even lose several turns coming back).
And finally, we have Lair actions on top of that, for additional damage/control on the dragon's part.
This is assuming they're not especially aware they're going to encounter a dragon though, which isn't the case here. A Heroe's Feast will negate the frightful presence and add some much-needed temporary HP to the fight. If the PC are aware that the dragon's Wis saving throw isn't amazing (a lv20 spellcaster should have a spell DC of 19, so the dragon only has a 50% chance of succeeding), they might quickly burn through its legendary resistance, and land a game-changing spell, like hold monster.
This is also assuming they don't have magic items, which would also probably not be the case. Also, characters tend to receive a huge boost at lv20, which could also change a lot of things.
My point was really just to demonstrate the deadliness of such beasts. An Ancient White Dragon is significantly weaker, and could probably be attempted around lv16 or 17.
If the PC are aware that the dragon's Wis saving throw isn't amazing (a lv20 spellcaster should have a spell DC of 19, so the dragon only has a 50% chance of succeeding), they might quickly burn through its legendary resistance, and land a game-changing spell, like hold monster.
After that, they might land a Dominate Monster, my preferred spell after that. Sure, they have advantage. But, with luck, you can just command the dragon to drown itself, or have a pet dragon for 1-8 hours. Maybe even a Geas, have a dragon as your servant permanently for a 9th level spell.
(just recognized what this thread’s for :) )
Personally, I wouldn’t have my level 4 party fight a dragon. Maybe a young one, but not an adult, let alone ancient. Maybe if you have like, 1000 NPC’s as an army to attack this thing too? Eh, probably wouldn’t work. 4 levels vs a dragon isn’t really a good idea.
also, 17-18 may not be guaranteed, but you need luck and some magic items, along with good tactics. 18-19 is pretty safe.
A very nice summary ClementP. Just one thing I want to point out about the dragon; its Frightful Presence can make people frightened, but doesn't make them spend their turn running away like the Fear spell does. They can't move closer, and have disadvantage on Attacks, but their turn is far from "skipped."
A very nice summary ClementP. Just one thing I want to point out about the dragon; its Frightful Presence can make people frightened, but doesn't make them spend their turn running away like the Fear spell does. They can't move closer, and have disadvantage on Attacks, but their turn is far from "skipped."
Woops, my bad ! This is moot anyway, since player should really be under the effect of a heroe's feast, but I appreciate the correction !
If the PC are aware that the dragon's Wis saving throw isn't amazing (a lv20 spellcaster should have a spell DC of 19, so the dragon only has a 50% chance of succeeding), they might quickly burn through its legendary resistance, and land a game-changing spell, like hold monster.
After that, they might land a Dominate Monster, my preferred spell after that. Sure, they have advantage. But, with luck, you can just command the dragon to drown itself, or have a pet dragon for 1-8 hours. Maybe even a Geas, have a dragon as your servant permanently for a 9th level spell.
The dragon would have advantage on a dominate monster though, which reduces the chances of success to 25%, on top of using an 8th-level slot. As for the Geas, I wouldn't play with that: 5d10 damage isn't much for an ancient dragon, and while it may not attack the caster, it could certainly make your life hell ;)
You're here to kill the thing, and an hold monster really does just that: it's pretty much a free round of everyone hitting (because advantage), but mostly, auto-crit. Your rogue could easily do a hundred points of damage on his round, and a character Great Weapon Master could easily deal the same amount.
And then you get a 50% chance of getting another of these rounds.
It's not an extremely satisfying answer, but the Lich sheet does tell us that a Lich encountered in its lair is considered to have a CR one greater (22 instead of 21).
I would say their lair abilities are comparable, while I definitely think the Lich has the superior Lair (spell recovery and the tether thing can be game-changers), the Ancient Red Dragon is very versatile, offering crowd control, and the last one can even make some players skip their turn.
So a +1 CR seems like a good rule of thumb for lair. But if the party is able to make specific preparations for the monster, it should probably reduce the difficulty of the fight by -1 CR*, so I'd say it's a wash.
*obviously only for calculations of "are they all gonna die ?", not in terms of XP.
Party composition will also play a huge role. My dragonborn fighter champion with natural fire resistance is going to have a lot less trouble surviving a red dragon then other characters, and is going to consistently deal a lot of damage the dragon won't be able to avoid or negate like it can with some magic and effects. The right party composition for the right kind of dragon could reduce it's threat significantly.
Of course tailoring an adventuring group specifically to fight one epic enemy isn't something most D&D games do, but it IS an interesting idea for a short high level campaign. ..... excuse me I have an adventure to write....
I was wondering, At what level would a party of 4 adventurers be able to take on an ancient chromatic dragon?
Taking in consideration they might be able to convince 1 or 2 NPC's to come along and obtain a few potions of resistance to a dragons' breath weapon, almost doubling their HP.
They would have time to prepare for this fight. At what level would this no longer be a guaranteed party wipe?
A good rule of thumb is that a party of 4 adventurers lv X will be able to take on a creature of CR X+3/4.
An ancient red dragon being CR24 would mean the party should be around lv19-20 to have a chance.
This is realistic looking at the dragon's sheet: its fire breath will deal 91 damage, and with a DC24 Dex saving throw, not a lot of people will save for half. A lv20 barbarian with 18 Constitution will have around 210HP (unless using generous rules for HP), so 91 is a lot. A wizard with 14 Constitution with have a whooping 110HP, so they're almost out of the fight in a single breath.
On its turn, the dragon will deal an average of 69 damage. With its +17 to hit, missing will be extremely rare. On a round, using its legendary actions to Tail Attack, it will deal an additional 57 damage.
We haven't even taken into account the frightful presence, with its 21 DC Wis saving throw, and each failure means you "skip" a turn (and might even lose several turns coming back).
And finally, we have Lair actions on top of that, for additional damage/control on the dragon's part.
This is assuming they're not especially aware they're going to encounter a dragon though, which isn't the case here. A Heroe's Feast will negate the frightful presence and add some much-needed temporary HP to the fight. If the PC are aware that the dragon's Wis saving throw isn't amazing (a lv20 spellcaster should have a spell DC of 19, so the dragon only has a 50% chance of succeeding), they might quickly burn through its legendary resistance, and land a game-changing spell, like hold monster.
This is also assuming they don't have magic items, which would also probably not be the case. Also, characters tend to receive a huge boost at lv20, which could also change a lot of things.
My point was really just to demonstrate the deadliness of such beasts. An Ancient White Dragon is significantly weaker, and could probably be attempted around lv16 or 17.
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After that, they might land a Dominate Monster, my preferred spell after that. Sure, they have advantage. But, with luck, you can just command the dragon to drown itself, or have a pet dragon for 1-8 hours. Maybe even a Geas, have a dragon as your servant permanently for a 9th level spell.
(just recognized what this thread’s for :) )
Personally, I wouldn’t have my level 4 party fight a dragon. Maybe a young one, but not an adult, let alone ancient. Maybe if you have like, 1000 NPC’s as an army to attack this thing too? Eh, probably wouldn’t work. 4 levels vs a dragon isn’t really a good idea.
also, 17-18 may not be guaranteed, but you need luck and some magic items, along with good tactics. 18-19 is pretty safe.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
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A very nice summary ClementP. Just one thing I want to point out about the dragon; its Frightful Presence can make people frightened, but doesn't make them spend their turn running away like the Fear spell does. They can't move closer, and have disadvantage on Attacks, but their turn is far from "skipped."
Woops, my bad ! This is moot anyway, since player should really be under the effect of a heroe's feast, but I appreciate the correction !
The dragon would have advantage on a dominate monster though, which reduces the chances of success to 25%, on top of using an 8th-level slot. As for the Geas, I wouldn't play with that: 5d10 damage isn't much for an ancient dragon, and while it may not attack the caster, it could certainly make your life hell ;)
You're here to kill the thing, and an hold monster really does just that: it's pretty much a free round of everyone hitting (because advantage), but mostly, auto-crit. Your rogue could easily do a hundred points of damage on his round, and a character Great Weapon Master could easily deal the same amount.
And then you get a 50% chance of getting another of these rounds.
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It isnt a level 4 party. It is a party with 4 members
Oh, oops. I think I misread that then. Sorry!
but, as others have said, 19-20 is a safe level.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
@Clement I'm wondering how much Lair actions and home turf advantage figure into that CR calculation.
It's not an extremely satisfying answer, but the Lich sheet does tell us that a Lich encountered in its lair is considered to have a CR one greater (22 instead of 21).
I would say their lair abilities are comparable, while I definitely think the Lich has the superior Lair (spell recovery and the tether thing can be game-changers), the Ancient Red Dragon is very versatile, offering crowd control, and the last one can even make some players skip their turn.
So a +1 CR seems like a good rule of thumb for lair. But if the party is able to make specific preparations for the monster, it should probably reduce the difficulty of the fight by -1 CR*, so I'd say it's a wash.
*obviously only for calculations of "are they all gonna die ?", not in terms of XP.
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Party composition will also play a huge role. My dragonborn fighter champion with natural fire resistance is going to have a lot less trouble surviving a red dragon then other characters, and is going to consistently deal a lot of damage the dragon won't be able to avoid or negate like it can with some magic and effects. The right party composition for the right kind of dragon could reduce it's threat significantly.
Of course tailoring an adventuring group specifically to fight one epic enemy isn't something most D&D games do, but it IS an interesting idea for a short high level campaign. ..... excuse me I have an adventure to write....
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