For me, it's a definite no. It goes against everything that is attractive about a game, D&D or otherwise. Would I pay for someone to sit down and play any other game with me? Nope, and it's a no for D&D too. The DM is the DM because he or she is playing that role within a group that's playing a game, not because they want money for it. And if that's not the case, and they do want money for it then I'm in the wrong group and I'd go elsewhere.
I absolutely think DM's can offer their services for money. If there are people that don't agree with this, they don't have to hire those DMs. It's the freedom to charge for your expertise and work, and as a player (or customer) you don't have to buy the product.
In terms of the DM to players ratio, I can only speak to where I live which is the San Francisco Bay Area. There is a significantly greater number of players and that is only growing. Much faster than the number of DMs. I have noticed that the influx of players are younger. I'd say 10 to 16 years of age. What I've noticed is that most of them have trouble being the spotlight in a group and thus don't feel comfortable being a DM.
I think that there could be a few potential problems in the future with the growth of "professional" DMs. Once again, in my area the fastest growth is in youths and there could be some predators that take advantage of this. Also, more and more incompetent (for lack of a better word) DMs with sell their services, saturate the marker, and sour the D&D product. Lastly, once money becomes involved, problems that arise with eventually lead back to Dungeon & Dragons or Wizards Of The Coast; whether that be legal or bad press.
Well, you might get a group that actually respects you for all the work you put into it. Ofcourse, they'd be your boss so you'd have to do as they tell you. I'd think that would be a weird situation.
As for asking $15 per hour? That's a ridiculously low amount for a freelancer. You're going to have to pay your taxes, and you don't get a retirement fund, travel expenses, etc. No. Don't do it, you'll ruin your live.
I think the only realistic way for this to work is if a location (say, a local game shop) decides to hire a DM to run weekly games at the shop and pays them to do so. The shop could charge a per-session fee to players if they want. The players directly paying their DM seems weird to me.
I think the best approach would be pay per session. Say $10 a head per hour. Hell even $5 per head per hour would not be to bad if you are running a group of 4-5 players. This would be just fine provided that one was not trying to make a living off it. It would defiantly pay for more source books and pay for the hobby for the DM. As for an hourly rate payed by a hobby shop. I could not see this being worth it if it was your job. I dont know a single hobby shop that pays its employees a livable wage. Come to think of it even $20 an hour could have you just making ends meat in this economy.
I'm thinking of starting this in my city. There aren't any DM's for Hire in my area yet but I'm already known in the community since I host character creation workshops and beginner one off campaigns at my local game shop. And I host registered (my name is on the roster) one-offs for our local con. I used to have my own business years ago and had to shut it all down because of an MS diagnosis. Now I'm ready to start it up again but I'm not sure what I need on the legal side of things. Do I need a tax ID? Do I need to register as an entertainer with my state? I'm mostly just collecting information at this time. (hopefully you still see this 2 years later...)
I cant even imagine paying for someone to run a game I play in, I just wouldn't play,or maybe find an online game. Good on someone if they can get other people to do it, a sucker born every minute they say. To me it's more in the spirit of real D&D to help other people learn how to play and run their own games at some point. If you are charging folks to play It better be the best game ever. IDK it just rubs me wrong to do that. If you ran at a convention or some place where lots of folks are there to just do a one shot or something then maybe I could see that as they most likely have their own DMs somewhere. The more I think of this the more I feel upset and sick to think of people making other people pay to play any RPG game. But Like I said I guess if you can sucker someone into paying good on you, but I would just feel dirty doing that. thanks
It's a skill like any other. I don't see why you shouldn't be paid if that skill is in demand, and you are offering significant value. Supply and demand.
I think there would be a reasonable expectation of a highly polished game, though. I don't see that you could turn up with a wotc canned adventure and half-ass the NPCs, unless there is a serious dearth of DMs in the area.
You should be re-using games for multiple groups, so the preparation of the adventure should be very indepth with the assumption that you are amortizing the time/cost over multiple tables over a course of months/years. That way you can run games that are far more complex than a home DM who is running a game a single time. You should also be providing tools for the table that may be cost/time prohibitive for a home game, but which again you can amortize over tens or hundreds of games. Custom created maps, buildings, scenary and fully painted minis spring immediately to mind.
The experience should be like eating out vs. eating in. Movie theater vs. Netflix on the couch. A professionally catered and organized party, vs. gathering at your house for beer and nibbles. I don't think you'd succeed at selling just base DM services with average games, people will a DM they pay to a higher standard than their brother-in-law who is doing it for fun, and will very quickly say "Why am I paying, when I could run a game this basic myself?"
To go back to the restaurant example, I will drop $100 a head on a fantastic dining experience at a great restaurant. But I wouldn't pay someone $10 to come into my house and cook mac and cheese for my family. Even though they both meet the same basic underlying need of feeding the family.
I'm honestly against paying a DM, I get the time and effort, but IT'S FOR FUN. It starts to leech out the fun, and I feel if I paid a DM there just wouldn't be a, ah, connection there. DM to player, if that makes sense. For example, I would pay an artist to paint my portrait, but not if my friend gave me their art from Art Club or something like that. Now, if the GAMING VENUE paid the DMs, I would say "hell ya", but I feel if the players pay the DM some of the connection is lost, friendship.
I guess I am old school, not to be that guy but yeah. I am used to role playing with the same group of people I eat dinner with not on game night. The ones I watch movies with. My friends, much like the show that is bringing all these new people to D&D they are looking for friends to play a game with people they know and trust. And for people to make people pay for that experience just sucks. Find a gaming group and teach people to DM if you’re so good at it you should be paid and then Those people can go out and enjoy the game and make friends and make the world a little better place for all of us and not just your wallet. Thanks
I like to think of myself as a solid DM: I'm an actor with years of improv experience, a creative writing major, and I've been playing the game forever. Not too long ago, some people, none of whom I knew at the time, sought me out to DM a game for them. No, I wasn't about to charge them to play with me in a game I love! To be honest, I think anyone who would is taking themselves just a little too seriously. It's a game, for heaven's sake! We play because it's fun, not to be "good" or "bad" at it, and ESPECIALLY not to make money. And we want other people to have fun too, not put their enjoyment behind a cash barrier. To echo what other people are saying, if you think you're a "good" DM, use it to help new players have fun with the hobby, not to fleece money off them.
Huh. I don't get why there's all this negativity! I think it's great if some people want to make a business of DMing, and it sounds fun to join it! I'd certainly think that would make for a fun afternoon, well worth 20-30 bucks or whatever.
Like...
Having a backyard barbecue or a potluck with friends is fun. But it doesn't mean it's "wrong" to have some nice food with friends at a restaurant.
Getting together with buddies and watching a movie at home, on your own tv, with some popcorn is fun. But so is going to a movie theater and watching on the big screen.
As kids, running around in the forest and playing cops and robbers was fun. But so was going to a professionally run paintball arena, or something.
Going to a museum or exploring a new city you haven't been to can be interesting on your own or with friends. But paying for a guided tour is interesting too.
Doing some puzzles out of a book or online can be fun (for some people). But so is paying for an escape room experience.
So why would DMing be different? Sure, of course it's fun to get together with a group of friends and just play! But I think it would also be fun to get together with some friends and go get the "pro" DM experience.
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The concept of paid DM is a lot like paying for sex. You can do it, morale & legal concerns aside, if you have two consenting parties I don't see the problem, but no matter what anyone says when you paid for it, its never as good as if someone does it because they really want to.
DMing is a personal thing, its something you do for yourself, its something you do for your friends. It's about being creative, free and passionate. It's not something to be monetized. I'm sure people will argue against that but I challenge anyone to name a single freaking thing on gods green earth that was once free and when people started making money on it, it got better! Never happened.
I will totally agree with that. When people start making money, real money off something the only thing that will benefit are those making the money. I'm not talking about your average wage, I'm talking about the kind of money that corporations pull in. This day and age and what the future has in store for us as far as content being digital I could see this pose a real problem. Much like development software and someone who uses these tools often times only has access to them through the place they work for. I would worry that this could end up being the case with DM content. If paid DMing got to that level and to be honest I would like to think that it probably would never get to that level, but you never know. You have a greedy corporation out there around every corner just looking for a way to make some money off of somebody else's hard work. I've been following this thread for a while and there are a lot of interesting responses. Even I myself am not opposed to being paid to DM, it's just the level that it should be handled and I don't think utilized as a business. Sure making some extra money here and there would be great. Or just simply to get paid for your time and turn to make enough money to buy a few more sourcebooks and whatnot. Basically being able to add to your own game without actually having to fork out money from your own pocket. This I am fine with. It would be an absolute nightmare if large corporations began taking hold of our hobby and turning into a corporate nightmare.
The concept of paid DM is a lot like paying for sex. You can do it, morale & legal concerns aside, if you have two consenting parties I don't see the problem, but no matter what anyone says when you paid for it, its never as good as if someone does it because they really want to.
DMing is a personal thing, its something you do for yourself, its something you do for your friends. It's about being creative, free and passionate. It's not something to be monetized. I'm sure people will argue against that but I challenge anyone to name a single freaking thing on gods green earth that was once free and when people started making money on it, it got better! Never happened.
I will totally agree with that. When people start making money, real money off something the only thing that will benefit are those making the money. I'm not talking about your average wage, I'm talking about the kind of money that corporations pull in. This day and age and what the future has in store for us as far as content being digital I could see this pose a real problem. Much like development software and someone who uses these tools often times only has access to them through the place they work for. I would worry that this could end up being the case with DM content. If paid DMing got to that level and to be honest I would like to think that it probably would never get to that level, but you never know. You have a greedy corporation out there around every corner just looking for a way to make some money off of somebody else's hard work. I've been following this thread for a while and there are a lot of interesting responses. Even I myself am not opposed to being paid to DM, it's just the level that it should be handled and I don't think utilized as a business. Sure making some extra money here and there would be great. Or just simply to get paid for your time and turn to make enough money to buy a few more sourcebooks and whatnot. Basically being able to add to your own game without actually having to fork out money from your own pocket. This I am fine with. It would be an absolute nightmare if large corporations began taking hold of our hobby and turning into a corporate nightmare.
Hasbro owns WotC. Hasbro has a market cap of $12.5bn. I think the time to fear corporate incursion into DnD has come and gone, to be honest. You've already hooked yourself up to the milking machine, your only choice now is how many udders.
I don't think professional DMing would ever replace home-DMing. Just as canned adventures coexist with homebrew. This isn't an either/or - no-one is mandating that every table should pay their DM. It would just become another tier of the game, for those prepared to pay for it.
Tier 1: Pay for the rules, homebrew adventures, home-DM. Tier 2: Pay for the rules, pay for canned adventures, home-DM. Tier 3: Pay for the rules, throw a few bucks to a local college kid to run canned adventures, possibly pay a bit extra if they can bring along minis, scenery, etc... Tier 4: Pay a WotC certified professional tier DM to run a highly detailed non-published game, complete with visual aids like minis and scenery. Tier 5: Pay (a lot) for a professional tier DM to completely customize a game for your group, and only your group.
Not every tier will be affordable or desirable to every group. Personally I'd not pay for a bog standard adventure since I like to think that even as a new DM I'm doing a pretty good job myself and enjoying it, but I bet there are groups out there that would pay a small nominal fee just to have someone run a game. Simply put - not everyone wants to be a DM, not every group can find someone that wants to DM for them, and not every DM can afford to give freely of their time for a group of strangers. It's work, and it's fair to ask to be recompensed if you are not doing it for your own enjoyment. I might pay for night out with friends to the local pro-DND venue for a one shot adventure run by well-regarded local DM, though.
At the truly professional tier, a 40-hour a week DM could invest hundreds of hours into crafting glorious worlds to play in, full of completely fleshed out NPCs. The effort and money spent on this could be amortized across tens or hundreds of tables - especially if it was a corporate effort with a small team of writers servicing a broader group of well trained DMs. Think Critical Role style adventures made available to those that have the means to pony up $400 for a four hour session (split across the group). Very few people have the ability or time to put together an adventure of this quality without being paid for it. Picture a group of lawyers or surgeons - in the time it takes to prepare an adventure they could earn way more money billing clients than they'd pay a DM to prepare and run an adventure for them.
Hiring a professional DM instead of DIY is really no different from buying a prewritten adventure rather than homebrewing. You're just outsourcing another part of the game that you aren't prepared to do yourself.
@DougLanglois:I think there's another tier in there: Tier 0 - Homebrew RPG, homebrew adventures, home-GM. I think it's pretty rare, and it's a crap-ton of work, but you don't need to involve anyone's corporate products, or intellectual property, at all, if you don't wish to do so. I know I'd like to try it, if I could find the time :)
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@DougLanglois:I think there's another tier in there: Tier 0 - Homebrew RPG, homebrew adventures, home-GM. I think it's pretty rare, and it's a crap-ton of work, but you don't need to involve anyone's corporate products, or intellectual property, at all, if you don't wish to do so. I know I'd like to try it, if I could find the time :)
Another great example that just by playing DnD, we're already paying someone else to do something that technically we could do ourselves. And that makes neither us, nor the creators of the game, bad people. Thanks Vedexent.
This entire thread could be boiled down to if you don't think you should pay DMs, then... don't. If someone asks for payment to DM for you, politely decline and continue your search for a new friend that is a DM. But you don't get to paint them as bad people for valuing their time, or tell them they should give you their time for free. Every player is a potential DM, and if a group is DM-less, there's a reason no one at the table wanted to do the job.
Party : "We need a DM!" DM : "Well, I wasn't looking for a game, but I'll do it for $50 a session to cover some of my time, my VTT subscription, printing, the prep I'll have to do, and all the books and minis I've invested in over the last ten years that we can play with." Party : "No way! We want someone to do it for free. You don't deserve to be paid just for playing a game, when one of us could just do it!" DM : "OK, how about one of you do it?" Party : "No way! That's way too much work, we can't remember all the rules, world-building is hard, and we don't have all the books and minis and stuff!" DM : "..."
If we're going down that road ... a hobby has many points, to many people.
I home brew as a hobby. Some people home brew for cheap beer. I home brew to explore styles, and learn the skill of doing different style I don't actually drink a large volume of beer, so "cheap beer" isn't the point for me . Neither approach to home brewing is wrong.
Your claim:
The whole point of it is that its a collaboration of creative expression among a group of people, its very much the point of the hobby.
is completely valid - for you. It may, or may not, be valid for me; I may be a hard-core tactical war gamer coming from Warhammer 40K ( I'm not, btw ), so the point for me might be solely the tactical combat side of D&D, or it may be something totally different.
What keeps getting missed here is "this is my preference" is not the same as "this is what is objectively true".
It's clear that being, or employing, a DM-for-hire is not for you. That's OK. It's not for me either.
But that doesn't make the people for who want to do it, or think it's a viable option wrong. They are not missing the point of your hobby. To them the point is different.
They are not confused, you don't need to educate them, you don't have to rant against them for "spoiling" your hobby. No one is coming to your game and forcing you to employ a DM-for-hire at gunpoint. Whether someone wants to DM for hire doesn't affect your home game, one iota.
People who have a different perspective than you on a topic are not objectively wrong; they just see things differently that you.
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@DougLanglois:I think there's another tier in there: Tier 0 - Homebrew RPG, homebrew adventures, home-GM. I think it's pretty rare, and it's a crap-ton of work, but you don't need to involve anyone's corporate products, or intellectual property, at all, if you don't wish to do so. I know I'd like to try it, if I could find the time :)
Another great example that just by playing DnD, we're already paying someone else to do something that technically we could do ourselves. And that makes neither us, nor the creators of the game, bad people. Thanks Vedexent.
This entire thread could be boiled down to if you don't think you should pay DMs, then... don't. If someone asks for payment to DM for you, politely decline and continue your search for a new friend that is a DM. But you don't get to paint them as bad people for valuing their time, or tell them they should give you their time for free. Every player is a potential DM, and if a group is DM-less, there's a reason no one at the table wanted to do the job.
Party : "We need a DM!" DM : "Well, I wasn't looking for a game, but I'll do it for $50 a session to cover some of my time, my VTT subscription, printing, the prep I'll have to do, and all the books and minis I've invested in over the last ten years that we can play with." Party : "No way! We want someone to do it for free. You don't deserve to be paid just for playing a game, when one of us could just do it!" DM : "OK, how about one of you do it?" Party : "No way! That's way too much work, we can't remember all the rules, world-building is hard, and we don't have all the books and minis and stuff!" DM : "..."
I don't think anyone is saying people who are asking to get paid to DM are stupid or bad people, I think what people are saying is that D&D is a hobby. The whole point of it is that its a collaboration of creative expression among a group of people, its very much the point of the hobby. We get together, create stories together, build friendships, share food and drinks, laughs and memories. A hired DM is kind of like trying to make that work with a complete stranger who only showed up for the event because you offered him 50 bucks else he would want nothing to do with you. Its very much like going to the prom but bringing a hooker. The hooker is not a bad person, the guy hiring her is just lonely, but the entire thing all together is kind of pathetic and sad, something to be discouraged.
What you are saying is that the important thing is to have a date for the prom and there is nothing wrong with that. I get that... and I'm not really saying its wrong, but I am saying you are missing the point of prom.
I think you're missing the point that you don't get to determine how anyone else goes about enjoying their hobby. You aren't the final arbiter of what the point of the hobby is. You are projecting how you see the game onto other people, and at that point everything breaks down, because they are not you. The point of playing DnD for me is whatever I say it is. The point of playing DnD for Jane down the road is whatever Jane says it is. There are as many 'points' as there are players.
Again, if a paid DM isn't for you, it isn't for you. You definitely shouldn't hire one. You are in no way wrong for not allowing a paid DM at your table. Your opinion that for you it would feel like missing out on the point of the hobby is completely fair and valid. I'll never tell you you are wrong for feeling like that.
The issue I take is that you are talking in generalizations. Your words don't convey "this is how I would feel about it at my table" they convey "this is how it is". It's the point at which you assert that someone else is in some way 'missing the point', that you stray from having a differing opinion that can coexist with my opinion, to being wrong. Because now you're taking your opinion and applying it as truth to the experience of someone else. I am not arguing against your opinion - I'm arguing against you applying that opinion to other people.
@DougLanglois:I think there's another tier in there: Tier 0 - Homebrew RPG, homebrew adventures, home-GM. I think it's pretty rare, and it's a crap-ton of work, but you don't need to involve anyone's corporate products, or intellectual property, at all, if you don't wish to do so. I know I'd like to try it, if I could find the time :)
Another great example that just by playing DnD, we're already paying someone else to do something that technically we could do ourselves. And that makes neither us, nor the creators of the game, bad people. Thanks Vedexent.
This entire thread could be boiled down to if you don't think you should pay DMs, then... don't. If someone asks for payment to DM for you, politely decline and continue your search for a new friend that is a DM. But you don't get to paint them as bad people for valuing their time, or tell them they should give you their time for free. Every player is a potential DM, and if a group is DM-less, there's a reason no one at the table wanted to do the job.
Party : "We need a DM!" DM : "Well, I wasn't looking for a game, but I'll do it for $50 a session to cover some of my time, my VTT subscription, printing, the prep I'll have to do, and all the books and minis I've invested in over the last ten years that we can play with." Party : "No way! We want someone to do it for free. You don't deserve to be paid just for playing a game, when one of us could just do it!" DM : "OK, how about one of you do it?" Party : "No way! That's way too much work, we can't remember all the rules, world-building is hard, and we don't have all the books and minis and stuff!" DM : "..."
Heh, good point. I dont like others putting their booger fingers on my books.
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For me, it's a definite no. It goes against everything that is attractive about a game, D&D or otherwise. Would I pay for someone to sit down and play any other game with me? Nope, and it's a no for D&D too. The DM is the DM because he or she is playing that role within a group that's playing a game, not because they want money for it. And if that's not the case, and they do want money for it then I'm in the wrong group and I'd go elsewhere.
I absolutely think DM's can offer their services for money. If there are people that don't agree with this, they don't have to hire those DMs. It's the freedom to charge for your expertise and work, and as a player (or customer) you don't have to buy the product.
In terms of the DM to players ratio, I can only speak to where I live which is the San Francisco Bay Area. There is a significantly greater number of players and that is only growing. Much faster than the number of DMs. I have noticed that the influx of players are younger. I'd say 10 to 16 years of age. What I've noticed is that most of them have trouble being the spotlight in a group and thus don't feel comfortable being a DM.
I think that there could be a few potential problems in the future with the growth of "professional" DMs. Once again, in my area the fastest growth is in youths and there could be some predators that take advantage of this. Also, more and more incompetent (for lack of a better word) DMs with sell their services, saturate the marker, and sour the D&D product. Lastly, once money becomes involved, problems that arise with eventually lead back to Dungeon & Dragons or Wizards Of The Coast; whether that be legal or bad press.
Well, you might get a group that actually respects you for all the work you put into it. Ofcourse, they'd be your boss so you'd have to do as they tell you. I'd think that would be a weird situation.
As for asking $15 per hour? That's a ridiculously low amount for a freelancer. You're going to have to pay your taxes, and you don't get a retirement fund, travel expenses, etc. No. Don't do it, you'll ruin your live.
I think the only realistic way for this to work is if a location (say, a local game shop) decides to hire a DM to run weekly games at the shop and pays them to do so. The shop could charge a per-session fee to players if they want. The players directly paying their DM seems weird to me.
I think the best approach would be pay per session. Say $10 a head per hour. Hell even $5 per head per hour would not be to bad if you are running a group of 4-5 players. This would be just fine provided that one was not trying to make a living off it. It would defiantly pay for more source books and pay for the hobby for the DM. As for an hourly rate payed by a hobby shop. I could not see this being worth it if it was your job. I dont know a single hobby shop that pays its employees a livable wage. Come to think of it even $20 an hour could have you just making ends meat in this economy.
I'm thinking of starting this in my city. There aren't any DM's for Hire in my area yet but I'm already known in the community since I host character creation workshops and beginner one off campaigns at my local game shop. And I host registered (my name is on the roster) one-offs for our local con. I used to have my own business years ago and had to shut it all down because of an MS diagnosis. Now I'm ready to start it up again but I'm not sure what I need on the legal side of things. Do I need a tax ID? Do I need to register as an entertainer with my state? I'm mostly just collecting information at this time. (hopefully you still see this 2 years later...)
I cant even imagine paying for someone to run a game I play in, I just wouldn't play,or maybe find an online game. Good on someone if they can get other people to do it, a sucker born every minute they say. To me it's more in the spirit of real D&D to help other people learn how to play and run their own games at some point. If you are charging folks to play It better be the best game ever. IDK it just rubs me wrong to do that. If you ran at a convention or some place where lots of folks are there to just do a one shot or something then maybe I could see that as they most likely have their own DMs somewhere. The more I think of this the more I feel upset and sick to think of people making other people pay to play any RPG game. But Like I said I guess if you can sucker someone into paying good on you, but I would just feel dirty doing that. thanks
It's a skill like any other. I don't see why you shouldn't be paid if that skill is in demand, and you are offering significant value. Supply and demand.
I think there would be a reasonable expectation of a highly polished game, though. I don't see that you could turn up with a wotc canned adventure and half-ass the NPCs, unless there is a serious dearth of DMs in the area.
You should be re-using games for multiple groups, so the preparation of the adventure should be very indepth with the assumption that you are amortizing the time/cost over multiple tables over a course of months/years. That way you can run games that are far more complex than a home DM who is running a game a single time. You should also be providing tools for the table that may be cost/time prohibitive for a home game, but which again you can amortize over tens or hundreds of games. Custom created maps, buildings, scenary and fully painted minis spring immediately to mind.
The experience should be like eating out vs. eating in. Movie theater vs. Netflix on the couch. A professionally catered and organized party, vs. gathering at your house for beer and nibbles. I don't think you'd succeed at selling just base DM services with average games, people will a DM they pay to a higher standard than their brother-in-law who is doing it for fun, and will very quickly say "Why am I paying, when I could run a game this basic myself?"
To go back to the restaurant example, I will drop $100 a head on a fantastic dining experience at a great restaurant. But I wouldn't pay someone $10 to come into my house and cook mac and cheese for my family. Even though they both meet the same basic underlying need of feeding the family.
I'm honestly against paying a DM, I get the time and effort, but IT'S FOR FUN. It starts to leech out the fun, and I feel if I paid a DM there just wouldn't be a, ah, connection there. DM to player, if that makes sense. For example, I would pay an artist to paint my portrait, but not if my friend gave me their art from Art Club or something like that. Now, if the GAMING VENUE paid the DMs, I would say "hell ya", but I feel if the players pay the DM some of the connection is lost, friendship.
D&D is a game for nerds... so I guess I'm one :p
I guess I am old school, not to be that guy but yeah. I am used to role playing with the same group of people I eat dinner with not on game night. The ones I watch movies with. My friends, much like the show that is bringing all these new people to D&D they are looking for friends to play a game with people they know and trust. And for people to make people pay for that experience just sucks. Find a gaming group and teach people to DM if you’re so good at it you should be paid and then Those people can go out and enjoy the game and make friends and make the world a little better place for all of us and not just your wallet. Thanks
I like to think of myself as a solid DM: I'm an actor with years of improv experience, a creative writing major, and I've been playing the game forever. Not too long ago, some people, none of whom I knew at the time, sought me out to DM a game for them. No, I wasn't about to charge them to play with me in a game I love! To be honest, I think anyone who would is taking themselves just a little too seriously. It's a game, for heaven's sake! We play because it's fun, not to be "good" or "bad" at it, and ESPECIALLY not to make money. And we want other people to have fun too, not put their enjoyment behind a cash barrier. To echo what other people are saying, if you think you're a "good" DM, use it to help new players have fun with the hobby, not to fleece money off them.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Huh. I don't get why there's all this negativity! I think it's great if some people want to make a business of DMing, and it sounds fun to join it! I'd certainly think that would make for a fun afternoon, well worth 20-30 bucks or whatever.
Like...
Having a backyard barbecue or a potluck with friends is fun. But it doesn't mean it's "wrong" to have some nice food with friends at a restaurant.
Getting together with buddies and watching a movie at home, on your own tv, with some popcorn is fun. But so is going to a movie theater and watching on the big screen.
As kids, running around in the forest and playing cops and robbers was fun. But so was going to a professionally run paintball arena, or something.
Going to a museum or exploring a new city you haven't been to can be interesting on your own or with friends. But paying for a guided tour is interesting too.
Doing some puzzles out of a book or online can be fun (for some people). But so is paying for an escape room experience.
So why would DMing be different? Sure, of course it's fun to get together with a group of friends and just play! But I think it would also be fun to get together with some friends and go get the "pro" DM experience.
Medical care.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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I will totally agree with that. When people start making money, real money off something the only thing that will benefit are those making the money. I'm not talking about your average wage, I'm talking about the kind of money that corporations pull in. This day and age and what the future has in store for us as far as content being digital I could see this pose a real problem. Much like development software and someone who uses these tools often times only has access to them through the place they work for. I would worry that this could end up being the case with DM content. If paid DMing got to that level and to be honest I would like to think that it probably would never get to that level, but you never know. You have a greedy corporation out there around every corner just looking for a way to make some money off of somebody else's hard work. I've been following this thread for a while and there are a lot of interesting responses. Even I myself am not opposed to being paid to DM, it's just the level that it should be handled and I don't think utilized as a business. Sure making some extra money here and there would be great. Or just simply to get paid for your time and turn to make enough money to buy a few more sourcebooks and whatnot. Basically being able to add to your own game without actually having to fork out money from your own pocket. This I am fine with. It would be an absolute nightmare if large corporations began taking hold of our hobby and turning into a corporate nightmare.
Hasbro owns WotC. Hasbro has a market cap of $12.5bn. I think the time to fear corporate incursion into DnD has come and gone, to be honest. You've already hooked yourself up to the milking machine, your only choice now is how many udders.
I don't think professional DMing would ever replace home-DMing. Just as canned adventures coexist with homebrew. This isn't an either/or - no-one is mandating that every table should pay their DM. It would just become another tier of the game, for those prepared to pay for it.
Tier 1: Pay for the rules, homebrew adventures, home-DM.
Tier 2: Pay for the rules, pay for canned adventures, home-DM.
Tier 3: Pay for the rules, throw a few bucks to a local college kid to run canned adventures, possibly pay a bit extra if they can bring along minis, scenery, etc...
Tier 4: Pay a WotC certified professional tier DM to run a highly detailed non-published game, complete with visual aids like minis and scenery.
Tier 5: Pay (a lot) for a professional tier DM to completely customize a game for your group, and only your group.
Not every tier will be affordable or desirable to every group. Personally I'd not pay for a bog standard adventure since I like to think that even as a new DM I'm doing a pretty good job myself and enjoying it, but I bet there are groups out there that would pay a small nominal fee just to have someone run a game. Simply put - not everyone wants to be a DM, not every group can find someone that wants to DM for them, and not every DM can afford to give freely of their time for a group of strangers. It's work, and it's fair to ask to be recompensed if you are not doing it for your own enjoyment. I might pay for night out with friends to the local pro-DND venue for a one shot adventure run by well-regarded local DM, though.
At the truly professional tier, a 40-hour a week DM could invest hundreds of hours into crafting glorious worlds to play in, full of completely fleshed out NPCs. The effort and money spent on this could be amortized across tens or hundreds of tables - especially if it was a corporate effort with a small team of writers servicing a broader group of well trained DMs. Think Critical Role style adventures made available to those that have the means to pony up $400 for a four hour session (split across the group). Very few people have the ability or time to put together an adventure of this quality without being paid for it. Picture a group of lawyers or surgeons - in the time it takes to prepare an adventure they could earn way more money billing clients than they'd pay a DM to prepare and run an adventure for them.
Hiring a professional DM instead of DIY is really no different from buying a prewritten adventure rather than homebrewing. You're just outsourcing another part of the game that you aren't prepared to do yourself.
@DougLanglois:I think there's another tier in there: Tier 0 - Homebrew RPG, homebrew adventures, home-GM. I think it's pretty rare, and it's a crap-ton of work, but you don't need to involve anyone's corporate products, or intellectual property, at all, if you don't wish to do so. I know I'd like to try it, if I could find the time :)
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Another great example that just by playing DnD, we're already paying someone else to do something that technically we could do ourselves. And that makes neither us, nor the creators of the game, bad people. Thanks Vedexent.
This entire thread could be boiled down to if you don't think you should pay DMs, then... don't. If someone asks for payment to DM for you, politely decline and continue your search for a new friend that is a DM. But you don't get to paint them as bad people for valuing their time, or tell them they should give you their time for free. Every player is a potential DM, and if a group is DM-less, there's a reason no one at the table wanted to do the job.
Party : "We need a DM!"
DM : "Well, I wasn't looking for a game, but I'll do it for $50 a session to cover some of my time, my VTT subscription, printing, the prep I'll have to do, and all the books and minis I've invested in over the last ten years that we can play with."
Party : "No way! We want someone to do it for free. You don't deserve to be paid just for playing a game, when one of us could just do it!"
DM : "OK, how about one of you do it?"
Party : "No way! That's way too much work, we can't remember all the rules, world-building is hard, and we don't have all the books and minis and stuff!"
DM : "..."
If we're going down that road ... a hobby has many points, to many people.
I home brew as a hobby. Some people home brew for cheap beer. I home brew to explore styles, and learn the skill of doing different style I don't actually drink a large volume of beer, so "cheap beer" isn't the point for me . Neither approach to home brewing is wrong.
Your claim:
is completely valid - for you. It may, or may not, be valid for me; I may be a hard-core tactical war gamer coming from Warhammer 40K ( I'm not, btw ), so the point for me might be solely the tactical combat side of D&D, or it may be something totally different.
What keeps getting missed here is "this is my preference" is not the same as "this is what is objectively true".
It's clear that being, or employing, a DM-for-hire is not for you. That's OK. It's not for me either.
But that doesn't make the people for who want to do it, or think it's a viable option wrong. They are not missing the point of your hobby. To them the point is different.
They are not confused, you don't need to educate them, you don't have to rant against them for "spoiling" your hobby. No one is coming to your game and forcing you to employ a DM-for-hire at gunpoint. Whether someone wants to DM for hire doesn't affect your home game, one iota.
People who have a different perspective than you on a topic are not objectively wrong; they just see things differently that you.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I think you're missing the point that you don't get to determine how anyone else goes about enjoying their hobby. You aren't the final arbiter of what the point of the hobby is. You are projecting how you see the game onto other people, and at that point everything breaks down, because they are not you. The point of playing DnD for me is whatever I say it is. The point of playing DnD for Jane down the road is whatever Jane says it is. There are as many 'points' as there are players.
Again, if a paid DM isn't for you, it isn't for you. You definitely shouldn't hire one. You are in no way wrong for not allowing a paid DM at your table. Your opinion that for you it would feel like missing out on the point of the hobby is completely fair and valid. I'll never tell you you are wrong for feeling like that.
The issue I take is that you are talking in generalizations. Your words don't convey "this is how I would feel about it at my table" they convey "this is how it is". It's the point at which you assert that someone else is in some way 'missing the point', that you stray from having a differing opinion that can coexist with my opinion, to being wrong. Because now you're taking your opinion and applying it as truth to the experience of someone else. I am not arguing against your opinion - I'm arguing against you applying that opinion to other people.
Heh, good point. I dont like others putting their booger fingers on my books.