Have spent a little time with the Monster Hunter and it badly needs some balancing and tweaks. It's a really cool idea but it feels half finished.
For example, its a martial class but lacks an extra attack at 5, instead they push it all the way to level 11? Instead, at level 5, they give you something that uses your INT score bonus for attacks and damage, which is mostly pointless because three of the four MH subclasses do not cast spells. So what are you expected to do, dump points into INT and only use them for one feature? Not very well thought out. The higher level feature, Occult Knowledge, is also completely busted because it has no limits on the number of times you can cast the extra spells--instead you can cast them "at will". It needs to be fixed.
I would adjust Extra Attack down to level 5 so its in line with other martial classes and also make heavy armor available to all the subclasses. It's a third caster, not nearly as powerful as playing a Paladin, more like an Eldritch Knight but with worse armor.
The other Grim Hollow subclasses do not appear to be able to access the new weapons table which needs to get fixed if it hasn't already been addressed.
did you even look at expert strike it makes your attacks do crazy amounts of damage not having extra attack is fine
Yeah I saw it, it uses your INT modifier for attacks and damage. Not exactly "crazy". It doesn't make up for not having the extra attack, not even close. What's the point of having it on a character that, with the exception of one of the 4 subclasses, doesn't even cast spells? Not well thought out IMO.
Still though the official book has been printed ghostfire isn’t going to change the way it works if D&D beyond asked too because then it wouldn’t match the actual book
Still though the official book has been printed ghostfire isn’t going to change the way it works if D&D beyond asked too because then it wouldn’t match the actual book
Sure but there's lots of things that don't work exactly the same on D&DB as they do in the books. I think the new weapons table they came up with (which is awesome BTW) doesn't work on the main D&D classes unless you add them one at a time, for example. There's also no way to do the transformations they outline that I have seen and those are pretty sweet.
I homebrewed an "Occultist v2.0" that has the extra attack at Level 5 and heavy armor so if I end up playing the class that's what I will roll with. It looks pretty fun. Otherwise it's just too weak as a purely martial class, and the INT mod bonus doesn't make any sense. Should have made it a DEX or STR bonus on a martial character.
OK, that I understand. There’s a difference between home brewing, an alternate version of something that works better for your place style and asking the company that made the thing to change it. IOK, that I understand. There’s a difference between home brewing, a alternate version of something that works better for your place style and asking the company that made the thing to change it I myself and a novelist and a game, designer and I personally think that asking someone who worked really hard on something to change it just because you don’t like the design is disrespectful to that creator no offense to you, though I understand that this is a viewpoint that I developed based on my career
OK, that I understand. There’s a difference between home brewing, an alternate version of something that works better for your place style and asking the company that made the thing to change it. IOK, that I understand. There’s a difference between home brewing, a alternate version of something that works better for your place style and asking the company that made the thing to change it I myself and a novelist and a game, designer and I personally think that asking someone who worked really hard on something to change it just because you don’t like the design is disrespectful to that creator no offense to you, though I understand that this is a viewpoint that I developed based on my career
Grim Hollow designers are doing fine without listening to me, I'm just giving feedback.
I believe that the wording of the expert strike feature is actually that you add your intelligence modifier to attacks and damage, not use it in place of the strength or dexterity modifier. If that's the case, it might be intentional that you add both, which would mean monster hunters have significantly higher and more consistent weapon damage than another martial. Since they can make reaction attacks pretty easily with their Studied Response feature. While adding your intelligence modifier at level 5 might seem worse than extra attack, it does help break 5e's bounded accuracy which is extremely powerful.
For example, compare the wording of a feature like Shillelagh ("For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon...") which has the "instead" verbiage and also the wording of a feature like Oath of Devotion Paladin's Sacred Weapon "For 10 minutes or until you use this feature again, you add your Charisma modifier to attack rolls you make with that weapon..." The first replaces the modifier, but the second does not, potentially meaning that the intelligence bonus is additive to the default modifier for the attack.
Now, this could just be awkward wording- it wouldn't be the first time third party content unintentionally missed precise verbiage leading to a lack of clarity around how a feature works- but between the reaction attacks from Studied Response (especially for ranged weapons) and, if it is intended to work this way, the additional bonus from intelligence stacking with the strength and dexterity normally, that actually makes monster hunter one of the better martial classes for weapon attacks, depending on their intelligence scores. That definitely looks a bit unbalanced as it breaks bounded accuracy, so I'm about 90% sure that the *INTENDED* ruling is that the intelligence modifier "should" replace it, but that isn't how the feature is actually technically worded.
All of that quibbling over wording aside, even if you go with the more balanced ruling that expert strike is an "empty" feature if your intelligence is lower than your strength/dexterity, studied response will often make up for the early lack of extra attack, and in some contexts is actually better since you don't lose your reaction if you miss. As long as the monster hunter has at least one valid target for studied response per turn you essentially get extra attack at level two! Given the wording of this feature, you could even re-use it against different attacks until you eventually hit, even from the same creature as part of a multi-attack feature. That's actually mathematically better than extra attack, since a miss lets you make another attack if there are multiple creatures to trigger the reaction.
The int modifier absolutely is better when you consider that Monster Hunters are expected to do at least 2 attacks at level 5 every single round. Adding Int to Attack and Damage Rolls means that those 2 attacks will effectively never miss. That’s a perfectly fine trade even if you don’t try to optimize by using a heavy crossbow. Using longbow vs Heavy Crossbow build it’s essentially even but adding int is much more accurate: 3d8 + 12 (25.5 at +9) vs 2d10 + 14 (25 at +12).
If you do try to optimize using their new thrown weapons feat, it’s not even close: 5d4 + 41 (53.5 at +10). With extra attack instead it’d just be 6d4 + 32 (47 at +7).
Have spent a little time with the Monster Hunter and it badly needs some balancing and tweaks. It's a really cool idea but it feels half finished.
For example, its a martial class but lacks an extra attack at 5, instead they push it all the way to level 11? Instead, at level 5, they give you something that uses your INT score bonus for attacks and damage, which is mostly pointless because three of the four MH subclasses do not cast spells. So what are you expected to do, dump points into INT and only use them for one feature? Not very well thought out. The higher level feature, Occult Knowledge, is also completely busted because it has no limits on the number of times you can cast the extra spells--instead you can cast them "at will". It needs to be fixed.
I would adjust Extra Attack down to level 5 so its in line with other martial classes and also make heavy armor available to all the subclasses. It's a third caster, not nearly as powerful as playing a Paladin, more like an Eldritch Knight but with worse armor.
The other Grim Hollow subclasses do not appear to be able to access the new weapons table which needs to get fixed if it hasn't already been addressed.
did you even look at expert strike it makes your attacks do crazy amounts of damage not having extra attack is fine
Yeah I saw it, it uses your INT modifier for attacks and damage. Not exactly "crazy". It doesn't make up for not having the extra attack, not even close. What's the point of having it on a character that, with the exception of one of the 4 subclasses, doesn't even cast spells? Not well thought out IMO.
Still though the official book has been printed ghostfire isn’t going to change the way it works if D&D beyond asked too because then it wouldn’t match the actual book
Sure but there's lots of things that don't work exactly the same on D&DB as they do in the books. I think the new weapons table they came up with (which is awesome BTW) doesn't work on the main D&D classes unless you add them one at a time, for example. There's also no way to do the transformations they outline that I have seen and those are pretty sweet.
I homebrewed an "Occultist v2.0" that has the extra attack at Level 5 and heavy armor so if I end up playing the class that's what I will roll with. It looks pretty fun. Otherwise it's just too weak as a purely martial class, and the INT mod bonus doesn't make any sense. Should have made it a DEX or STR bonus on a martial character.
OK, that I understand. There’s a difference between home brewing, an alternate version of something that works better for your place style and asking the company that made the thing to change it. IOK, that I understand. There’s a difference between home brewing, a alternate version of something that works better for your place style and asking the company that made the thing to change it I myself and a novelist and a game, designer and I personally think that asking someone who worked really hard on something to change it just because you don’t like the design is disrespectful to that creator no offense to you, though I understand that this is a viewpoint that I developed based on my career
Grim Hollow designers are doing fine without listening to me, I'm just giving feedback.
I believe that the wording of the expert strike feature is actually that you add your intelligence modifier to attacks and damage, not use it in place of the strength or dexterity modifier. If that's the case, it might be intentional that you add both, which would mean monster hunters have significantly higher and more consistent weapon damage than another martial. Since they can make reaction attacks pretty easily with their Studied Response feature. While adding your intelligence modifier at level 5 might seem worse than extra attack, it does help break 5e's bounded accuracy which is extremely powerful.
For example, compare the wording of a feature like Shillelagh ("For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon...") which has the "instead" verbiage and also the wording of a feature like Oath of Devotion Paladin's Sacred Weapon "For 10 minutes or until you use this feature again, you add your Charisma modifier to attack rolls you make with that weapon..." The first replaces the modifier, but the second does not, potentially meaning that the intelligence bonus is additive to the default modifier for the attack.
Now, this could just be awkward wording- it wouldn't be the first time third party content unintentionally missed precise verbiage leading to a lack of clarity around how a feature works- but between the reaction attacks from Studied Response (especially for ranged weapons) and, if it is intended to work this way, the additional bonus from intelligence stacking with the strength and dexterity normally, that actually makes monster hunter one of the better martial classes for weapon attacks, depending on their intelligence scores. That definitely looks a bit unbalanced as it breaks bounded accuracy, so I'm about 90% sure that the *INTENDED* ruling is that the intelligence modifier "should" replace it, but that isn't how the feature is actually technically worded.
All of that quibbling over wording aside, even if you go with the more balanced ruling that expert strike is an "empty" feature if your intelligence is lower than your strength/dexterity, studied response will often make up for the early lack of extra attack, and in some contexts is actually better since you don't lose your reaction if you miss. As long as the monster hunter has at least one valid target for studied response per turn you essentially get extra attack at level two! Given the wording of this feature, you could even re-use it against different attacks until you eventually hit, even from the same creature as part of a multi-attack feature. That's actually mathematically better than extra attack, since a miss lets you make another attack if there are multiple creatures to trigger the reaction.
My point was adding the Int modifier on top of damage is not better than a second attack.
The int modifier absolutely is better when you consider that Monster Hunters are expected to do at least 2 attacks at level 5 every single round. Adding Int to Attack and Damage Rolls means that those 2 attacks will effectively never miss. That’s a perfectly fine trade even if you don’t try to optimize by using a heavy crossbow. Using longbow vs Heavy Crossbow build it’s essentially even but adding int is much more accurate: 3d8 + 12 (25.5 at +9) vs 2d10 + 14 (25 at +12).
If you do try to optimize using their new thrown weapons feat, it’s not even close: 5d4 + 41 (53.5 at +10). With extra attack instead it’d just be 6d4 + 32 (47 at +7).