I am aware that this have been a topic long discussed in the community and lots of people want as a core class feature, but I believe there are cons that come with pros of implementing a homebrew idea.
If the Battle Master's maneuvers become a core feature, this does increase the Fighter class's versatility, combat and social utility, and DPR while fulfilling the versatile and tactical warrior MARKETED theme of the class. For example, they will be able to choose whether they want to increase their defense with Evasive Footwork or Parry, aid allies with Commander's Strike or Maneuvering Attack, or hinder enemies with Disarming Strike or Trip Attack. Sounds very cool and tactical, and the Battle Master doesn't need to be undermined as the superiority dice start as d6's and can be only be increased with the Battle Master subclass. It is a shame that it didn't became a core things in 5e's playtest in 2014 (D&D Next) and 2024 (One D&D).
However, this ideas comes with a few set-backs when implementing this idea in CURRENT 2014 and 2024 5e-D&D. Especially if there are is another Fighter who is playing the Battle Master subclass. Firstly, it buffs subclass that already uses resources like the Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer and Psi Warrior thus also not balancing them with the weaker subclasses. Additionally, it degrades the uniqueness and mystique of the Battle Master, and (if given to ALL martials) degrade the feel and theming of the Fighter class.
So, could you please share your thoughts for this homebrew idea that you may help those parties considering to implement this homebrew?
I compromise I'd suggest to people is just giving all your martial characters the Martial Adept feat for free - including those playing a Battlemaster.
That does sound like a good compromise. One thing I would like to do with that feat is to give up to 3 dice instead of 1that way players would get more enjoyment out of the feat.
I also would like to preference that my post was speaking on this topic from a game design perspective, and I want to open it up for discussion that I may help young and old DM when addressing Martial player wants and/or the Martial-Caster divide at their tables.
If you have martial players that want to play like a spellcaster, consider allowing spellcasters to reflavour their spells as weapon attacks. Hold Person can be wrapping a target in a whip, fire ball can be throwing a bomb, tidal wave can be hurling a boulder, eldritch blast can be a magical bow etc...
In general "do-it-all" characters are bad for the game, this is a social-cooperative game so it is deliberate that different classes can do different things to promote cooperation between them.
Alternatively, hand out tons of cool weapons and armour to the martials, there's lots of HB stuff and even published stuff around that could be handed out. TBH lots of it is much cooler than maneuvers too.
The suggestion, for quite some time, has been to remove battlemasters and give their maneuvers to every Fighter as a core feature. Basically, every fighter would be a battlemaster and be able to choose a subclass. That's what they should have done in 5e24 instead of adding weapon masteries.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
The suggestion, for quite some time, has been to remove battlemasters and give their maneuvers to every Fighter as a core feature. Basically, every fighter would be a battlemaster and be able to choose a subclass. That's what they should have done in 5e24 instead of adding weapon masteries.
Then what gets removed from the Fighter class to compensate? You could to this an then remove the 2 extra ASI/Feat slots, that Fighters get. But I suspect Fighter players would be more upset at losing extra ASI/Feats than happy at gaining maneuvers.
This has been talked about ad nauseum elsewhere. 2014 fighters needed a buff to bring them up to the power level of other classes. The suggestion with the most support was to simply make the Battlemaster maneuvers available to all fighters regardless of subclass (basically to remove the subclass of battlemaster and absorb their primary schtick into fighters as a core feature).
Instead they fed almost every subclass in the game, muscle milk, then added weapon masteries (that are also available to non-fighters) as their way of balancing things. I, and others, have argued that doing so has actually made things even more unbalanced than it was before.
There are a dozen or more other threads throughout this forum on that very topic, and a dozen more that point out that Rogues now make better fighters, than fighters do (but again, that's getting off topic and is better discussed in those other threads).
In this topic, I was simply answering the question posted above mine asking what would happen to Battlemasters if their maneuvers were given to all fighters.
There are a dozen or more other threads throughout this forum on that very topic, and a dozen more that point out that Rogues now make better fighters, than fighters do (but again, that's getting off topic and is better discussed in those other threads).
I think you might be onto something HarmAssassin. If the Fighter class is meant to be the tactical martial, then why does the rogue have abilities that make them more tactical than the fighter?
In Ahero's video on "Why DnD Martials Suck" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1rb9kFFbkA), he says Martial classes need features that scale with level and reflect the class's core playstyle. For example, Barbarians should bulldoze through enemies while fighters should creating weakness which they and other martials can capitalize on. So when you have Rogues doing more things to afflict an enemy by using Cunning Strikes while using Weapon Masteries (something all martials have) you have a class that is stealing another classes intended core playstyle.
Yet again, adding to the list of reasons for adding Battle Master's maneuvers as a core Fighter class feature. A list that is balanced out for the growing list of reasons against such as homebrew (see AgileMind and Maruntoryx's concerns).
Fighters aren't the tactical ones, though. They are experts in using weapons & armour which is represented by their additional feat-slots so they can collect the most weapon / defense feats the fastest.
One could certainly redesign Fighter to be more of a support class, rather than a DPR class if you want a "tactical" martial. But it's always a trade-off which is made explicit in the 2024 Rogue - to impose conditions, you sacrifice damage.
OR you could make all Maneuvers cost a BA, similar to how Smites work, and basically make them the short-rest version of a paladin, where they get weaker effects but they recharge on a SR so can be used more often. And again take away the extra feats and replace them with Maneuvers and some degree of scaling of those maneuvers.
Fighter is kind of in the Ranger boat, where their core identity is pretty fuzzy, and different factions of fans want different things, and you'll never make everyone happy until the whole class is just a "choose-your-own-adventure" mush.
Fighters aren't the tactical ones, though. They are experts in using weapons & armour which is represented by their additional feat-slots so they can collect the most weapon / defense feats the fastest.
One could certainly redesign Fighter to be more of a support class, rather than a DPR class if you want a "tactical" martial. But it's always a trade-off which is made explicit in the 2024 Rogue - to impose conditions, you sacrifice damage.
I certainly agree that Fighter shouldn't be the DPR class, and I understand why Rogue should be condition afflicter. Barbarian and Rogues is built and marketed at the DPR class, hence the changes 2024-Barbarian's Brutal Strike, and 2024-Rogue's Cunning Strike.
So if Fighters are experts in using weapons & armour - having proficiency in all armour, shields, and martial and simple weapons, the highest number of ASI / Feats available, and (as of 2024) the highest number of Weapon Masteries - what should be a their identify? In which way should a Fighter support their team?
To me this looks like the Fighter using they above qualities and knightly scholarship in arcana, history, persuasion or religion to assert battlefield control. However, this does has some overlap with Paladin with their various auras and proficiency in religion.
On an unrelated note: based on the flow of this discussion, I guess this is why Laserlama's Fighter class works with combat maneuvers (known as "Combat Exploits") works as a core feature. The goat designed their Fighter class and its subclasses around that feature.
Again I would like to preference that it is okay for fighter's to have Battle Master's features as a core feature if your table is cool with it. This discussion is talking about the Battle Master's Maneuvers as a core Fighter feature as a standard across all tables.
I dislike this idea as it detracts from what makes the Battlemaster special. I recently played a basic human Champion fighter in a group with a druid, bard, rogue, ranger and monk/sorcerer and rarely felt like I wasn't contributing equally in our battles. I had to think outside the box a bit and rely on some magic items to cover my movement and range deficits but all in all the "weakest" fighter class did quite well, at least until 14th level when we ended it.
Fighters aren't the tactical ones, though. They are experts in using weapons & armour which is represented by their additional feat-slots so they can collect the most weapon / defense feats the fastest.
One could certainly redesign Fighter to be more of a support class, rather than a DPR class if you want a "tactical" martial. But it's always a trade-off which is made explicit in the 2024 Rogue - to impose conditions, you sacrifice damage.
I certainly agree that Fighter shouldn't be the DPR class, and I understand why Rogue should be condition afflicter. Barbarian and Rogues is built and marketed at the DPR class, hence the changes 2024-Barbarian's Brutal Strike, and 2024-Rogue's Cunning Strike.
So if Fighters are experts in using weapons & armour - having proficiency in all armour, shields, and martial and simple weapons, the highest number of ASI / Feats available, and (as of 2024) the highest number of Weapon Masteries - what should be a their identify? In which way should a Fighter support their team?
To me this looks like the Fighter using they above qualities and knightly scholarship in arcana, history, persuasion or religion to assert battlefield control. However, this does has some overlap with Paladin with their various auras and proficiency in religion.
If we were to redesign the Fighter as a support class, rather than DPR these would be my suggested major changes:
1) remove 11th and 20th level extra attacks - extra attacks is DPR focus, and something must be sacrificed to give a class new strong abilities otherwise it throws off the combat balance.
2) Add a "Tactical Commands" feature, this will represent the Fighter as more of a general-type character rather than a brutal warrior type character. Tactical Commands will by powered by Bonus Actions similar to how many support character types have BA spells, BA heals, or BA support features (e.g. BI). They should have DCs that use Intelligence since we are again treating the fighter as a strategic tactician / general rather than a Fighter.... Actually, why I don't frame this up as a completely separate class rather than as a new version of the Fighter since it's focus will no longer be on actual Fighting.
Your training with weapons allows you to use the mastery properties of three kinds of Simple or Martial weapons of your choice. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can practice weapon drills and change one of those weapon choices.
When you reach certain Commander levels, you gain the ability to use the mastery properties of more kinds of weapons, as shown in the Weapon Mastery column of the Commander Features table. (i.e. 3 at 1st level, 4 at 5th level, 5 at 11th level, 6 at 17th level)
Level 1 : Combat Tactics.
You gain a number of Tactic Points equal to your Intelligence modifier, you regain your Tactic Points when you finish a Short or Long rest. You can expend these points to power your Combat Tactics. You learn 3 Tactics from the list below, you learn one additional Tactic when you reach 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level.
Tactic DC = 8 + your Intelligence modifier + your Proficiency Bonus
Reposition. As a bonus action you expend 1 Tactic Point and you command one willing creature within 60 ft of you to move to a new strategic location, the target can immediately move up to their Speed.
Double Team. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can immediately use a bonus action and 1 Tactic Point, to command one friendly creature within 5ft of the creature you hit to use their Reaction to make 1 attack against the same target.
Shield Wall.As a bonus action you expend 1 Tactic Point, to organize your allies into a defensive formation. Each friendly creature within 15 ft of you that is holding a shield gains an additional +2 bonus to their AC until the start of your next turn.
Goad. As a bonus action you expend 1 Tactic Point, and choose one creature within 15 feet of you, the target must succeed on a Wisdom save vs your Tactic DC or have disadvantage on attacks against creatures other than you until the start of your next turn.
Unbalance. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can immediately use 1 Tactic Point, to give it disadvantage on Strength saving throws until the start of its next turn. If an ally is within 5ft of the target they can use their Reaction to attempt to Grapple or Shove the target.
Disorient. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can immediately use 1 Tactic Point, to give it disadvantage on the next Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma saving throw it makes before the end of your next turn.
Charge. As a bonus action, you can spend 1 Tactic Point to increase the move speed of each ally creature within 15 ft of you by 10 ft until the start of your next turn.
Lead the Climb. You can take 1 minute to spend 1 Tactic Point to grant yourself or one creature that can understand you a Climbing speed equal to their walking speed for the next 10 minutes.
Lead the Swim. You can take 1 minute to spend 1 Tactic Point to grant yourself or one creature that can understand you a Swim speed equal to their walking speed for the next 10 minutes.
Hit the Deck. As a Reaction to you or an allied creature within 15 ft of you being targeted by a Ranged attack, you can spend 1 Tactic Point to cause the target of the Ranged attack to use their Reaction to immediately fall prone, causing the triggering attack to have disadvantage. If they fall prone, they can crawl at their normal walking speed until the end of their next turn.
Retreat. As a bonus action you can spend 1 Tactic Point to grant each ally creature within 15 ft of you the benefits of the Disengage action, these benefits last until the start of your next turn.
Inspire Confidence. As long as you are not frightened, you can use a bonus action to spend 1 Tactic Point to end the frightened condition on one creature of your choice within 60 ft of you.
Inspire Trust. As long as you are not charmed, you can use a bonus action to spend 1 Tactic Point to end the charmed condition on one creature of your choice within 60 ft of you.
Medic. As a Bonus Action, you can spend 1 Tactic Point to patch up a nearby comrade. One creature within 5 ft of you (which can be yourself) regains hit points equal to 1d4 + your Intelligence modifier.
Level 2: Fighting Style
You have honed your martial prowess and gain a Fighting Style feat of your choice.
Whenever you gain a Commander level, you can replace the feat you chose with a different Fighting Style feat.
Level 2: Tactical Thinking
You have a mind for tactics on and off the battlefield. When you fail an ability check, you can expend one Tactic Point to push yourself toward success. You add a bonus to this ability check equal to your Intelligence modifier potentially turning it into a success.
Level 3: Commander Subclass (Use any Fighter Subclass, bonuses at 7th, 10th, 15th, 18th level)
You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Level 6: Mobile Tactician
Whenever you use a Combat Tactic you gain temporary hit points equal to your Intelligence modifier, and can move up to half your speed immediately before of after using the Tactic.
Level 9: Tactical Fighting
When you attack with a weapon whose mastery property you can use, you can replace that property with the Push, Sap, or Slow property for that attack.
Level 9: Prepared for Trouble
You gain proficiency in one saving throw of your choice, you can change your choice each time you finish a Long Rest, or you can spend 1 Tactics Point as a bonus action to change your choice.
Level 11: Exploit Weakness
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack or unarmed strike, you can spend 1 Tactic Point to deal additional damage equal to your Proficiency Bonus. You can only use this ability once per turn.
Level 11: Combo Tactics
When you use your Bonus Action to use a Combat Tactic, you can make 1 weapon attack or unarmed strike as part of that Bonus Action.
Level 13: Studied Attacks
You study your opponents and learn from each attack you make. If you make an attack roll against a creature and miss, you have Advantage on your next attack roll against that creature before the end of your next turn.
Level 14: Trained Squad
You allies no longer need to use their Reaction to respond to your Combat Tactics.
Level 19: Epic Boon
Level 20: Tactical Genius
You regain all your Tactic Points when you roll initiative, and you regain one Tactic Point at the start of each of your turns as long aren't incapacitated.
You can spend 10 minutes training up to 10 willing creatures. They each gain a +10 ft bonus to their move speed and jump distance until their next short or long rest. When this benefit ends they suffer 1 point of exhaustion. You also gain these benefits but you do not suffer the exhaustion when they end.
Level 7: Endurance Training
Your hit dice from your Commander class increase to a d12, and you gain additional maximum point points equal to your Commander level. Whenever you finish a short rest you reduce your exhaustion level by 1.
Level 10: Arm Day
You can 10 minutes training up to 10 willing creatures. They each gain a +2 bonus to damage dealt with melee weapons and unarmed strikes, until their next short or long rest. When this benefit ends they suffer 1 point of exhaustion. You also gain these benefits but you do not suffer the exhaustion when they end.
Level 15: Push Through The Pain
When you or a friendly creature within 15 feet of starts their turn with fewer than half their maximum hit points, you can use your Reaction to spend 1 Tactic Point to grant them resistance to all damage for 1 round.
Level 18: Childen's Play Things!
You can use all one-handed and two-handed melee weapons in one hand, and can treat them as they were Light weapons for the purposes of two-weapon fighting. When you attack with a weapon whose mastery property you can use, you can replace that property with the Nick, Cleave, or Graze property for that attack.
Combat Engineer
Level 3: Tools
You gain proficiency in Carpenter's Tools, Smith's Tools and Tinker's Tools.
Level 3: Entrench
You can use your Action to create makeshift cover around yourself. You quickly make a barricade in a 5ft emanation around yourself that provides half cover to each creature within it from attacks that original outside of it. This barricade has only 1 hit point and is easily destroyed if it takes any damage, or if a creature uses their action to succeed on a DC 10 Atheltics check to destroy it.
Level 7: Bear Traps
As a bonus action, you can throw a bear trap beneath the feet of one creature within 15 ft of you. The target takes 2d6 piercing damage and makes a Dexterity saving throw against your Tactics DC, on a failure their move speed is reduced to 0 until they or another creature uses an action to free them, on a success their move speed is halved until the end of their next turn. Creatures that are Huge or larger automatically succeed on the save.
Level 10: Instant Ladder
As an action, you use a set of tools you are proficient in to create a sturdy ladder up to 50 feet long capable of holding the weight of one Large or smaller creature. You can spend 1 hour to create a bridge or ramp up to 100 feet long x 30 feet high capable of holding the same weight.
Level 15: Arcane Snare
When you use your Bear Trap ability, you can instead throw an Arcane Snare which deals 2d6 psychic damage, and forces the target to make a Charisma saving throw, and on a failure they are incapable of teleporting, turning invisible or concentrating on a spell until they spend an action to free themselves.
Level 18: Builder Bot
Whenever you finish a short or long rest you can create a magically animated Medium sized construct which shares your initiative and follows your commands. The construct has 40 ft walking speed, hit points equal to your own, 20 AC, and Ability Scores equal to your Intelligence score. You can use your Bonus Action to command the construct, which cannot attack but can use your Combat Tactics, Entrench, Bear Trap, Instant Ladder or Arcane Snare, it shares your pool of Tactic Points. If you don't command the construct it does its best to avoid danger. You can only have one Builder Bot at a time.
Spotter
Level 3: Sharp Eyes
You gain proficiency and expertise in Perception.
Level 3: Spot Target
You can use your Bonus Action, to designate choose one friendly creature and one hostile creature that you can see within 120 ft of you. The friendly creature has advantage on the next attack roll it makes against the hostile creature that must be before the start of your next turn, and the hostile creature gains no benefits from 1/2 or 3/4 cover or obscurement until the end of your next turn.
Level 7: Shooting Space
When your allies attempt to attack a creature within 5ft of you, you do not cause the target to have cover. When you attempt to attack a creature within 5ft of an ally the ally does not cause the target to have cover.
Level 7: Elemental Exchange
When a friendly creature other than you, within 5 ft of you casts a spell that deals acid, fire, cold, lightning, or thunder damage you can use you Reaction and spend 1 Tactic Point to infuse your weapons with that energy. Your weapon attacks deal an extra 1d4 damage of that type until the end of your next turn.
Level 10: Constant Spotter
When you use your Spot Target ability the friendly creature has advantage on all attacks against the target until the end of your next turn.
Level 15: Guide Strike
When a creature you can see within 60 feet of you misses with an attack, you can use your Reaction to allow them to reroll it potentially turning it into a hit.
Level 18: Sunder Defenses
When you hit a creature with an attack, you can spend 2 Tactic Points to reveal their weakest point, all attacks agains the target have advantage until the start of your next turn.
I love how this turned into a thread for a awesome homebrew class
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Just Your Friendly Animated Armor :3
I love birds I love birds I love birds I love birds I love birds love birds I love birds I love birds I love birds I love birds love birds I love birds I love birds I love birds I love birds
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I am aware that this have been a topic long discussed in the community and lots of people want as a core class feature, but I believe there are cons that come with pros of implementing a homebrew idea.
If the Battle Master's maneuvers become a core feature, this does increase the Fighter class's versatility, combat and social utility, and DPR while fulfilling the versatile and tactical warrior MARKETED theme of the class. For example, they will be able to choose whether they want to increase their defense with Evasive Footwork or Parry, aid allies with Commander's Strike or Maneuvering Attack, or hinder enemies with Disarming Strike or Trip Attack. Sounds very cool and tactical, and the Battle Master doesn't need to be undermined as the superiority dice start as d6's and can be only be increased with the Battle Master subclass. It is a shame that it didn't became a core things in 5e's playtest in 2014 (D&D Next) and 2024 (One D&D).
However, this ideas comes with a few set-backs when implementing this idea in CURRENT 2014 and 2024 5e-D&D. Especially if there are is another Fighter who is playing the Battle Master subclass. Firstly, it buffs subclass that already uses resources like the Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer and Psi Warrior thus also not balancing them with the weaker subclasses. Additionally, it degrades the uniqueness and mystique of the Battle Master, and (if given to ALL martials) degrade the feel and theming of the Fighter class.
So, could you please share your thoughts for this homebrew idea that you may help those parties considering to implement this homebrew?
I compromise I'd suggest to people is just giving all your martial characters the Martial Adept feat for free - including those playing a Battlemaster.
That does sound like a good compromise. One thing I would like to do with that feat is to give up to 3 dice instead of 1that way players would get more enjoyment out of the feat.
I also would like to preference that my post was speaking on this topic from a game design perspective, and I want to open it up for discussion that I may help young and old DM when addressing Martial player wants and/or the Martial-Caster divide at their tables.
If you have martial players that want to play like a spellcaster, consider allowing spellcasters to reflavour their spells as weapon attacks. Hold Person can be wrapping a target in a whip, fire ball can be throwing a bomb, tidal wave can be hurling a boulder, eldritch blast can be a magical bow etc...
In general "do-it-all" characters are bad for the game, this is a social-cooperative game so it is deliberate that different classes can do different things to promote cooperation between them.
Alternatively, hand out tons of cool weapons and armour to the martials, there's lots of HB stuff and even published stuff around that could be handed out. TBH lots of it is much cooler than maneuvers too.
If you did this, what would be the point of Battle Masters?
The suggestion, for quite some time, has been to remove battlemasters and give their maneuvers to every Fighter as a core feature. Basically, every fighter would be a battlemaster and be able to choose a subclass. That's what they should have done in 5e24 instead of adding weapon masteries.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Then what gets removed from the Fighter class to compensate? You could to this an then remove the 2 extra ASI/Feat slots, that Fighters get. But I suspect Fighter players would be more upset at losing extra ASI/Feats than happy at gaining maneuvers.
This has been talked about ad nauseum elsewhere. 2014 fighters needed a buff to bring them up to the power level of other classes. The suggestion with the most support was to simply make the Battlemaster maneuvers available to all fighters regardless of subclass (basically to remove the subclass of battlemaster and absorb their primary schtick into fighters as a core feature).
Instead they fed almost every subclass in the game, muscle milk, then added weapon masteries (that are also available to non-fighters) as their way of balancing things. I, and others, have argued that doing so has actually made things even more unbalanced than it was before.
There are a dozen or more other threads throughout this forum on that very topic, and a dozen more that point out that Rogues now make better fighters, than fighters do (but again, that's getting off topic and is better discussed in those other threads).
In this topic, I was simply answering the question posted above mine asking what would happen to Battlemasters if their maneuvers were given to all fighters.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
I think you might be onto something HarmAssassin. If the Fighter class is meant to be the tactical martial, then why does the rogue have abilities that make them more tactical than the fighter?
In Ahero's video on "Why DnD Martials Suck" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1rb9kFFbkA), he says Martial classes need features that scale with level and reflect the class's core playstyle. For example, Barbarians should bulldoze through enemies while fighters should creating weakness which they and other martials can capitalize on. So when you have Rogues doing more things to afflict an enemy by using Cunning Strikes while using Weapon Masteries (something all martials have) you have a class that is stealing another classes intended core playstyle.
Yet again, adding to the list of reasons for adding Battle Master's maneuvers as a core Fighter class feature. A list that is balanced out for the growing list of reasons against such as homebrew (see AgileMind and Maruntoryx's concerns).
Fighters aren't the tactical ones, though. They are experts in using weapons & armour which is represented by their additional feat-slots so they can collect the most weapon / defense feats the fastest.
One could certainly redesign Fighter to be more of a support class, rather than a DPR class if you want a "tactical" martial. But it's always a trade-off which is made explicit in the 2024 Rogue - to impose conditions, you sacrifice damage.
OR you could make all Maneuvers cost a BA, similar to how Smites work, and basically make them the short-rest version of a paladin, where they get weaker effects but they recharge on a SR so can be used more often. And again take away the extra feats and replace them with Maneuvers and some degree of scaling of those maneuvers.
Fighter is kind of in the Ranger boat, where their core identity is pretty fuzzy, and different factions of fans want different things, and you'll never make everyone happy until the whole class is just a "choose-your-own-adventure" mush.
What I would do to see the early 5e playtest for the Fighter (where this was actually a thing) be fully realised…
Yes but less of an arsenal and significantly weaker so Battlemaster isn't entirely useless.
"I have advantage on dex saving throws what could go wrong?"
I certainly agree that Fighter shouldn't be the DPR class, and I understand why Rogue should be condition afflicter. Barbarian and Rogues is built and marketed at the DPR class, hence the changes 2024-Barbarian's Brutal Strike, and 2024-Rogue's Cunning Strike.
So if Fighters are experts in using weapons & armour - having proficiency in all armour, shields, and martial and simple weapons, the highest number of ASI / Feats available, and (as of 2024) the highest number of Weapon Masteries - what should be a their identify? In which way should a Fighter support their team?
To me this looks like the Fighter using they above qualities and knightly scholarship in arcana, history, persuasion or religion to assert battlefield control. However, this does has some overlap with Paladin with their various auras and proficiency in religion.
On an unrelated note: based on the flow of this discussion, I guess this is why Laserlama's Fighter class works with combat maneuvers (known as "Combat Exploits") works as a core feature. The goat designed their Fighter class and its subclasses around that feature.
Again I would like to preference that it is okay for fighter's to have Battle Master's features as a core feature if your table is cool with it. This discussion is talking about the Battle Master's Maneuvers as a core Fighter feature as a standard across all tables.
I dislike this idea as it detracts from what makes the Battlemaster special. I recently played a basic human Champion fighter in a group with a druid, bard, rogue, ranger and monk/sorcerer and rarely felt like I wasn't contributing equally in our battles. I had to think outside the box a bit and rely on some magic items to cover my movement and range deficits but all in all the "weakest" fighter class did quite well, at least until 14th level when we ended it.
If we were to redesign the Fighter as a support class, rather than DPR these would be my suggested major changes:
1) remove 11th and 20th level extra attacks - extra attacks is DPR focus, and something must be sacrificed to give a class new strong abilities otherwise it throws off the combat balance.
2) Add a "Tactical Commands" feature, this will represent the Fighter as more of a general-type character rather than a brutal warrior type character. Tactical Commands will by powered by Bonus Actions similar to how many support character types have BA spells, BA heals, or BA support features (e.g. BI). They should have DCs that use Intelligence since we are again treating the fighter as a strategic tactician / general rather than a Fighter.... Actually, why I don't frame this up as a completely separate class rather than as a new version of the Fighter since it's focus will no longer be on actual Fighting.
Class : Commander
Level 1: Weapon Mastery
Your training with weapons allows you to use the mastery properties of three kinds of Simple or Martial weapons of your choice. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can practice weapon drills and change one of those weapon choices.
When you reach certain Commander levels, you gain the ability to use the mastery properties of more kinds of weapons, as shown in the Weapon Mastery column of the Commander Features table. (i.e. 3 at 1st level, 4 at 5th level, 5 at 11th level, 6 at 17th level)
Level 1 : Combat Tactics.
You gain a number of Tactic Points equal to your Intelligence modifier, you regain your Tactic Points when you finish a Short or Long rest. You can expend these points to power your Combat Tactics. You learn 3 Tactics from the list below, you learn one additional Tactic when you reach 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level.
Tactic DC = 8 + your Intelligence modifier + your Proficiency Bonus
Reposition. As a bonus action you expend 1 Tactic Point and you command one willing creature within 60 ft of you to move to a new strategic location, the target can immediately move up to their Speed.
Double Team. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can immediately use a bonus action and 1 Tactic Point, to command one friendly creature within 5ft of the creature you hit to use their Reaction to make 1 attack against the same target.
Shield Wall. As a bonus action you expend 1 Tactic Point, to organize your allies into a defensive formation. Each friendly creature within 15 ft of you that is holding a shield gains an additional +2 bonus to their AC until the start of your next turn.
Goad. As a bonus action you expend 1 Tactic Point, and choose one creature within 15 feet of you, the target must succeed on a Wisdom save vs your Tactic DC or have disadvantage on attacks against creatures other than you until the start of your next turn.
Unbalance. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can immediately use 1 Tactic Point, to give it disadvantage on Strength saving throws until the start of its next turn. If an ally is within 5ft of the target they can use their Reaction to attempt to Grapple or Shove the target.
Disorient. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can immediately use 1 Tactic Point, to give it disadvantage on the next Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma saving throw it makes before the end of your next turn.
Charge. As a bonus action, you can spend 1 Tactic Point to increase the move speed of each ally creature within 15 ft of you by 10 ft until the start of your next turn.
Lead the Climb. You can take 1 minute to spend 1 Tactic Point to grant yourself or one creature that can understand you a Climbing speed equal to their walking speed for the next 10 minutes.
Lead the Swim. You can take 1 minute to spend 1 Tactic Point to grant yourself or one creature that can understand you a Swim speed equal to their walking speed for the next 10 minutes.
Hit the Deck. As a Reaction to you or an allied creature within 15 ft of you being targeted by a Ranged attack, you can spend 1 Tactic Point to cause the target of the Ranged attack to use their Reaction to immediately fall prone, causing the triggering attack to have disadvantage. If they fall prone, they can crawl at their normal walking speed until the end of their next turn.
Retreat. As a bonus action you can spend 1 Tactic Point to grant each ally creature within 15 ft of you the benefits of the Disengage action, these benefits last until the start of your next turn.
Inspire Confidence. As long as you are not frightened, you can use a bonus action to spend 1 Tactic Point to end the frightened condition on one creature of your choice within 60 ft of you.
Inspire Trust. As long as you are not charmed, you can use a bonus action to spend 1 Tactic Point to end the charmed condition on one creature of your choice within 60 ft of you.
Medic. As a Bonus Action, you can spend 1 Tactic Point to patch up a nearby comrade. One creature within 5 ft of you (which can be yourself) regains hit points equal to 1d4 + your Intelligence modifier.
Level 2: Fighting Style
You have honed your martial prowess and gain a Fighting Style feat of your choice.
Whenever you gain a Commander level, you can replace the feat you chose with a different Fighting Style feat.
Level 2: Tactical Thinking
You have a mind for tactics on and off the battlefield. When you fail an ability check, you can expend one Tactic Point to push yourself toward success. You add a bonus to this ability check equal to your Intelligence modifier potentially turning it into a success.
Level 3: Commander Subclass (Use any Fighter Subclass, bonuses at 7th, 10th, 15th, 18th level)
Level 4: Ability Score Improvement (also at 6th, 8th, 12th, 14th, 16th level)
Level 5: Extra Attack
You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Level 6: Mobile Tactician
Whenever you use a Combat Tactic you gain temporary hit points equal to your Intelligence modifier, and can move up to half your speed immediately before of after using the Tactic.
Level 9: Tactical Fighting
When you attack with a weapon whose mastery property you can use, you can replace that property with the Push, Sap, or Slow property for that attack.
Level 9: Prepared for Trouble
You gain proficiency in one saving throw of your choice, you can change your choice each time you finish a Long Rest, or you can spend 1 Tactics Point as a bonus action to change your choice.
Level 11: Exploit Weakness
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack or unarmed strike, you can spend 1 Tactic Point to deal additional damage equal to your Proficiency Bonus. You can only use this ability once per turn.
Level 11: Combo Tactics
When you use your Bonus Action to use a Combat Tactic, you can make 1 weapon attack or unarmed strike as part of that Bonus Action.
Level 13: Studied Attacks
You study your opponents and learn from each attack you make. If you make an attack roll against a creature and miss, you have Advantage on your next attack roll against that creature before the end of your next turn.
Level 14: Trained Squad
You allies no longer need to use their Reaction to respond to your Combat Tactics.
Level 19: Epic Boon
Level 20: Tactical Genius
You regain all your Tactic Points when you roll initiative, and you regain one Tactic Point at the start of each of your turns as long aren't incapacitated.
Love this rework. Job well done.
Subclass for Commander:
Trainer
Level 3: Leg Day
You can spend 10 minutes training up to 10 willing creatures. They each gain a +10 ft bonus to their move speed and jump distance until their next short or long rest. When this benefit ends they suffer 1 point of exhaustion. You also gain these benefits but you do not suffer the exhaustion when they end.
Level 7: Endurance Training
Your hit dice from your Commander class increase to a d12, and you gain additional maximum point points equal to your Commander level. Whenever you finish a short rest you reduce your exhaustion level by 1.
Level 10: Arm Day
You can 10 minutes training up to 10 willing creatures. They each gain a +2 bonus to damage dealt with melee weapons and unarmed strikes, until their next short or long rest. When this benefit ends they suffer 1 point of exhaustion. You also gain these benefits but you do not suffer the exhaustion when they end.
Level 15: Push Through The Pain
When you or a friendly creature within 15 feet of starts their turn with fewer than half their maximum hit points, you can use your Reaction to spend 1 Tactic Point to grant them resistance to all damage for 1 round.
Level 18: Childen's Play Things!
You can use all one-handed and two-handed melee weapons in one hand, and can treat them as they were Light weapons for the purposes of two-weapon fighting. When you attack with a weapon whose mastery property you can use, you can replace that property with the Nick, Cleave, or Graze property for that attack.
Combat Engineer
Level 3: Tools
You gain proficiency in Carpenter's Tools, Smith's Tools and Tinker's Tools.
Level 3: Entrench
You can use your Action to create makeshift cover around yourself. You quickly make a barricade in a 5ft emanation around yourself that provides half cover to each creature within it from attacks that original outside of it. This barricade has only 1 hit point and is easily destroyed if it takes any damage, or if a creature uses their action to succeed on a DC 10 Atheltics check to destroy it.
Level 7: Bear Traps
As a bonus action, you can throw a bear trap beneath the feet of one creature within 15 ft of you. The target takes 2d6 piercing damage and makes a Dexterity saving throw against your Tactics DC, on a failure their move speed is reduced to 0 until they or another creature uses an action to free them, on a success their move speed is halved until the end of their next turn. Creatures that are Huge or larger automatically succeed on the save.
Level 10: Instant Ladder
As an action, you use a set of tools you are proficient in to create a sturdy ladder up to 50 feet long capable of holding the weight of one Large or smaller creature. You can spend 1 hour to create a bridge or ramp up to 100 feet long x 30 feet high capable of holding the same weight.
Level 15: Arcane Snare
When you use your Bear Trap ability, you can instead throw an Arcane Snare which deals 2d6 psychic damage, and forces the target to make a Charisma saving throw, and on a failure they are incapable of teleporting, turning invisible or concentrating on a spell until they spend an action to free themselves.
Level 18: Builder Bot
Whenever you finish a short or long rest you can create a magically animated Medium sized construct which shares your initiative and follows your commands. The construct has 40 ft walking speed, hit points equal to your own, 20 AC, and Ability Scores equal to your Intelligence score. You can use your Bonus Action to command the construct, which cannot attack but can use your Combat Tactics, Entrench, Bear Trap, Instant Ladder or Arcane Snare, it shares your pool of Tactic Points. If you don't command the construct it does its best to avoid danger. You can only have one Builder Bot at a time.
Spotter
Level 3: Sharp Eyes
You gain proficiency and expertise in Perception.
Level 3: Spot Target
You can use your Bonus Action, to designate choose one friendly creature and one hostile creature that you can see within 120 ft of you. The friendly creature has advantage on the next attack roll it makes against the hostile creature that must be before the start of your next turn, and the hostile creature gains no benefits from 1/2 or 3/4 cover or obscurement until the end of your next turn.
Level 7: Shooting Space
When your allies attempt to attack a creature within 5ft of you, you do not cause the target to have cover. When you attempt to attack a creature within 5ft of an ally the ally does not cause the target to have cover.
Level 7: Elemental Exchange
When a friendly creature other than you, within 5 ft of you casts a spell that deals acid, fire, cold, lightning, or thunder damage you can use you Reaction and spend 1 Tactic Point to infuse your weapons with that energy. Your weapon attacks deal an extra 1d4 damage of that type until the end of your next turn.
Level 10: Constant Spotter
When you use your Spot Target ability the friendly creature has advantage on all attacks against the target until the end of your next turn.
Level 15: Guide Strike
When a creature you can see within 60 feet of you misses with an attack, you can use your Reaction to allow them to reroll it potentially turning it into a hit.
Level 18: Sunder Defenses
When you hit a creature with an attack, you can spend 2 Tactic Points to reveal their weakest point, all attacks agains the target have advantage until the start of your next turn.
I love how this turned into a thread for a awesome homebrew class
Just Your Friendly Animated Armor :3
I love birds I love birds I love birds I love birds I love birds love birds I love birds I love birds I love birds I love birds love birds I love birds I love birds I love birds I love birds