Question on choosing the spells they are immune to - how do you not metagame? I mean, I know my players use the same spells all the time, so I would immunise the horrors against them, but I also do not want to metagame! At this point I am thinking of going with the sample spells instead.
There are some times when maybe you should metagame a little bit. If there is a spell the party leans on over and over, maybe give the HH immunity to the spell just to force the party to change up their tactics and make a more interesting encounter for everyone. And if you're looking for an in-game reason why the HH would be immune to that particular spell, think about who created it and what the creator might know about the party. Then again, if it's a pretty common spell like fireball, maybe the HH would have just been made with that immunity by chance.
I see this as a chance to get creative and challenge your party to shift their tactics a little.
There are some times when maybe you should metagame a little bit. If there is a spell the party leans on over and over, maybe give the HH immunity to the spell just to force the party to change up their tactics and make a more interesting encounter for everyone. And if you're looking for an in-game reason why the HH would be immune to that particular spell, think about who created it and what the creator might know about the party. Then again, if it's a pretty common spell like fireball, maybe the HH would have just been made with that immunity by chance.
I see this as a chance to get creative and challenge your party to shift their tactics a little.
Thanks Texas, I was thinking along those lines. Spirit Guardians is the one the clerics use a lot, plus fireball and lightning bolt for the sorcerer.
I was trying to come up with a reason why the helmed horrors would have these immunities, but cannot think of one - they are actually snake horrors from the Rise of Tiamat book... but as you said, it’s a chance to challenge them a bit, so I just won’t give them a reason for it. I was thinking of leaving the Immunities out, but the party are all gung-ho and think they will be a walkover... even after I warned them I was turning up the difficulty level, so time for a reality check :)
I have been giving this some more thought. I can only speak for my table, but I feel like the difference between the players thinking, "Ah, the DM is throwing us a curve ball," and "Ah, the DM is screwing us," is that GOTCHA moment where they cast the spell and it doesn't work and now they have wasted a spell slot and an action. I think I would prefer to get around this by the way I introduce the monster(s).
One way to do this might be when they enter the room and see them for the first time, have everyone roll a perception check. Depending on how they roll, you may want to give out a bit of information, chalking it up to knowledge the players may have acquired in their previous travels such as DC10: These animated suits of armor have the ability to move through the air. DC15: They are resistance to magical attacks. DC20: When these suits of armor are enchanted, they are imbued by their creator with complete immunity to specific spells.
Or just have the encounter start with one of them busting out of the wall and floating through a ball of fire or arcs of lightning or whatnot. Then when the player falls back on "I cast fireball!" you can say, "Well, you can cast it of course, but that fireball the creature appeared out of didn't seem to hurt it. Are you sure you want to do that?" and then the player can rethink their action. That way you still take their tool away,but you give them the opportunity to use another tool in its place. At that point, everyone will realize you're forcing them to change their strategy for the sake of challenge and I think everyone will buy into it.
I have been giving this some more thought. I can only speak for my table, but I feel like the difference between the players thinking, "Ah, the DM is throwing us a curve ball," and "Ah, the DM is screwing us," is that GOTCHA moment where they cast the spell and it doesn't work and now they have wasted a spell slot and an action. I think I would prefer to get around this by the way I introduce the monster(s).
One way to do this might be when they enter the room and see them for the first time, have everyone roll a perception check. Depending on how they roll, you may want to give out a bit of information, chalking it up to knowledge the players may have acquired in their previous travels such as DC10: These animated suits of armor have the ability to move through the air. DC15: They are resistance to magical attacks. DC20: When these suits of armor are enchanted, they are imbued by their creator with complete immunity to specific spells.
Or just have the encounter start with one of them busting out of the wall and floating through a ball of fire or arcs of lightning or whatnot. Then when the player falls back on "I cast fireball!" you can say, "Well, you can cast it of course, but that fireball the creature appeared out of didn't seem to hurt it. Are you sure you want to do that?" and then the player can rethink their action. That way you still take their tool away,but you give them the opportunity to use another tool in its place. At that point, everyone will realize you're forcing them to change their strategy for the sake of challenge and I think everyone will buy into it.
Yeah, usually I would use a history/religion/survival check, depending on the creature, but in this particular case that’s not going to work. These are a hundreds of snakes that have crawled into suits of armour and animated them, essentially turning them into helmed horrors. I don’t think anyone would ever have seen something like this, although they have seen a helmed Horror before. I might just say... they remind you of helmed horrors, then get them to do the check and just tell them you think there could be the possibility that they have the same resistances, etc. I have removed the ability to fly though. I just like the vision of the writhing snakes holding them aloft.
My thought is if you throw a wide enough variety of challenges at the party some of them will be immune to the party’s favorite attacks without needing to metagame. Especially fire and lightning based spells. Throwing a creature that’s immune to fire against the party in a scenario where they don’t have a good line of sight to use lightning bolt without hitting other party members should be related very easy to do. The map of the cavern under the mansion in Ghosts of Saltmarsh that is designed for 1st level characters has very short sight lines and enough curves to make using any spell like lightning bolt very difficult to use.
My thought is if you throw a wide enough variety of challenges at the party some of them will be immune to the party’s favorite attacks without needing to metagame. Especially fire and lightning based spells. Throwing a creature that’s immune to fire against the party in a scenario where they don’t have a good line of sight to use lightning bolt without hitting other party members should be related very easy to do. The map of the cavern under the mansion in Ghosts of Saltmarsh that is designed for 1st level characters has very short sight lines and enough curves to make using any spell like lightning bolt very difficult to use.
Yeah, that’s not really the problem here... it’s how to choose the spell Immunities on helmed horrors without metagaming. In the end I think you either have no choice, which is not necessarily a bad thing, or you go with the example spells. I think I will take Texas’s advice in this regard.
Since you are already partially home brewing, why NOT just give the monster one elemental immunity that will affect the party instead of three specific spells?
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Hi Guys
Question on choosing the spells they are immune to - how do you not metagame? I mean, I know my players use the same spells all the time, so I would immunise the horrors against them, but I also do not want to metagame! At this point I am thinking of going with the sample spells instead.
Cheers
Simon
There are some times when maybe you should metagame a little bit. If there is a spell the party leans on over and over, maybe give the HH immunity to the spell just to force the party to change up their tactics and make a more interesting encounter for everyone. And if you're looking for an in-game reason why the HH would be immune to that particular spell, think about who created it and what the creator might know about the party. Then again, if it's a pretty common spell like fireball, maybe the HH would have just been made with that immunity by chance.
I see this as a chance to get creative and challenge your party to shift their tactics a little.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Thanks Texas, I was thinking along those lines. Spirit Guardians is the one the clerics use a lot, plus fireball and lightning bolt for the sorcerer.
I was trying to come up with a reason why the helmed horrors would have these immunities, but cannot think of one - they are actually snake horrors from the Rise of Tiamat book... but as you said, it’s a chance to challenge them a bit, so I just won’t give them a reason for it. I was thinking of leaving the Immunities out, but the party are all gung-ho and think they will be a walkover... even after I warned them I was turning up the difficulty level, so time for a reality check :)
I have been giving this some more thought. I can only speak for my table, but I feel like the difference between the players thinking, "Ah, the DM is throwing us a curve ball," and "Ah, the DM is screwing us," is that GOTCHA moment where they cast the spell and it doesn't work and now they have wasted a spell slot and an action. I think I would prefer to get around this by the way I introduce the monster(s).
One way to do this might be when they enter the room and see them for the first time, have everyone roll a perception check. Depending on how they roll, you may want to give out a bit of information, chalking it up to knowledge the players may have acquired in their previous travels such as DC10: These animated suits of armor have the ability to move through the air. DC15: They are resistance to magical attacks. DC20: When these suits of armor are enchanted, they are imbued by their creator with complete immunity to specific spells.
Or just have the encounter start with one of them busting out of the wall and floating through a ball of fire or arcs of lightning or whatnot. Then when the player falls back on "I cast fireball!" you can say, "Well, you can cast it of course, but that fireball the creature appeared out of didn't seem to hurt it. Are you sure you want to do that?" and then the player can rethink their action. That way you still take their tool away,but you give them the opportunity to use another tool in its place. At that point, everyone will realize you're forcing them to change their strategy for the sake of challenge and I think everyone will buy into it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yeah, usually I would use a history/religion/survival check, depending on the creature, but in this particular case that’s not going to work. These are a hundreds of snakes that have crawled into suits of armour and animated them, essentially turning them into helmed horrors. I don’t think anyone would ever have seen something like this, although they have seen a helmed Horror before. I might just say... they remind you of helmed horrors, then get them to do the check and just tell them you think there could be the possibility that they have the same resistances, etc. I have removed the ability to fly though. I just like the vision of the writhing snakes holding them aloft.
My thought is if you throw a wide enough variety of challenges at the party some of them will be immune to the party’s favorite attacks without needing to metagame. Especially fire and lightning based spells. Throwing a creature that’s immune to fire against the party in a scenario where they don’t have a good line of sight to use lightning bolt without hitting other party members should be related very easy to do. The map of the cavern under the mansion in Ghosts of Saltmarsh that is designed for 1st level characters has very short sight lines and enough curves to make using any spell like lightning bolt very difficult to use.
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Yeah, that’s not really the problem here... it’s how to choose the spell Immunities on helmed horrors without metagaming. In the end I think you either have no choice, which is not necessarily a bad thing, or you go with the example spells. I think I will take Texas’s advice in this regard.
Since you are already partially home brewing, why NOT just give the monster one elemental immunity that will affect the party instead of three specific spells?