Just hoping for some balance feedback on this subclass. I like the aggressive focus, and I'm hoping to keep the general mechanics. Not sure if the numbers are balanced, though, or if the spells are appropriate. Thanks!
I would just have a rethink about the level 7 ability as I have had many paladin players only use their spell slots to bring smites down onto the enemies so they will effectively have this on tap. Maybe limit to regaining spell slots no higher than level 2 if used on divine smites?
I think Purifying Blade is too powerful not to have a time limit on it. Most Channel Divinity powers last either for a duration or else are instant. it's pretty easy to have a +3 CHA modifier at level 3 and I think that is just too powerful for this ability. I would give it a 1 minute duration.
Relentless Purification is an interesting feature, but the level 7 ability for paladins is generally an aura. That doesn't really apply here. What if you were to make Relentless Purification a Channel Divinity effect? That way it would scale in power with your level, it could be used on demand, and it would just reset whenever your Channel Divinity resets?
So then what do we do with Shroud of Radiance? Again, it's awfully powerful for something you get at level 3 and as I said before, I like to see divinity powers scale with the paladin's level. Furthermore, if you combo it with the level 15 Zealous Vitality, it becomes extremely powerful--basically free healing that has a good chance of out-healing the damage you take in combat. That doesn't sit well with me, but we can come back to it in a bit. I do think that Shroud of Radiance is well-suited for an aura, which means maybe it should be your aura at level 7. But that would mean it is always on and that would make it even more powerful, so that's no good. What if you kept the theme, but tweaked the application of it? I imagine it working similar to Hellish Rebuke.
Starting at 7th level, you are surrounded by a holy aura. When you or an ally take damage from a creature within this aura, you may use your reaction to point your finger, and the creature that damaged you is momentarily surrounded by radiant sunlight. The creature must make a Dexterity saving throw. It takes 2d10 radiant damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.
Disclaimer I'm not a professional game designer so take this with a grain of salt.
Opening paragraph, spelling “force of their charisma”.
Add tenets of the oath when you get a chance, the tenets give a lot of flavour for the type of paladin you are playing.
Purifying Blade – This is a little weird as a channel divinity because it doesn’t have a specified duration. This essentially allows you to use it once, then never use it again outside of getting a better weapon. I would probably limit the ability to melee weapons given the opening paragraph. The wording is a little unclear as well, second line should read “When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls.” If you insist on leaving this as a channel divinity I would probably change the duration to “until you finish a short or long rest”. The last sentence seems like trinket text to me, but if you insist on keeping it I would add in the “must be on the same plane of existence” qualifier.
If you want to up the power level on Purifying Blade I would probably change the duration to 1 minute, and add the ability to change your melee weapon’s damage to radiant for the duration.
Shroud of Radiance – seems fine on the surface, numbers can be adjusted after playtesting.
Oath Spells – change Oath of Vengeance Spells to Oath of the Crusader Spells.
Relentless Purification – I dislike this because of the extra bookkeeping that this requires. I wouldn’t want to track which slots were used for spells and which slots were used for smites. I would probably change this to something similar to the wizard Arcane Recovery but toned down because the paladin is a half caster. e.g. “Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than one quarter your paladin level (rounded up).” (Multiclass text would require the “none of the slots can be 6 level or higher” text.)
Zealous Vitality – Again as written this seems like a lot of extra tracking, I would probably change it to “When you reduce a creature within 5 feet of you to 0 hit points, you gain temporary hit points equal to the radiant damage that was dealt to it.”
Sword of the Gods – I have some issues with the second bullet point. It says; Additionally, during this time you use a bonus action or your reaction—but not both in the same round—to make a melee weapon attack. Reactions require a triggering event, you can’t use one without a trigger. Therefore, the wording would need to follow the structure, when blank blanks, you may blank. I would probably change the ability to; you may use a bonus action to make a melee weapon attack.
If you want to add an additional reaction trigger that would probably push the transformation into the 1 minute duration power level.
First of all, thank you everybody for your feedback! I knew there was some work to be done, and it's super helpful to hear what you guys have to say!
Purifying Blade -- I can definitely see your guys' points about a duration. I was hoping to sort of mimic the pact of the blade's functionality, mostly because pact blades are one of my favorite bits of 5e. With that said, I can see that it doesn't really fit in a Paladin Oath. I'm a little torn on how to modify this. The idea of making it a 1 minute duration and allowing damage to be radiant is interesting, but if your Strength is equal or better (for some reason) than your Charisma, then I feel like it would suffer in terms of usefulness. Maybe I'm missing an easy fix to that specific issue.
Shroud of Radiance -- Aoe Hellish Rebuke? Hell yeah, lol. I like that idea a lot, and I'd like to adhere as much to the Oath formula as possible.
Oath Spells -- Good catch, thanks. Do the spells themselves seem fair? The levels should be the same as other Oaths, but I want to make sure I didn't pick spells that should stay out of an off-caster's arsenal.
Relentless Purification -- So, we've replaced this ability's spot with the hellish aura, since that follows suit with other oaths. That means this ability takes the open Channel Divinity slot. All of you mentioned this, and I agree it needs tweaking either way. I was considering having the ability allow the paladin to expend lay on hands to regain the slots, since that balances and limits the ability, as well as continuing the theme of an aggressive Oath. So, maybe: "Once per day, when you finish a short rest, you may expend 5 points of lay on hands to regain a level one spell slot. For higher level slots, increase the cost by one for every spell level above one. (I'm sure there's a better way to word that). Does this seem like a good compromise here? And, would it outshine Purifying Blade to the point of typically being the better option? I don't want one to be marginalized, given that you can only use one each day.
Zealous Vitality -- Maybe I'm misinterpreting the rules for temp. hit points, but you only gain them if a source would give you more than you already have, right? So, you'd only have to track it if the total temp. hit point gain would be greater than what you have currently?
Sword of the Gods -- Yes, I agree that the wording on the last bit is odd. Mostly, I wasn't sure which action type would better compliment the Paladin's loadout. I'd definitely like to either put a trigger on the reaction, or just make it a bonus action.
Other Bits -- Thanks for the notes on the written bits. I knew this would be a bit rough on the outset, so I'll make a pass to clean it up soon.
Thanks again, guys, and any further input would also be greatly appreciated!
Purifying Blade -- I can definitely see your guys' points about a duration. I was hoping to sort of mimic the pact of the blade's functionality, mostly because pact blades are one of my favorite bits of 5e. With that said, I can see that it doesn't really fit in a Paladin Oath. I'm a little torn on how to modify this. The idea of making it a 1 minute duration and allowing damage to be radiant is interesting, but if your Strength is equal or better (for some reason) than your Charisma, then I feel like it would suffer in terms of usefulness. Maybe I'm missing an easy fix to that specific issue.
The difficulty with making the pact blade work with a paladin vs. making it work with a warlock, is that Warlock's have a patron at level 1, Oath's don't happen until level 3. Unless you are starting the game at a higher level, it is really difficult to ditch strength or dexterity as your main stat, especially when there is not a proper slot to fit it into until level 7. The whole ability might need to be replaced because I am not sure that there is an easy solution.
Oath Spells -- Good catch, thanks. Do the spells themselves seem fair? The levels should be the same as other Oaths, but I want to make sure I didn't pick spells that should stay out of an off-caster's arsenal.
I don't think you should worry too much about the fairness of the spells themselves, if they match the oath from a flavour perspective, and are SRD, then I think that is good. I wouldn't worry too much about balance on the early passes as long as it is in the ballpark.
Zealous Vitality -- Maybe I'm misinterpreting the rules for temp. hit points, but you only gain them if a source would give you more than you already have, right? So, you'd only have to track it if the total temp. hit point gain would be greater than what you have currently?
That is more or less correct, when you gain temp. hit points and already have temp. hit points you choose which pool you want to use; but I was thinking more about how it might interact with an aura that deals radiant damage. This could lead to a lot of triggers of this ability during a round of combat, my proposed fix was closer to the ability that the Long Death monks get, because I thought it would be closer to the flavour of the oath.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subclasses/142023-oath-of-the-crusader
Just hoping for some balance feedback on this subclass. I like the aggressive focus, and I'm hoping to keep the general mechanics. Not sure if the numbers are balanced, though, or if the spells are appropriate. Thanks!
Hey I really like this idea.
I would just have a rethink about the level 7 ability as I have had many paladin players only use their spell slots to bring smites down onto the enemies so they will effectively have this on tap. Maybe limit to regaining spell slots no higher than level 2 if used on divine smites?
I hope that is helpful feedback for you.
I think Purifying Blade is too powerful not to have a time limit on it. Most Channel Divinity powers last either for a duration or else are instant. it's pretty easy to have a +3 CHA modifier at level 3 and I think that is just too powerful for this ability. I would give it a 1 minute duration.
Relentless Purification is an interesting feature, but the level 7 ability for paladins is generally an aura. That doesn't really apply here. What if you were to make Relentless Purification a Channel Divinity effect? That way it would scale in power with your level, it could be used on demand, and it would just reset whenever your Channel Divinity resets?
So then what do we do with Shroud of Radiance? Again, it's awfully powerful for something you get at level 3 and as I said before, I like to see divinity powers scale with the paladin's level. Furthermore, if you combo it with the level 15 Zealous Vitality, it becomes extremely powerful--basically free healing that has a good chance of out-healing the damage you take in combat. That doesn't sit well with me, but we can come back to it in a bit. I do think that Shroud of Radiance is well-suited for an aura, which means maybe it should be your aura at level 7. But that would mean it is always on and that would make it even more powerful, so that's no good. What if you kept the theme, but tweaked the application of it? I imagine it working similar to Hellish Rebuke.
I rather like Sword of the Gods as it is.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Disclaimer I'm not a professional game designer so take this with a grain of salt.
Opening paragraph, spelling “force of their charisma”.
Add tenets of the oath when you get a chance, the tenets give a lot of flavour for the type of paladin you are playing.
Purifying Blade – This is a little weird as a channel divinity because it doesn’t have a specified duration. This essentially allows you to use it once, then never use it again outside of getting a better weapon. I would probably limit the ability to melee weapons given the opening paragraph. The wording is a little unclear as well, second line should read “When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls.” If you insist on leaving this as a channel divinity I would probably change the duration to “until you finish a short or long rest”. The last sentence seems like trinket text to me, but if you insist on keeping it I would add in the “must be on the same plane of existence” qualifier.
If you want to up the power level on Purifying Blade I would probably change the duration to 1 minute, and add the ability to change your melee weapon’s damage to radiant for the duration.
Shroud of Radiance – seems fine on the surface, numbers can be adjusted after playtesting.
Oath Spells – change Oath of Vengeance Spells to Oath of the Crusader Spells.
Relentless Purification – I dislike this because of the extra bookkeeping that this requires. I wouldn’t want to track which slots were used for spells and which slots were used for smites. I would probably change this to something similar to the wizard Arcane Recovery but toned down because the paladin is a half caster. e.g. “Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than one quarter your paladin level (rounded up).” (Multiclass text would require the “none of the slots can be 6 level or higher” text.)
Zealous Vitality – Again as written this seems like a lot of extra tracking, I would probably change it to “When you reduce a creature within 5 feet of you to 0 hit points, you gain temporary hit points equal to the radiant damage that was dealt to it.”
Sword of the Gods – I have some issues with the second bullet point. It says; Additionally, during this time you use a bonus action or your reaction—but not both in the same round—to make a melee weapon attack. Reactions require a triggering event, you can’t use one without a trigger. Therefore, the wording would need to follow the structure, when blank blanks, you may blank. I would probably change the ability to; you may use a bonus action to make a melee weapon attack.
If you want to add an additional reaction trigger that would probably push the transformation into the 1 minute duration power level.
Hope this is helpful.
First of all, thank you everybody for your feedback! I knew there was some work to be done, and it's super helpful to hear what you guys have to say!
Purifying Blade -- I can definitely see your guys' points about a duration. I was hoping to sort of mimic the pact of the blade's functionality, mostly because pact blades are one of my favorite bits of 5e. With that said, I can see that it doesn't really fit in a Paladin Oath. I'm a little torn on how to modify this. The idea of making it a 1 minute duration and allowing damage to be radiant is interesting, but if your Strength is equal or better (for some reason) than your Charisma, then I feel like it would suffer in terms of usefulness. Maybe I'm missing an easy fix to that specific issue.
Shroud of Radiance -- Aoe Hellish Rebuke? Hell yeah, lol. I like that idea a lot, and I'd like to adhere as much to the Oath formula as possible.
Oath Spells -- Good catch, thanks. Do the spells themselves seem fair? The levels should be the same as other Oaths, but I want to make sure I didn't pick spells that should stay out of an off-caster's arsenal.
Relentless Purification -- So, we've replaced this ability's spot with the hellish aura, since that follows suit with other oaths. That means this ability takes the open Channel Divinity slot. All of you mentioned this, and I agree it needs tweaking either way. I was considering having the ability allow the paladin to expend lay on hands to regain the slots, since that balances and limits the ability, as well as continuing the theme of an aggressive Oath. So, maybe: "Once per day, when you finish a short rest, you may expend 5 points of lay on hands to regain a level one spell slot. For higher level slots, increase the cost by one for every spell level above one. (I'm sure there's a better way to word that). Does this seem like a good compromise here? And, would it outshine Purifying Blade to the point of typically being the better option? I don't want one to be marginalized, given that you can only use one each day.
Zealous Vitality -- Maybe I'm misinterpreting the rules for temp. hit points, but you only gain them if a source would give you more than you already have, right? So, you'd only have to track it if the total temp. hit point gain would be greater than what you have currently?
Sword of the Gods -- Yes, I agree that the wording on the last bit is odd. Mostly, I wasn't sure which action type would better compliment the Paladin's loadout. I'd definitely like to either put a trigger on the reaction, or just make it a bonus action.
Other Bits -- Thanks for the notes on the written bits. I knew this would be a bit rough on the outset, so I'll make a pass to clean it up soon.
Thanks again, guys, and any further input would also be greatly appreciated!
The difficulty with making the pact blade work with a paladin vs. making it work with a warlock, is that Warlock's have a patron at level 1, Oath's don't happen until level 3. Unless you are starting the game at a higher level, it is really difficult to ditch strength or dexterity as your main stat, especially when there is not a proper slot to fit it into until level 7. The whole ability might need to be replaced because I am not sure that there is an easy solution.
I don't think you should worry too much about the fairness of the spells themselves, if they match the oath from a flavour perspective, and are SRD, then I think that is good. I wouldn't worry too much about balance on the early passes as long as it is in the ballpark.
That is more or less correct, when you gain temp. hit points and already have temp. hit points you choose which pool you want to use; but I was thinking more about how it might interact with an aura that deals radiant damage. This could lead to a lot of triggers of this ability during a round of combat, my proposed fix was closer to the ability that the Long Death monks get, because I thought it would be closer to the flavour of the oath.
Purifying Blade -- Yeah, I might have to re-think this.
Oath Spells -- Okay, cool. That's good to know. Thanks :D
Zealous Vitality -- Ah, I see! So, hopefully changing the aura to a hellish rebuke-esque ability will alleviate that some, then.